Our midfield

[B.M]

His last month has been poor by his standards

Crouch has been average

Steele inconsistent since returning

Gresham has been poor as a mid

Sinclair was ineffective last game as a mid

Clark - has been ok - nothing special

Whole midfield group has been struggling

Not sure why that is, maybe Lenny and Lyon need to figure it out

[saynta]

His last month has been poor by his standards

Crouch has been average

Steele inconsistent since returning

Gresham has been poor as a mid

Sinclair was ineffective last game as a mid

Clark - has been ok - nothing special

Whole midfield group has been struggling

Not sure why that is, maybe Lenny and Lyon need to figure it out

Ain't that the truth. Maybe they all need a session with a shrink.

[Impatient Sainter]

His last month has been poor by his standards
Crouch has been average
Steele inconsistent since returning
Gresham has been poor as a mid
Sinclair was ineffective last game as a mid
Clark - has been ok - nothing special
Whole midfield group has been struggling
Not sure why that is, maybe Lenny and Lyon need to figure it out

Agree BM the effort levels start and finish with the midfield and all mentioned have been very ordinary, excluding Sinclair. RTB has a history of sticking fat with older players but even the coaches would have to be concerned with the drop off. As Beno mentioned in his thread its almost identical to last year, the players have no where to hide - they cant blame Ratt's this year!

The club simply cant continue to ignore the lack of speed and class we have through our midfield. It should be our priority this off season to find more quality mids, whether by trade or the draft its just got to happen.

[DJ Higgins]

If nothing else I hope we learn that if you have an all Australian in your team you play him in that position. By moving him into the mid field toi weaken the back more than you strengthen the midfield

[Otiman]

Watching the Carlton game tonight reminds me how much we were pantsed in the midfield in that game.

[Teflon]

His last month has been poor by his standards

Crouch has been average

Steele inconsistent since returning

Gresham has been poor as a mid

Sinclair was ineffective last game as a mid

Clark - has been ok - nothing special

Whole midfield group has been struggling

Not sure why that is, maybe Lenny and Lyon need to figure it out

Crouch has been excellent- NFI
He was the ONLY mid last week still busting a gut
He’s top 3 BnF right now easily
Shane his midfield mates let him down

[B.M]

What did Crouch do that was excellent last week?

He was ok - the best of a smashed midfield.

His last month has been average compared to his first 7

[Otiman]

What did Crouch do that was excellent last week?

He was ok - the best of a smashed midfield.

His last month has been average compared to his first 7

You said it yourself, stood up when those around him were rubbish.

[Teflon]

What did Crouch do that was excellent last week?

He was ok - the best of a smashed midfield.

His last month has been average compared to his first 7

You said it yourself, stood up when those around him were rubbish.

Oh dear..
He’s starting to forget what he’s saying
Geezus Martin!

[CQ SAINT]

What did Crouch do that was excellent last week?

He was ok - the best of a smashed midfield.

His last month has been average compared to his first 7

Sounds like Ross in 2017-19.

[Freebird]

Other than Sinclair, we do not have a midfielder that excites when they have ball in hand. Where are our Burkes/Harvey/Winmar?

[B.M]

Well you’ve just name 3 all time greats

Burke was a legend - not sure he was exciting with the ball

Winmar was not an inside mid - but was definitely great with the footy

Harvey - 2nd best player I’ve seen in a StK jumper and the greatest ever saint!

[lewdogs]

The closest we have to a champion in the midfield is Steele. A two time All Australian, gun player of the comp when he's on form. He's the key to the midfield.

Windy can definitely add something. Surely he's primed to come in and have an impact now.

Owens can also add something in there but can we afford to take him out of the forward line?

With Clark out I think Seb will stay in and get a chance to find form. The guy I'd be tempted to drop is Gresham. Seriously when will the penny drop for him? Not sure it will be at St Kilda unfortunately. Bloody shame as he's so talented but Steele's comments after the Pies game that he admitted he didnt get his preparation right was alarming for mine.

[Scollop]

BUMP

FoxFooty rated our mids tonight and repeated what I wrote back on page 2 of this thread ( Crouch's rankings are showing he is less effective than our other mids)

Not sure if 'On The Coach' go by Champion Data ranking but they said Gresh, Steele and Ross were rated Average, while Crouch was rated Below Average.

That might seem a bit odd because obviously Crouch's disposal numbers and some of his clearance numbers in some games were higher, but it's actually looking at effectiveness at clearances and it's also based on the number of stoppages attended.

E.g. In the game against Hawthorn he was our best mid in a group that was smashed overall. He attended a lot of clearances, and ended up winning a few here and there, but the opposition numbers were much higher and more effective.

Mich Owens and Hunter Clark and Gresham don't attend as many stoppages but their clearances ratio per stoppage attendance is much higher than Crouch. Steele also has a much higher ratio number of clearances to stoppage attended.

Our midfield is ranked 17th in the league at clearances

[Yorkeys]

Gone reactive. Caught watching Neale a few times Friday. None seemed to consider just rushing Big O (BO). Positioning unintelligent? Must have lost confidence from the universal criticism. But most are one trick ponies. What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

[Scollop]

What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

It's a situation created by the coach and match committee. Explore what you have on your list. Don't just pay lip service to the word 'exploration'.

The 'team' shouldn't consist of coaches pets and coaches favourites. Selection integrity and competition for spots erodes when you do not play guys who have performed creditibly in the VFL.

The guys who get 'managed' and come in fresh could also play at a higher level so it's better for our prospects of making finals

It should have started 6-8 weeks ago. We seem to be reactionary as you said and they've been conservative. They haven't been brave with team selection

[Teflon]

What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

It's a situation created by the coach and match committee. Explore what you have on your list. Don't just pay lip service to the word 'exploration'.

The 'team' shouldn't consist of coaches pets and coaches favourites. Selection integrity and competition for spots erodes when you do not play guys who have performed creditibly in the VFL.

The guys who get 'managed' and come in fresh could also play at a higher level so it's better for our prospects of making finals

It should have started 6-8 weeks ago. We seem to be reactionary as you said and they've been conservative. They haven't been brave with team selection

Oh by what absolute garbage
“Explore what you have on the list”
Who’s your smoking guns against Neale - Billing’s LMFAO Bytel?? I couldn’t laugh harder
Selection integrity is all wonderful when you have players to choose from …
I’ll tell you what selection integrity isn’t
Telling the world you are not going to drop Brad Hill no matter how bad he plays…as your previous hero did
Tk **** we arseholed that clown!

[Scollop]

What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

It's a situation created by the coach and match committee. Explore what you have on your list. Don't just pay lip service to the word 'exploration'.

The 'team' shouldn't consist of coaches pets and coaches favourites. Selection integrity and competition for spots erodes when you do not play guys who have performed creditibly in the VFL.

The guys who get 'managed' and come in fresh could also play at a higher level so it's better for our prospects of making finals

It should have started 6-8 weeks ago. We seem to be reactionary as you said and they've been conservative. They haven't been brave with team selection

Oh by what absolute garbage
“Explore what you have on the list”
Who’s your smoking guns against Neale - Billing’s LMFAO Bytel?? I couldn’t laugh harder
Selection integrity is all wonderful when you have players to choose from …
I’ll tell you what selection integrity isn’t
Telling the world you are not going to drop Brad Hill no matter how bad he plays…as your previous hero did
Tk **** we arseholed that clown!

Ratten at least achieved something with this list. We won a final.

If Ross Lyon came out and said “We’re not going to drop Crouch” you’d be agreeing with the senior coach.

You don’t think Dougs is even worthy of staying on AFL list. If Lyon said that Douggs isn’t getting dropped you’d backflip on everything you’d criticised Howard for previously.

I’ll tell you what. Stop licking arse

[Teflon]

What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

It's a situation created by the coach and match committee. Explore what you have on your list. Don't just pay lip service to the word 'exploration'.

The 'team' shouldn't consist of coaches pets and coaches favourites. Selection integrity and competition for spots erodes when you do not play guys who have performed creditibly in the VFL.

The guys who get 'managed' and come in fresh could also play at a higher level so it's better for our prospects of making finals

It should have started 6-8 weeks ago. We seem to be reactionary as you said and they've been conservative. They haven't been brave with team selection

Oh by what absolute garbage
“Explore what you have on the list”
Who’s your smoking guns against Neale - Billing’s LMFAO Bytel?? I couldn’t laugh harder
Selection integrity is all wonderful when you have players to choose from …
I’ll tell you what selection integrity isn’t
Telling the world you are not going to drop Brad Hill no matter how bad he plays…as your previous hero did
Tk **** we arseholed that clown!

Ratten at least achieved something with this list. We won a final.

If Ross Lyon came out and said “We’re not going to drop Crouch” you’d be agreeing with the senior coach.

You don’t think Dougs is even worthy of staying on AFL list. If Lyon said that Douggs isn’t getting dropped you’d backflip on everything you’d criticised Howard for previously.

I’ll tell you what. Stop licking arse

I only lick arse when it’s good lickin that makes
Your incoherent ramblings is the opposite of that
You’re all over the place
And fancy hanging on your hat on a 2020 Covid interrupted season when the following year showed where we really were
Shameful

[Scollop]

What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

It's a situation created by the coach and match committee. Explore what you have on your list. Don't just pay lip service to the word 'exploration'.

The 'team' shouldn't consist of coaches pets and coaches favourites. Selection integrity and competition for spots erodes when you do not play guys who have performed creditibly in the VFL.

The guys who get 'managed' and come in fresh could also play at a higher level so it's better for our prospects of making finals

It should have started 6-8 weeks ago. We seem to be reactionary as you said and they've been conservative. They haven't been brave with team selection

Oh by what absolute garbage
“Explore what you have on the list”
Who’s your smoking guns against Neale - Billing’s LMFAO Bytel?? I couldn’t laugh harder
Selection integrity is all wonderful when you have players to choose from …
I’ll tell you what selection integrity isn’t
Telling the world you are not going to drop Brad Hill no matter how bad he plays…as your previous hero did
Tk **** we arseholed that clown!

Ratten at least achieved something with this list. We won a final.

If Ross Lyon came out and said “We’re not going to drop Crouch” you’d be agreeing with the senior coach.

You don’t think Dougs is even worthy of staying on AFL list. If Lyon said that Douggs isn’t getting dropped you’d backflip on everything you’d criticised Howard for previously.

I’ll tell you what. Stop licking arse

I only lick arse when it’s good lickin that makes
Your incoherent ramblings is the opposite of that
You’re all over the place
And fancy hanging on your hat on a 2020 Covid interrupted season when the following year showed where we really were
Shameful

Give yourself an uppercut. Give yourself a couple of days off from the forum and get some rest Teflon

[Teflon]

What to do. Wait for the new generation, won't that thrill the mids group and inspire the team, not.

It's a situation created by the coach and match committee. Explore what you have on your list. Don't just pay lip service to the word 'exploration'.

The 'team' shouldn't consist of coaches pets and coaches favourites. Selection integrity and competition for spots erodes when you do not play guys who have performed creditibly in the VFL.

The guys who get 'managed' and come in fresh could also play at a higher level so it's better for our prospects of making finals

It should have started 6-8 weeks ago. We seem to be reactionary as you said and they've been conservative. They haven't been brave with team selection

Oh by what absolute garbage
“Explore what you have on the list”
Who’s your smoking guns against Neale - Billing’s LMFAO Bytel?? I couldn’t laugh harder
Selection integrity is all wonderful when you have players to choose from …
I’ll tell you what selection integrity isn’t
Telling the world you are not going to drop Brad Hill no matter how bad he plays…as your previous hero did
Tk **** we arseholed that clown!

Ratten at least achieved something with this list. We won a final.

If Ross Lyon came out and said “We’re not going to drop Crouch” you’d be agreeing with the senior coach.

You don’t think Dougs is even worthy of staying on AFL list. If Lyon said that Douggs isn’t getting dropped you’d backflip on everything you’d criticised Howard for previously.

I’ll tell you what. Stop licking arse

I only lick arse when it’s good lickin that makes
Your incoherent ramblings is the opposite of that
You’re all over the place
And fancy hanging on your hat on a 2020 Covid interrupted season when the following year showed where we really were
Shameful

Give yourself an uppercut. Give yourself a couple of days off from the forum and get some rest Teflon

I’m not the one hanging my hat on Ratten 2020 Covid final win
Oh the glory ….can I buy the dvd?

[B.M]

Let’s hope Ross gets us to a finals win at some stage?

[Yorkeys]

The fan bar gets lower, belittling a great finals win where Paddy played outstanding, ran himself into the ground. Subsequently beat by side that went top. Bulldogs seemed to be trying that night and were disappointed. So disrespectful and petty to slag off at that win.

[saintsRrising]

When Roma burst onto the scene he became one of the better rucks in the AFL, and as we all know more for his ability as a follower than his tapwork.

Problem 1/ now is that there are now more good rucks about, especially in the tapwork department, and also that most have a height and/or leap advantage over Roma. So Roma is getting routinely beaten in the HO department.

Club knows this which is why they chased Draper. It is also why we took Heath in the mi season draft, who may or may not make it.

Roma is now really a No2 ruck or or ruck that needs to share the ruckwork.

Problem 2/ is that our midfield which was always average at best, is now currently just about the worst on the AFL. Steele is sadly out of forma, as are others .

Now if you have gun mids (We do not, and Steele even when in form is not in that truly top bracket of game changing mids) they can still win the ball to a losing ruck. A winning ruck can help to offset am average or poor midfield. But when you have both a losing ruck and a poor midfield like we do at present then we are in for a world of hurt as we start every ball up or centre square bounce on the backfoot.

We all know we lack gun mids. Club knows it too, and hence the DeGoey chase last season. A player like DeGoey would makes a huge difference to our midfield.

Hannas was a big reason we won the final we did. But as we all know that while he was pure class, that he could not get on the parl. Jones has his faults, but his plusses in burst pace and aggression added a dimension to our very vanilla slow paced midfield. Crouch is a decent enough mid, but he is no gun, and really just blends in with our other vanilla mids. So yes an upgrade on Dunstan, but he is a support act, and not the main act.

Pou looks like he will be a star . Owens as well. However, while I hope they will become midfield beasts, they may well not. I think Pou slipped for this reason that the clubs before us preferred players who they believe will be genuine full time mids. So Pou may well become the better player, but he may not become a better mid than those drafted earlier.


Overall, very recently our drafting seems to have improved. But we now lack what we have long lacked. An out and out gun mid or two. With Roma now slipping down the pecking order of AFL rucks we now lack this too. And without the quality mids, Roma getting beaten in the HOs hurts us even more than if we had some gun mids.


So I think the Club knows what we need, But filling that need is a lot harder than , than knowing you have that need. It seems like most of the better mids we have tried to attract have said no. So we get the ones with injury records, or who have flaws like Crouch.

Draft wise our picks have often been not quite early enough to gain those gun mids. So we have resorted to try and play players who are flankers as mids in Gresh, and the HBs Clark and perhaps Coffield who the recruiters indicated could both become mids.

We gained Hill in large part as is partner not only wanted to return to Vic, but wanted to return to the Bayside area giving us the rare inside running on a player. But Hill is not an inside mid at all of course.


So come draft trade/draft time I think the Club knows what we need. But it is going to need something extraordinary to gain the players that they , and we all, know we need.

I am not sure we have the players to trade. But you can see say Gresh being let go to try and gain what we need either directly or though improving our draft hand. Maybe a deal where we help another club with their salary cap.

One thing is clear though, just gaining one gun, while nice is not going to cut it. The Club is going to probably have to be quite brutal at both the end of this season, and next if it wats to actually evolve us into being a genuine Top 4 team and a contender.

Minor changes will just see us remain as a middling club.

Organic growth will also likely see us remain as a middling club, as that will not rectify our midfield and ruck anytime soon. Well
not unless both the Pou and Owens both turn in genuine midfield guns.

[saintsRrising]

When Roma burst onto the scene he became one of the better rucks in the AFL, and as we all know more for his ability as a follower than his tapwork.

Problem 1/ now is that there are now more good rucks about, especially in the tapwork department, and also that most have a height and/or leap advantage over Roma. So Roma is getting routinely beaten in the HO department.

Club knows this which is why they chased Draper. It is also why we took Heath in the mi season draft, who may or may not make it.

Roma is now really a No2 ruck or or ruck that needs to share the ruckwork.

Problem 2/ is that our midfield which was always average at best, is now currently just about the worst on the AFL. Steele is sadly out of forma, as are others .

Now if you have gun mids (We do not, and Steele even when in form is not in that truly top bracket of game changing mids) they can still win the ball to a losing ruck. A winning ruck can help to offset am average or poor midfield. But when you have both a losing ruck and a poor midfield like we do at present then we are in for a world of hurt as we start every ball up or centre square bounce on the backfoot.

We all know we lack gun mids. Club knows it too, and hence the DeGoey chase last season. A player like DeGoey would makes a huge difference to our midfield.

Hannas was a big reason we won the final we did. But as we all know that while he was pure class, that he could not get on the parl. Jones has his faults, but his plusses in burst pace and aggression added a dimension to our very vanilla slow paced midfield. Crouch is a decent enough mid, but he is no gun, and really just blends in with our other vanilla mids. So yes an upgrade on Dunstan, but he is a support act, and not the main act.

Pou looks like he will be a star . Owens as well. However, while I hope they will become midfield beasts, they may well not. I think Pou slipped for this reason that the clubs before us preferred players who they believe will be genuine full time mids. So Pou may well become the better player, but he may not become a better mid than those drafted earlier.


Overall, very recently our drafting seems to have improved. But we now lack what we have long lacked. An out and out gun mid or two. With Roma now slipping down the pecking order of AFL rucks we now lack this too. And without the quality mids, Roma getting beaten in the HOs hurts us even more than if we had some gun mids.


So I think the Club knows what we need, But filling that need is a lot harder than , than knowing you have that need. It seems like most of the better mids we have tried to attract have said no. So we get the ones with injury records, or who have flaws like Crouch.

Draft wise our picks have often been not quite early enough to gain those gun mids. So we have resorted to try and play players who are flankers as mids in Gresh, and the HBs Clark and perhaps Coffield who the recruiters indicated could both become mids.

We gained Hill in large part as is partner not only wanted to return to Vic, but wanted to return to the Bayside area giving us the rare inside running on a player. But Hill is not an inside mid at all of course.


So come draft trade/draft time I think the Club knows what we need. But it is going to need something extraordinary to gain the players that they , and we all, know we need.

I am not sure we have the players to trade. But you can see say Gresh being let go to try and gain what we need either directly or though improving our draft hand. Maybe a deal where we help another club with their salary cap.

One thing is clear though, just gaining one gun, while nice is not going to cut it. The Club is going to probably have to be quite brutal at both the end of this season, and next if it wats to actually evolve us into being a genuine Top 4 team and a contender.

Minor changes will just see us remain as a middling club.

Organic growth will also likely see us remain as a middling club, as that will not rectify our midfield and ruck anytime soon. Well
not unless both the Pou and Owens both turn in genuine midfield guns.