Ross Lyon is #2

[Scollop]

Wrong. Lyon was offered a new deal by St Kilda in 2011 (as was promised to him and his management)....but he was already contracted up until 2012.

Hinkley is not contracted beyond this year.

His management agreed in good faith that Ross would commit to St Kilda beyond 2012, but Ross ditched them and negotiated behind their back on his own.

The club made some errors, but ultimately it was Ross's choice to leave St Kilda in 2011 for significantly more money (and good luck to him).

https://www.afl.com.au/news/41587/lyon- ... nettlefold

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/lyo ... 1k7w8.html

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-ki ... 6b22744874

[takeaway]

Wrong. Lyon was offered a new deal by St Kilda in 2011 (as was promised to him and his management)....but he was already contracted up until 2012.

Hinkley is not contracted beyond this year.

His management agreed in good faith that Ross would commit to St Kilda beyond 2012, but Ross ditched them and negotiated behind their back on his own.

The club made some errors, but ultimately it was Ross's choice to leave St Kilda in 2011 for significantly more money (and good luck to him).

https://www.afl.com.au/news/41587/lyon- ... nettlefold

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/lyo ... 1k7w8.html

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-ki ... 6b22744874

That's one side, the other is that Lyon and Saints were negotiating a new contract for 2012 onwards virtually all 2011 season, Ross hadn't agreed to Saint's offer, and Nettlefold dithered around, not closing the deal.
Ross exercised a clause in his contract and went for a much better offer.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/this- ... 9945f9e8d7

[Scollop]

Wrong. Lyon was offered a new deal by St Kilda in 2011 (as was promised to him and his management)....but he was already contracted up until 2012.

Hinkley is not contracted beyond this year.

His management agreed in good faith that Ross would commit to St Kilda beyond 2012, but Ross ditched them and negotiated behind their back on his own.

The club made some errors, but ultimately it was Ross's choice to leave St Kilda in 2011 for significantly more money (and good luck to him).

https://www.afl.com.au/news/41587/lyon- ... nettlefold

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/lyo ... 1k7w8.html

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-ki ... 6b22744874

That's one side, the other is that Lyon and Saints were negotiating a new contract for 2012 onwards virtually all 2011 season, Ross hadn't agreed to Saint's offer, and Nettlefold dithered around, not closing the deal.
Ross exercised a clause in his contract and went for a much better offer.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/this- ... 9945f9e8d7

Yes. You are adding a layer.

BUT...at no point in time did St Kilda decide they didn't want Ross Lyon to coach in 2012 or beyond.

We did not sack Lyon or refuse to deal with his manager.

Hinkley does not have a contract beyond this year and the Port Adelaide FC told him and his management that they would not enter negotiations until the final home and away rounds at the death knell when his current term expires.

If you want to blame St Kilda for Ross walking out on us, I can't change your mind. That's totally fine if you think it was Nettlefolds fault

[skeptic]

Wrong. Lyon was offered a new deal by St Kilda in 2011 (as was promised to him and his management)....but he was already contracted up until 2012.

Hinkley is not contracted beyond this year.

His management agreed in good faith that Ross would commit to St Kilda beyond 2012, but Ross ditched them and negotiated behind their back on his own.

The club made some errors, but ultimately it was Ross's choice to leave St Kilda in 2011 for significantly more money (and good luck to him).

https://www.afl.com.au/news/41587/lyon- ... nettlefold

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/lyo ... 1k7w8.html

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-ki ... 6b22744874

Correct. It was well publicised as well that mid year RL stopped contract negotiations (either having already been approached by Freo or approached shortly after behind everyone’s back) and you may also recall that it was publicly announced that his management agreed to terms and were going to sign on the Monday following the weekend right before he signed with Freo.
Clearly a last ditch ploy by RL to pressure Freo to up their offer.

Unfortunately there’s some 1984 level reality warping going on here with some forumites about this stuff though… even though the facts are very clearly published with statements from the Saints, RL and the various media outlets pretty confirming this and the above, the denial is rock solid. The fact is RL saw an opportunity to get a deal with Freo and push for a flag immediately opposed to rebuilding. It was a good deal and he was smart to take advantage.

The other side is that he clearly dealt with us in bad faith… out right lied and then sunk the boots into our club painting the picture that we were incompetent when he was in fact stalling and sabotaging. That’s what happened.

[B.M]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

[Scollop]

Even that article from takeaway has the journalist using the words several times that 'Lyon walked out on St Kilda.' As I said, Nettlefold and the board made many mistakes but we didn't sack him or deny him a contract extension at the end of 2011

He said
She said
My wife said
Mrs Hardwick said
My manager said
My lawyer said

Ross Lyon played everyone. He was in complete control. His manager was actively seeking expressions of interest from other clubs.

He alone, decided to deal with Fremantle and tried to blame St Kilda for the fact that he was looking for the best financial deal available to him. He took an opportunity to help his family and set himself up to secure their future, but let's call it what it was... and remember ALL the factors affecting his personal circumstances.

Was it St Kilda's fault that his share investing went sour?

[skeptic]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That is simply not true on so many levels.
He was already contracted
After stopping negotiations earlier in the year, the Saints reopened them mid year and RL’s camp stopped them til seasons end
And RL agreed to terms just before he signed with Freo. It made the papers at the time.

Once Freo got in the picture, he only ever wanted to sign with them… and why wouldn’t he? Premiership ready list and he was more valuable to them then us. It’s openly acknowledged that they approached him mid year.

He always had the option of merely saying Freo approached him to get the Saints to up their deal but he never did. Why? Because he didn’t want to. His next contract with us pbly would have ended with a sacking after 3 years of a slow rebuild in tough times and his stocks drop.

He got Freo to a Grandfinal and the narrative of super coach continued. Even after he was sacked, he remained a highly sought after commodity.

In terms of what was best for him… it was a very clear no brainer. He’d have been a fool to not do it. He didn’t have sink the boots into us however for not extending him when he was actively not wanting to sign. That 8 hours BS narrative he created is just that… BS. Thats what he deserves criticism for

[takeaway]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That is simply not true on so many levels.
He was already contracted
After stopping negotiations earlier in the year, the Saints reopened them mid year and RL’s camp stopped them til seasons end
And RL agreed to terms just before he signed with Freo. It made the papers at the time.

Once Freo got in the picture, he only ever wanted to sign with them… and why wouldn’t he? Premiership ready list and he was more valuable to them then us. It’s openly acknowledged that they approached him mid year.

He always had the option of merely saying Freo approached him to get the Saints to up their deal but he never did. Why? Because he didn’t want to. His next contract with us pbly would have ended with a sacking after 3 years of a slow rebuild in tough times and his stocks drop.

He got Freo to a Grandfinal and the narrative of super coach continued. Even after he was sacked, he remained a highly sought after commodity.

In terms of what was best for him… it was a very clear no brainer. He’d have been a fool to not do it. He didn’t have sink the boots into us however for not extending him when he was actively not wanting to sign. That 8 hours BS narrative he created is just that… BS. Thats what he deserves criticism for

I say rubbish. "It's openly acknowledged", " it made the papers", let's see some proof.

Pointless arguing, two sides to every story, only the parties involved know the truth, but I'm principally blaming Saints management/Nettlefold.

Anyway, would Ross staying have improved Saint's results 2012 onwards? Who knows?

[B.M]

It was a complete blindside (even to his manager!)

When Freo decided to sign Lyon

How could it be widely acknowledged- rubbish

Didn’t Mark Harvey and Lyon share the same management group! And Harvey was contracted at Freo - who NO ONE thought was looking for another coach. Harvey was shell shocked!

StK didn’t sack Lyon but also failed to give him another contract

So in other words fkd up

[Scollop]

I split up from my business partner and walked out on him 20 years ago.

No matter what the story was or whose fault it was, it was ultimately my decision to walk out.

I had that control and so did Ross Lyon. He exercised his right to accept a better offer and he walked away from an inferior deal.

I am still curious as to why he was questioning the talent and character and resilience of the list in early 2011...just 6 months after they played off in a Grand Final

Maybe negotiations had started with Freo a lot earlier than was revealed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter?

[B.M]

Was Lyon lying when he stated it happened in 8 hours?

[skeptic]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That is simply not true on so many levels.
He was already contracted
After stopping negotiations earlier in the year, the Saints reopened them mid year and RL’s camp stopped them til seasons end
And RL agreed to terms just before he signed with Freo. It made the papers at the time.

Once Freo got in the picture, he only ever wanted to sign with them… and why wouldn’t he? Premiership ready list and he was more valuable to them then us. It’s openly acknowledged that they approached him mid year.

He always had the option of merely saying Freo approached him to get the Saints to up their deal but he never did. Why? Because he didn’t want to. His next contract with us pbly would have ended with a sacking after 3 years of a slow rebuild in tough times and his stocks drop.

He got Freo to a Grandfinal and the narrative of super coach continued. Even after he was sacked, he remained a highly sought after commodity.

In terms of what was best for him… it was a very clear no brainer. He’d have been a fool to not do it. He didn’t have sink the boots into us however for not extending him when he was actively not wanting to sign. That 8 hours BS narrative he created is just that… BS. Thats what he deserves criticism for

I say rubbish. "It's openly acknowledged", " it made the papers", let's see some proof.

Pointless arguing, two sides to every story, only the parties involved know the truth, but I'm principally blaming Saints management/Nettlefold.

Anyway, would Ross staying have improved Saint's results 2012 onwards? Who knows?

Go look it up then. Heck you’d pbly find the articles with the individuals interviewed here because this was discussed and over analysed to death here. I’m not doing your homework for you.

On your latter question… as I said above, either pbly not or marginal improvement at best. Heck maybe he might have etched out another finals series or two but IMO we still would have been middling at most.

Never any question that RL correctly identified what was the better option for him.

[takeaway]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That is simply not true on so many levels.
He was already contracted
After stopping negotiations earlier in the year, the Saints reopened them mid year and RL’s camp stopped them til seasons end
And RL agreed to terms just before he signed with Freo. It made the papers at the time.

Once Freo got in the picture, he only ever wanted to sign with them… and why wouldn’t he? Premiership ready list and he was more valuable to them then us. It’s openly acknowledged that they approached him mid year.

He always had the option of merely saying Freo approached him to get the Saints to up their deal but he never did. Why? Because he didn’t want to. His next contract with us pbly would have ended with a sacking after 3 years of a slow rebuild in tough times and his stocks drop.

He got Freo to a Grandfinal and the narrative of super coach continued. Even after he was sacked, he remained a highly sought after commodity.

In terms of what was best for him… it was a very clear no brainer. He’d have been a fool to not do it. He didn’t have sink the boots into us however for not extending him when he was actively not wanting to sign. That 8 hours BS narrative he created is just that… BS. Thats what he deserves criticism for

I say rubbish. "It's openly acknowledged", " it made the papers", let's see some proof.

Pointless arguing, two sides to every story, only the parties involved know the truth, but I'm principally blaming Saints management/Nettlefold.

Anyway, would Ross staying have improved Saint's results 2012 onwards? Who knows?

Go look it up then. Heck you’d pbly find the articles with the individuals interviewed here because this was discussed and over analysed to death here. I’m not doing your homework for you.

On your latter question… as I said above, either pbly not or marginal improvement at best. Heck maybe he might have etched out another finals series or two but IMO we still would have been middling at most.

Never any question that RL correctly identified what was the better option for him.

I previously quoted an article with one of the individuals interviewed. Didn't you read it?

So you make some statements with no evidence and expect others to "look them up" ? Sound logic.

[Otiman]

I wasn't expecting this thread to get spicy but it's a good conversation.

The timing to compare it to Hinkley this year is interesting. It's all post season.

If Hinkley went to Gold Coast now, that would be hugely different. But if he hasn't got a contract come 2 weeks post finals, that's going to look similar.

Where there's smoke there's fire, and there was definitely smoke coming from both sides of the table on the Lyon/Saints 2011 mess.

[skeptic]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That is simply not true on so many levels.
He was already contracted
After stopping negotiations earlier in the year, the Saints reopened them mid year and RL’s camp stopped them til seasons end
And RL agreed to terms just before he signed with Freo. It made the papers at the time.

Once Freo got in the picture, he only ever wanted to sign with them… and why wouldn’t he? Premiership ready list and he was more valuable to them then us. It’s openly acknowledged that they approached him mid year.

He always had the option of merely saying Freo approached him to get the Saints to up their deal but he never did. Why? Because he didn’t want to. His next contract with us pbly would have ended with a sacking after 3 years of a slow rebuild in tough times and his stocks drop.

He got Freo to a Grandfinal and the narrative of super coach continued. Even after he was sacked, he remained a highly sought after commodity.

In terms of what was best for him… it was a very clear no brainer. He’d have been a fool to not do it. He didn’t have sink the boots into us however for not extending him when he was actively not wanting to sign. That 8 hours BS narrative he created is just that… BS. Thats what he deserves criticism for

I say rubbish. "It's openly acknowledged", " it made the papers", let's see some proof.

Pointless arguing, two sides to every story, only the parties involved know the truth, but I'm principally blaming Saints management/Nettlefold.

Anyway, would Ross staying have improved Saint's results 2012 onwards? Who knows?

Go look it up then. Heck you’d pbly find the articles with the individuals interviewed here because this was discussed and over analysed to death here. I’m not doing your homework for you.

On your latter question… as I said above, either pbly not or marginal improvement at best. Heck maybe he might have etched out another finals series or two but IMO we still would have been middling at most.

Never any question that RL correctly identified what was the better option for him.

I previously quoted an article with one of the individuals interviewed. Didn't you read it?

So you make some statements with no evidence and expect others to "look them up" ? Sound logic.

My position has been consistent for 10 years and I’ve posted multiple times. It’s there. Articles, quotes, all of it. I can’t be bothered trying to search for it now ad it’s pointless regardless.

You can inform yourself or you can’t. I know what the facts are and I can follow/interpret the sequence of events that demonstrate them.

Plainly put… you’re wrong. You can read up about it and educate yourself to the very clear and obvious truth. Or you can let your opinion be determined by emotional bias.

[B.M]

You can’t just state someone is wrong without proof?!

Lyon went for money and security- no doubt

But did so because it wasn’t offered at StK - either purposefully or through negligence or incompetence

[Scollop]

I wasn't expecting this thread to get spicy but it's a good conversation.

The timing to compare it to Hinkley this year is interesting. It's all post season.

If Hinkley went to Gold Coast now, that would be hugely different. But if he hasn't got a contract come 2 weeks post finals, that's going to look similar.

Where there's smoke there's fire, and there was definitely smoke coming from both sides of the table on the Lyon/Saints 2011 mess.

Would you expect Ken Hinkley to say he's interested in the Gold Coast job? Of course not.

Would you expect his management to say in April that they'd be entertaining or listening to expressions of interest from other clubs?

At the start of the year in Round 2, Port got thumped by Collingwood 135 to 64. Did Kenny come out in the media and question the list or question the character of his players?

Have another read of what Ross Lyon said about our team 6 months after a Grand Final (read what Lyon said in the ABC article). These are supposed to be his charges. They are supposed to support each other. How many generals have you heard shittcan their soldiers after returning from the frontline?

He could have said 'It wasn't our day' or 'we'll need to make some changes' but what he said was a direct and callous attack on the character and resilience and quality of the players and player leadership.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908

So...I wouldn't be surprised if he was secretly engaged in talks with Fremantle from April of that year.

[skeptic]

You can’t just state someone is wrong without proof?!

Lyon went for money and security- no doubt

But did so because it wasn’t offered at StK - either purposefully or through negligence or incompetence

You’re doing the same thing.

Besides… it’s been posted. Repeatedly.

Just because you can’t be bothered looking for it and want me to go through 10 years of posts for you doesnt put the onus on me. If you’re passionate about the truth look for it. I know what it is. I remember the interviews and they were recorded

The biggest alarm bell should be the fact that Freo and RL’s management confined they approached him mid year

[Otiman]

Would you expect Ken Hinkley to say he's interested in the Gold Coast job? Of course not.

Would you expect his management to say in April that they'd be entertaining or listening to expressions of interest from other clubs?

Not publically, but yes to both of those questions. Good negotiating tactics.

[Scollop]

Would you expect Ken Hinkley to say he's interested in the Gold Coast job? Of course not.

Would you expect his management to say in April that they'd be entertaining or listening to expressions of interest from other clubs?

Not publically, but yes to both of those questions. Good negotiating tactics.

so...why wouldn't Ross have done the same in 2011 after he's just blown most of his life savings

Who is more cunning? Ross or Ken?

[Otiman]

Would you expect Ken Hinkley to say he's interested in the Gold Coast job? Of course not.

Would you expect his management to say in April that they'd be entertaining or listening to expressions of interest from other clubs?

Not publically, but yes to both of those questions. Good negotiating tactics.

so...why wouldn't Ross have done the same in 2011 after he's just blown most of his life savings

Who is more cunning? Ross or Ken?

Difference is Ken's team is #2 on the ladder. It helps.

[takeaway]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That is simply not true on so many levels.
He was already contracted
After stopping negotiations earlier in the year, the Saints reopened them mid year and RL’s camp stopped them til seasons end
And RL agreed to terms just before he signed with Freo. It made the papers at the time.

Once Freo got in the picture, he only ever wanted to sign with them… and why wouldn’t he? Premiership ready list and he was more valuable to them then us. It’s openly acknowledged that they approached him mid year.

He always had the option of merely saying Freo approached him to get the Saints to up their deal but he never did. Why? Because he didn’t want to. His next contract with us pbly would have ended with a sacking after 3 years of a slow rebuild in tough times and his stocks drop.

He got Freo to a Grandfinal and the narrative of super coach continued. Even after he was sacked, he remained a highly sought after commodity.

In terms of what was best for him… it was a very clear no brainer. He’d have been a fool to not do it. He didn’t have sink the boots into us however for not extending him when he was actively not wanting to sign. That 8 hours BS narrative he created is just that… BS. Thats what he deserves criticism for

I say rubbish. "It's openly acknowledged", " it made the papers", let's see some proof.

Pointless arguing, two sides to every story, only the parties involved know the truth, but I'm principally blaming Saints management/Nettlefold.

Anyway, would Ross staying have improved Saint's results 2012 onwards? Who knows?

Go look it up then. Heck you’d pbly find the articles with the individuals interviewed here because this was discussed and over analysed to death here. I’m not doing your homework for you.

On your latter question… as I said above, either pbly not or marginal improvement at best. Heck maybe he might have etched out another finals series or two but IMO we still would have been middling at most.

Never any question that RL correctly identified what was the better option for him.

I previously quoted an article with one of the individuals interviewed. Didn't you read it?

So you make some statements with no evidence and expect others to "look them up" ? Sound logic.

My position has been consistent for 10 years and I’ve posted multiple times. It’s there. Articles, quotes, all of it. I can’t be bothered trying to search for it now ad it’s pointless regardless.

You can inform yourself or you can’t. I know what the facts are and I can follow/interpret the sequence of events that demonstrate them.

Plainly put… you’re wrong. You can read up about it and educate yourself to the very clear and obvious truth. Or you can let your opinion be determined by emotional bias.

Ha Ha. A person who sprouts rubbish, who is asked to at least present some snippet of data to prove what they are saying to at least enable their view to be considered, states continually that they can't be bothered to search for it. Doesn't that tell you something? Case dismissed your worship, no evidence presented, prejudicial conjecture.

As you say, multiple posts by you over 10 years, and all wrong.

[Teflon]

Lyon was NOT offered a new contract in 2011

The club was waiting until the end of the season to make a decision and in all honesty we’re looking for a change (as they were going down the Pelchen path and Lyon and Pelchen despised each other!)

In Lyons own words
Fremantle did in 8 hours what StK couldn’t do in 8 months
Offer him a deal for 2012 and beyond

That’s correct
Lyon has stated it himself and Roo has also been on public record stating the delay by Nettlefold etc hedging bets went against re-signing him
Lyon also had lost money financially and wasn’t in a good position
Freo pounced
Saints went Pelchen as saviour

[Otiman]

It's clear from recent times that Ross has no interest in playing mind games, not getting involved in "coach selection processes" at Carlton or Essendon.

It's no surprise in hindsight that dicking him around lead him to look elsewhere.

[Scollop]

He should have gone through with that process at Carlton. They're making a late charge for top 8

I know he'll be busy working out our defensive strategies and where all players need to stand against North Melbourne, but say hi to him this week if you get a chance