Our midfield

[Saint2]

A big part of getting into a final under Ratts, was due to the influence of Paddy, who surprised everyone- his ruck work was totally superior to Roma, could tap to the mids reliably plus he could take a strong mark in the forward half and kick goals. When Paddy started to fade, got suspended and injured or was unavailable, the team lost a lot of oomph, plus Jones's injury problems saw him lose form too. Our midfield and rucks are not in great shape. Crouch works hard, gets his hands on the ball, so compared to the rest of the midfield he looks ok, but he is not impacting on games. At this stage I would bring Heath in for a couple of games, just to expose him to the level he needs to be at.

[B.M]

Interested to hear your thoughts

Who had the better season
Ryder in 2020
Marshall in 2019

[nostalgicsaint]

Interested to hear your thoughts

Who had the better season
Ryder in 2020
Marshall in 2019

Ryder 2020 imo

[shanegrambeau]

A big part of getting into a final under Ratts, was due to the influence of Paddy, who surprised everyone- his ruck work was totally superior to Roma, could tap to the mids reliably plus he could take a strong mark in the forward half and kick goals. When Paddy started to fade, got suspended and injured or was unavailable, the team lost a lot of oomph, plus Jones's injury problems saw him lose form too. Our midfield and rucks are not in great shape. Crouch works hard, gets his hands on the ball, so compared to the rest of the midfield he looks ok, but he is not impacting on games. At this stage I would bring Heath in for a couple of games, just to expose him to the level he needs to be at.

Church

[B.M]

It’s funny what the brain remembers

Marshall was RU B&F in 2019 and was regarded as amongst the hottest prospects in the AFL

He averaged
28.5 HOs
17.8 possessions
4 Marks (1 CM)
0.4 Goals
5.5 clearances
3.5 Tackles
7 Brownlow Votes

Ryder 2020 - 8th in the B&F
20.9 HOs
8.0 possessions
2.0 clearances
2.1 marks
0.7 goals
2.5 tackles
1 Brownlow Vote

I think Ryder was impactful- but on sheer numbers
Marshall in 2019 was outstanding

[Ghost Like]

Possibly more impactful with less possessions. I think the brain values the team result. Ryder made our midfield walk taller and look better. Our side was a better team with Ryder as #1 ruck & RoMa as #2.

RoMa, unlucky not to win the B&F in 2019, but besides RoMa & Seb, who really cares? Personally, I want my team playing good, solid team football resulting in finals. The individual accolades are just that, for the individuals.

So my answer, give me Ryder's 2020 & give me St Kilda's 2020.

[Saint2]

Possibly more impactful with less possessions. I think the brain values the team result. Ryder made our midfield walk taller and look better. Our side was a better team with Ryder as #1 ruck & RoMa as #2.

RoMa, unlucky not to win the B&F in 2019, but besides RoMa & Seb, who really cares? Personally, I want my team playing good, solid team football resulting in finals. The individual accolades are just that, for the individuals.

So my answer, give me Ryder's 2020 & give me St Kilda's 2020.

That was a factor- the midfield played well when Ryder was doing well, and playing a #1 ruck, but it's all history.

[B.M]

Let’s see how Ryder’s recruitment effected Rowan

His 2019 stats are above

2020
14.0 disposals
14.5 HOs
4.0 Marks
0.7 goals
2.5 clearances
2.0 Tackles

Ryder was a good player in his own right - although a little overrated imo

It did not however allow Marshall to continue to excel in his best position

Helped us in 2020

Not now

[Ghost Like]

Let’s see how Ryder’s recruitment effected Rowan

His 2019 stats are above

2020
14.0 disposals
14.5 HOs
4.0 Marks
0.7 goals
2.5 clearances
2.0 Tackles

Ryder was a good player in his own right - although a little overrated imo

It did not however allow Marshall to continue to excel in his best position

Helped us in 2020

Not now

And there you have it, you are all about the individual. It really doesn't matter how the side goes as long as players get plenty of possessions, votes and awards.

I preferred the St Kilda side with two very good rucks, working in tandem and getting their side and their midfield in a position to compete in finals.

[Teflon]

Let’s see how Ryder’s recruitment effected Rowan

His 2019 stats are above

2020
14.0 disposals
14.5 HOs
4.0 Marks
0.7 goals
2.5 clearances
2.0 Tackles

Ryder was a good player in his own right - although a little overrated imo

It did not however allow Marshall to continue to excel in his best position

Helped us in 2020

Not now

And there you have it, you are all about the individual. It really doesn't matter how the side goes as long as players get plenty of possessions, votes and awards.

I preferred the St Kilda side with two very good rucks, working in tandem and getting their side and their midfield in a position to compete in finals.

It’s what happens when your whole game analysis is binary to stats …you miss things
No question of Ryder’s impact - on mids particularly
Only a fool tries to suggest otherwise
Marshall is interesting…not an elite tap ruck
Unreliable set shot
What is he?

[Teflon]

When Roma burst onto the scene he became one of the better rucks in the AFL, and as we all know more for his ability as a follower than his tapwork.

Problem 1/ now is that there are now more good rucks about, especially in the tapwork department, and also that most have a height and/or leap advantage over Roma. So Roma is getting routinely beaten in the HO department.

Club knows this which is why they chased Draper. It is also why we took Heath in the mi season draft, who may or may not make it.

Roma is now really a No2 ruck or or ruck that needs to share the ruckwork.

Problem 2/ is that our midfield which was always average at best, is now currently just about the worst on the AFL. Steele is sadly out of forma, as are others .

Now if you have gun mids (We do not, and Steele even when in form is not in that truly top bracket of game changing mids) they can still win the ball to a losing ruck. A winning ruck can help to offset am average or poor midfield. But when you have both a losing ruck and a poor midfield like we do at present then we are in for a world of hurt as we start every ball up or centre square bounce on the backfoot.

We all know we lack gun mids. Club knows it too, and hence the DeGoey chase last season. A player like DeGoey would makes a huge difference to our midfield.

Hannas was a big reason we won the final we did. But as we all know that while he was pure class, that he could not get on the parl. Jones has his faults, but his plusses in burst pace and aggression added a dimension to our very vanilla slow paced midfield. Crouch is a decent enough mid, but he is no gun, and really just blends in with our other vanilla mids. So yes an upgrade on Dunstan, but he is a support act, and not the main act.

Pou looks like he will be a star . Owens as well. However, while I hope they will become midfield beasts, they may well not. I think Pou slipped for this reason that the clubs before us preferred players who they believe will be genuine full time mids. So Pou may well become the better player, but he may not become a better mid than those drafted earlier.


Overall, very recently our drafting seems to have improved. But we now lack what we have long lacked. An out and out gun mid or two. With Roma now slipping down the pecking order of AFL rucks we now lack this too. And without the quality mids, Roma getting beaten in the HOs hurts us even more than if we had some gun mids.


So I think the Club knows what we need, But filling that need is a lot harder than , than knowing you have that need. It seems like most of the better mids we have tried to attract have said no. So we get the ones with injury records, or who have flaws like Crouch.

Draft wise our picks have often been not quite early enough to gain those gun mids. So we have resorted to try and play players who are flankers as mids in Gresh, and the HBs Clark and perhaps Coffield who the recruiters indicated could both become mids.

We gained Hill in large part as is partner not only wanted to return to Vic, but wanted to return to the Bayside area giving us the rare inside running on a player. But Hill is not an inside mid at all of course.


So come draft trade/draft time I think the Club knows what we need. But it is going to need something extraordinary to gain the players that they , and we all, know we need.

I am not sure we have the players to trade. But you can see say Gresh being let go to try and gain what we need either directly or though improving our draft hand. Maybe a deal where we help another club with their salary cap.

One thing is clear though, just gaining one gun, while nice is not going to cut it. The Club is going to probably have to be quite brutal at both the end of this season, and next if it wats to actually evolve us into being a genuine Top 4 team and a contender.

Minor changes will just see us remain as a middling club.

Organic growth will also likely see us remain as a middling club, as that will not rectify our midfield and ruck anytime soon. Well
not unless both the Pou and Owens both turn in genuine midfield guns.

You’ve summed it up well
It’s why this off-season is crucial
Traditional “hold all good players add 1 draft pick” won’t cut it …or it will but it will take 4 years
Gresham on current output gonna push us up into that top draft echelon??? No chance
I think supporters might have to prepare to see a favourite son go..

[CQ SAINT]

Let’s see how Ryder’s recruitment effected Rowan

His 2019 stats are above

2020
14.0 disposals
14.5 HOs
4.0 Marks
0.7 goals
2.5 clearances
2.0 Tackles

Ryder was a good player in his own right - although a little overrated imo

It did not however allow Marshall to continue to excel in his best position

Helped us in 2020

Not now

A little over rated in your opinion?
That's interesting, he actually made the All Australian team in 2017 .
I thought you'd be all over him and still singing his praises.

Seriously though, we made a final and Paddy starred. Rate that. Enough said really, but while Ryder impacted on Marshall's game, he greatly improved the rest of the midfield. It's not like Marshall had no opportunity to prove himself. He is a very big midfielder and an average ruckman, that dominates the the 10 ruckman ranked below him, as tap ruckmen.

[B.M]

Had a very good finals game

And some other games he played well

But the fact is, he averaged 8 possessions per game as a part of the midfield group and 2 clearances - 20 hit outs
Marshall
Averaged 18 possessions and 5.5 clearances

I think Paddy was a fan favourite - that means fans inflate his output.

I suppose it depends how you rate hit outs vs marks/possessions for a ruckman - a ruckman is part of a midfield group that needs to impact around the ground - otherwise we would head to America and get a 7’ athlete with an 80 vertical

Paddy was a GOOD player - who we didn’t need imo

It’s like us recruiting Jason Dunstall when we have Tony Lockett - you’re better off spending the money on something you don’t have!

He wasn’t the main reason we played finals in 2020
He finished 8th in the B&F
He got 1 Brownlow vote - Marshall polled 8
He averaged 20 hit outs (8 to advantage)

I would have Jack Steele, Dan Butler and Jack Billings as more important

Btw
Love Paddy as a player - great career - especially at Port

[CQ SAINT]

I'm not underrating Marshall but this whole why recruit Ryder, when you have Marshall is just silly, and enough with the B&F hindsight bulls*** too please.

Steele smashed the B&F out the park and was massive in the Brownlow count and made all Australian, he broke out, if you get near him, ask him about Paddy's influence on the teams clearance work and the impact that had on freeing up Steele.

Jones went pretty well too, puts pace on a clearance, from a well placed tap.

Howard (3rd) was fairly influential, when your mids get first touch, the defence flourish and there was less than 15 votes between 4th (Marshall 19 games) and 8th (Ryder 14 games).

So, how is his 10 extra kicks, 5.5 of them banged on his foot in hope of some chaos, via being the biggest man attacking a ground ball in ruck competitions, looking now.

He also had the added bonus of drifting to the rear and having Wilkie and Howard tussle their keys while Rowan intercepted.

Very handy midfielder Ro, but he is ineffective going forward, is just an average ruckman and can't kick straight.

While Steele was completely outstanding, Butler, Howard, Jones and Ryder took 4 of the top 8.

Seb Ross dropped off a bit and so did Marshall from 2019, they weren't bad by any measure, but the recruiters did their job, COVID seemed to put a handicap on everyone other team other than us and we'd have been f***ed without our four mature recruits.

Marshall and Ross were terrific in 2019, but there wasn't much else after Steele and Billings.

You seem to be stuck in the Richo era and happy with stars that shine brighter than the s*** around them.

Ratten, Ryder, Butler, Jones and Howard were outstanding in their new found home and they enabled change that previously saw average players being rewarded with B&F votes because we were terrible. Yes, we won a few here and there, but we were s***.

Some supporters are so blinkered by the odd good performance pre 2020, and those good ol days of Ross and Steven winning everything but games, some people can't even see how much the list has improved in three years, they dont want to see it.

If we had a fully fit Paddy Ryder now, we'd be in the top 4.

Marshall is a ruckman, it's great he can get clearances and take marks, but his job is to help the little blokes get the ball first. Ratten pressure the centre square so much that Marshall was often the only mid moving.

[Yorkeys]

Its a frustration to all concerned.
Will be gradually re-engineered but in the meantime we just wait. And cough up games.
Poor current mids must know their time in the centre of things is coming to an end and that they are not held in particularly high regard as players.
Clark back will help. Next year you hope Steele is properly fit.
Looking forward to who we recruit in trade period.

[Otiman]

Every good side has a gun midfield Duo. We have nobody in that category right now. It's also part of the reason Geelong have been struggling without Selwood and Dangerfield.

Surely these changes would give us a competitive midfield, not for a premiership but we could bat deep into finals.

Fit Clark (not just uninjured)
Fit Steele
Fit Jones
Experience into Windhager
Owens freed up
Sinclair in rotation

[Ghost Like]

Forget 2019 & 2020 B.M., let's focus on 2023, in particular the games against Hawthorn, Richmond and Brisbane. You, yourself, noted that Marshall had been monstered, giving opposition mids "silver service", effectively making our average mids, below average.

Marshall in those games...
Haw: 17D 6M 17HO - Reeves: 7D 1M 29HO / Meek: 11D 5M 13HO
Rich: 17D 3M 29HO - Nankervis: 11D 0M 47HO
Bris: 13D 7M 30HO - McInerney: 10D 2M 34HO

So the question is, what's more important: possessions and marks against wingers or hitouts / presence, especially at centre bounces?

I like RoMa, a ripping bloke, great clubman, best 2nd ruck / utility in the league, unfortunately he's playing 1st ruck to an average midfield - a combination that will ultimately deliver disappointing losses.

[Yorkeys]

Forget 2019 & 2020 B.M., let's focus on 2023, in particular the games against Hawthorn, Richmond and Brisbane. You, yourself, noted that Marshall had been monstered, giving opposition mids "silver service", effectively making our average mids, below average.

Marshall in those games...
Haw: 17D 6M 17HO - Reeves: 7D 1M 29HO / Meek: 11D 5M 13HO
Rich: 17D 3M 29HO - Nankervis: 11D 0M 47HO
Bris: 13D 7M 30HO - McInerney: 10D 2M 34HO

So the question is, what's more important: possessions and marks against wingers or hitouts / presence, especially at centre bounces?

I like RoMa, a ripping bloke, great clubman, best 2nd ruck / utility in the league, unfortunately he's playing 1st ruck to an average midfield - a combination that will ultimately deliver disappointing losses.

Maybe discount BNE, all players seemed drained of energy by the mood of the occasion. Richmond just beaten by an All Australian, but not around the ground? Hawthorn not sure, but I understand their ruck is taller than Gawn, that's when you need the support players to show initiative. Rowan is a remarkable player in a devilishly difficult competitive position/role. I think.

[B.M]

I just don’t believe 2 number 1 ruckmen works.

Not working at Melbourne with two on the best ruckmen in the game playing together

Marshall thrives on being the number 1 imo

His impact on games goes beyond hit outs, he basically adds another mid - hit outs (unless they are to adv) are probably the most overrated stat.

Even the great tap ruckmen like Gawn, Natanui, Ryder etc only average 10 or so a game and conceded about 4 - so they are plus 6 or so.

[Impatient Sainter]

Every good side has a gun midfield Duo. We have nobody in that category right now. It's also part of the reason Geelong have been struggling without Selwood and Dangerfield.

Surely these changes would give us a competitive midfield, not for a premiership but we could bat deep into finals.

Fit Clark (not just uninjured)
Fit Steele
Fit Jones
Experience into Windhager
Owens freed up
Sinclair in rotation

I totally agree our A grade midfield cupboard is bare. Steele was our only A grader and he has been playing restricted through injury for most of the year. Crouch is an A grade extractor but has zero hurt factor with the ball.

I dont believe Clark is our midfield answer, he is far too slow on the spread from clearances. Jones can play but is inconsistent and mostly injured.

With so many others seriously out of form that leaves Sinclair to pinch hit, which is obviously not good enough.
Its interesting though until the Port game our midfield were compeitive, after that the wheels fell off big time. I wonder if its the coaches effecting set ups?

[Ghost Like]

Forget 2019 & 2020 B.M., let's focus on 2023, in particular the games against Hawthorn, Richmond and Brisbane. You, yourself, noted that Marshall had been monstered, giving opposition mids "silver service", effectively making our average mids, below average.

Marshall in those games...
Haw: 17D 6M 17HO - Reeves: 7D 1M 29HO / Meek: 11D 5M 13HO
Rich: 17D 3M 29HO - Nankervis: 11D 0M 47HO
Bris: 13D 7M 30HO - McInerney: 10D 2M 34HO

So the question is, what's more important: possessions and marks against wingers or hitouts / presence, especially at centre bounces?

I like RoMa, a ripping bloke, great clubman, best 2nd ruck / utility in the league, unfortunately he's playing 1st ruck to an average midfield - a combination that will ultimately deliver disappointing losses.

Maybe discount BNE, all players seemed drained of energy by the mood of the occasion. Richmond just beaten by an All Australian, but not around the ground? Hawthorn not sure, but I understand their ruck is taller than Gawn, that's when you need the support players to show initiative. Rowan is a remarkable player in a devilishly difficult competitive position/role. I think.

I really enjoy a lot of your posts Yorkeys but really, "all players seemed drained of energy by the mood of the occasion"??? I am sorry but if players, in their 3rd game after a bye, in a match against a team we need to beat to remain clear of our competitors, on our home deck are "drained of energy" then we have more issues than a plodding midfield, a beaten ruck, key defenders losing form and a dysfunctional forward half.

[Ghost Like]

I just don’t believe 2 number 1 ruckmen works.

Not working at Melbourne with two on the best ruckmen in the game playing together

Marshall thrives on being the number 1 imo

His impact on games goes beyond hit outs, he basically adds another mid - hit outs (unless they are to adv) are probably the most overrated stat.

Even the great tap ruckmen like Gawn, Natanui, Ryder etc only average 10 or so a game and conceded about 4 - so they are plus 6 or so.

So your complaints about Marshall being monstered and the oppo mids getting silver service was nonsense? And you are also happy with those disposal numbers for "basically" another mid? And you are happy with how he is getting back to assist our defenders and getting forward, making himself dangerous?

I think RoMa is down on confidence and in desperate need of another big man to help him out. I read what you wrote about Hayes, I agree, he would be able to assist but ultimately we need a genuine #1 ruck, not a #1.5 or #2.

[Saint2]

I just don’t believe 2 number 1 ruckmen works.

Not working at Melbourne with two on the best ruckmen in the game playing together

Marshall thrives on being the number 1 imo

His impact on games goes beyond hit outs, he basically adds another mid - hit outs (unless they are to adv) are probably the most overrated stat.

Even the great tap ruckmen like Gawn, Natanui, Ryder etc only average 10 or so a game and conceded about 4 - so they are plus 6 or so.

So your complaints about Marshall being monstered and the oppo mids getting silver service was nonsense? And you are also happy with those disposal numbers for "basically" another mid? And you are happy with how he is getting back to assist our defenders and getting forward, making himself dangerous?

I think RoMa is down on confidence and in desperate need of another big man to help him out. I read what you wrote about Hayes, I agree, he would be able to assist but ultimately we need a genuine #1 ruck, not a #1.5 or #2.

A friend up in Brisbane is close to some of the Lions folk, who were agreeing that their ruck advantage against us was a big factor in their win

[Scollop]

Steele smashed the B&F out the park and was massive in the Brownlow count and made all Australian, he broke out, if you get near him, ask him about Paddy's influence on the teams clearance work and the impact that had on freeing up Steele.

Jones went pretty well too, puts pace on a clearance, from a well placed tap.

Jones went pretty well...in 2020

Seb Ross went pretty well in 2017

We used to bag Billy Longer but he consistently served it up to Sebby on a silver platter and helped Ross win his B&F in 2017.

Footywire stats below comparing Longer in 2017 vs Ryder 2020. Paddy took contested marks. Billy didn't. Paddy knew how to play as a KPF. Longer didn't...but he was a fantastic tap ruck

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 020&type=A

[Scollop]

We are experimenting without Tom Campbell in our midfield in 2023

Pity because we sure could have used his services in the match against Brisbane

I'm not saying he should be in each week. I'm not a huge fan of Tom's and I won't be upset if he's delisted, but if you have an asset that can possibly help you win games, why wouldn't you give him a game?