Are we seeing the old 2010 RTB traits

[SydneySainter]

As in, backing in role players whose on field numbers defy why they are being selected?

RTB V1 had C Jones, McQualter, Eddy and R Clarke, amongst others.

RTB V2 has Crouch, Ross, Paton and Poo, amongst others.

[1966]

You do realise Crouch is averaging 27 touches a game? Be close to leading B&F.

[SydneySainter]

Crouch had a good first month and is now plodding. I don’t know if he’s injured, but he’s not getting enough of the footy, he’s not damaging when he has it and he’s part of the in and under brigade that is continually getting smoked by bottom 6 opposition.

If he’s leading our B&F, then we’re a bottom six team.

[1966]

We just got beaten by the 16th team and he was clearly our best player yesterday with another 26 touches and a goal.

[Teflon]

Crouch had a good first month and is now plodding. I don’t know if he’s injured, but he’s not getting enough of the footy, he’s not damaging when he has it and he’s part of the in and under brigade that is continually getting smoked by bottom 6 opposition.

If he’s leading our B&F, then we’re a bottom six team.

Do show me the line breaking midfielder sitting in reserve Lyon has to wheel in to fix our poor spread from congestion that both Port, Crows and Hawks all exploited????
Pou and Crouch are not “role players”

[Scollop]

You do realise Crouch is averaging 27 touches a game? Be close to leading B&F.

The op has a list from 2010 and Clint Jones is first named and Crouch is first named for current list

I’m assuming the op is saying that Crouch is our 2023 version of C Jones (except Clint was faster and was a brilliant tagger imo )

[SydneySainter]

You do realise Crouch is averaging 27 touches a game? Be close to leading B&F.

The op has a list from 2010 and Clint Jones is first named and Crouch is first named for current list

I’m assuming the op is saying that Crouch is our 2023 version of C Jones (except Clint was faster and was a brilliant tagger imo )

Clint had one good season - 2009. Afterwards, he was consistently beaten by his opponent and yet we all still kept regarding him as one of the best taggers in the league.

[Scollop]

You do realise Crouch is averaging 27 touches a game? Be close to leading B&F.

The op has a list from 2010 and Clint Jones is first named and Crouch is first named for current list

I’m assuming the op is saying that Crouch is our 2023 version of C Jones (except Clint was faster and was a brilliant tagger imo )

Clint had one good season - 2009. Afterwards, he was consistently beaten by his opponent and yet we all still kept regarding him as one of the best taggers in the league.

Some people think Crouch was our ‘best’ player yesterday because he had the most possessions of any Saints player.

How many of his touches lead to scoring chains? How effective was he at clearances and at stopping his opponent at getting clearances? They’re legitimate questions.

I usually watch the replay before giving votes in the vote thread. I’m watching the 3rd quarter right now. How did he go in the last quarter when the game was up for grabs? He’s receiving the footy and the opposition lets him. You won’t see clubs have a hard tag on him because he doesn’t hurt you by foot.

The game started with Marshall, Steele, Gresham and Seb Ross in the middle. Crouch had been lining up at HFF. So far, I’ve seen Crouch used as an option when we were kicking out. Remember they were 4-10 at half time so there were lots of kick outs. He’s also racked up a few with close in handballs in congestion but last few weeks he’s down on contested possessions.

Anyhoo…back to the replay

[SydneySainter]

Crouch had a good first month and is now plodding. I don’t know if he’s injured, but he’s not getting enough of the footy, he’s not damaging when he has it and he’s part of the in and under brigade that is continually getting smoked by bottom 6 opposition.

If he’s leading our B&F, then we’re a bottom six team.

Do show me the line breaking midfielder sitting in reserve Lyon has to wheel in to fix our poor spread from congestion that both Port, Crows and Hawks all exploited????
Pou and Crouch are not “role players”

Okay, I accept your argument about Crouch.

However, while Pou has been good and clearly the potential for an exciting future, I don’t believe he demands his spot over Windhager or even Billings.

[Teflon]

Crouch had a good first month and is now plodding. I don’t know if he’s injured, but he’s not getting enough of the footy, he’s not damaging when he has it and he’s part of the in and under brigade that is continually getting smoked by bottom 6 opposition.

If he’s leading our B&F, then we’re a bottom six team.

Do show me the line breaking midfielder sitting in reserve Lyon has to wheel in to fix our poor spread from congestion that both Port, Crows and Hawks all exploited????
Pou and Crouch are not “role players”

Okay, I accept your argument about Crouch.

However, while Pou has been good and clearly the potential for an exciting future, I don’t believe he demands his spot over Windhager or even Billings.

Different players
Windhager has himself said he needs to work on few things - let him
Billing’s has had zero pre season and hasn’t exactly lit it up in reserves
It’s not just about swapping names on whiteboard for the sake of it …

[CQ SAINT]

Crouch had a good first month and is now plodding. I don’t know if he’s injured, but he’s not getting enough of the footy, he’s not damaging when he has it and he’s part of the in and under brigade that is continually getting smoked by bottom 6 opposition.

If he’s leading our B&F, then we’re a bottom six team.

Do show me the line breaking midfielder sitting in reserve Lyon has to wheel in to fix our poor spread from congestion that both Port, Crows and Hawks all exploited????
Pou and Crouch are not “role players”

Okay, I accept your argument about Crouch.

However, while Pou has been good and clearly the potential for an exciting future, I don’t believe he demands his spot over Windhager or even Billings.

Different players
Windhager has himself said he needs to work on few things - let him
Billing’s has had zero pre season and hasn’t exactly lit it up in reserves
It’s not just about swapping names on whiteboard for the sake of it …

I'm afraid that's the argument though.

[skeptic]

I don’t think this is a good comparison in terms of role players… one may suggest that some players aren’t good enough but Jones wasn’t a role player… neither was Raph Clark.
Accordingly… neither is Crouch or Poo.

A role player is one that’s primary contribution is measured on intangible aspects of the game… pressuring, guarding space, providing a contest etc

A negating role e.g. defenders or taggers aren’t really role players IMO as their contribution can generally be measured against their effect/their opponent. In this sense, I don’t know that Paton is a role player as he’s being used as a mid (to get the ball) as well as a defensive one.

The closest thing we’ve had to a role player this season is Cordy whose output was frequently measured outside of his direct positive contribution.

I think the concern is as I’ve mentioned before… it’s specific decision making with regards to who to persevere with, who to cut slack to and who has to really earn their spot.

Whilst on one level it’s been frustrating to see a few players seemingly carried over the last month whilst others can’t buy their way into the team…
RTB has done a reasonable job of trailing a lot of players through and hitting a good mix of youth and experience.

Like many, I’d prefer a bit more on the way of more wholesale changes regarding the things that I know aren’t working e.g lack of defensive pressure in the middle, drop under performers to give others opportunity on Sandy form etc

I take some comfort in the fact that I do think structurally and on balance the team is clearly better coaches and well drilled… and I also like the fact that despite injuries… the team overall seems fitter and are working harder.

I think Teffers has it right in that (and apologies if I’m wrong in my summation), there is a degree of assessment going on and I think a lot of players have been challenged to either show what they have in the seniors, or prove that they can do what is asked of them before getting a sustained run.

Personally, I pbly struggle more than most walking the right rope between “I told you all that RL was no good” and “I hope I was wrong and RTB gets us that second flag” but bottom line is that he’s exceeded expectations to this point and my bet is…
It’ll be a big off-season in 2023 and we pbly need that to get more of idea as to what he really has in mind

[Impatient Sainter]

The short answer is maybe.

There is no doubt our midfield have been well down in particular Ross & Steele, and in hindsight he should have brought others in. As he has said he is trying to create an environment of trust with the playing group, so why that develops I think we are going to continue to see the old traits.

The other question is who replaces those players you mentioned -

Crouch is our most consistent midfielder by a long way. He doesnt hurt teams by foot but he wins his share of the footy.
Phillipou is a kid we need to games into.
Byrnes has been up and down but has no replacement in waiting? Dont suggest Billings because he is still no where near fit or in form.
Paton has filled in where required due to injury to Webster?
Cordy was a role player but we had no one else?

When we have a full list fit and firing then we can make long term judgements, but until then it is a bit premature.

[SydneySainter]

I don’t think this is a good comparison in terms of role players… one may suggest that some players aren’t good enough but Jones wasn’t a role player… neither was Raph Clark.
Accordingly… neither is Crouch or Poo.

A role player is one that’s primary contribution is measured on intangible aspects of the game… pressuring, guarding space, providing a contest etc

A negating role e.g. defenders or taggers aren’t really role players IMO as their contribution can generally be measured against their effect/their opponent. In this sense, I don’t know that Paton is a role player as he’s being used as a mid (to get the ball) as well as a defensive one.

The closest thing we’ve had to a role player this season is Cordy whose output was frequently measured outside of his direct positive contribution.

I think the concern is as I’ve mentioned before… it’s specific decision making with regards to who to persevere with, who to cut slack to and who has to really earn their spot.

Whilst on one level it’s been frustrating to see a few players seemingly carried over the last month whilst others can’t buy their way into the team…
RTB has done a reasonable job of trailing a lot of players through and hitting a good mix of youth and experience.

Like many, I’d prefer a bit more on the way of more wholesale changes regarding the things that I know aren’t working e.g lack of defensive pressure in the middle, drop under performers to give others opportunity on Sandy form etc

I take some comfort in the fact that I do think structurally and on balance the team is clearly better coaches and well drilled… and I also like the fact that despite injuries… the team overall seems fitter and are working harder.

I think Teffers has it right in that (and apologies if I’m wrong in my summation), there is a degree of assessment going on and I think a lot of players have been challenged to either show what they have in the seniors, or prove that they can do what is asked of them before getting a sustained run.

Personally, I pbly struggle more than most walking the right rope between “I told you all that RL was no good” and “I hope I was wrong and RTB gets us that second flag” but bottom line is that he’s exceeded expectations to this point and my bet is…
It’ll be a big off-season in 2023 and we pbly need that to get more of idea as to what he really has in mind

Fair summary and I take onboard your point.

However, I do disagree about Clint. He was a tagger who was selected with the purpose to stop his opponent on winning the footy (a function even he struggled with after 2009), not on his ability to earn his own possessions.


That position by its nature is a role player.

[seano1]

The season was going to be pretty poor at the start with all the injuries but we started with some great wins on the back of our youngsters who are going to tire out at some stage . Having 30-40 touches mean fa except means you have more than they have it ….look at King 4 goals from what 10 touches . Our kicking is still crap our forwards all stand next to each other , apart from the smalls the rest should be moving out to drag opponents away

[Vortex]

A role player is defined as a player who lacks certain tools but has good concentration, generally excellent resilience and can stick to a task, this type of personality is also willing to please.

Generally at the elite level most coaches believe you can only carry about 4-6 of these types of players for a team capable of contending.

Currently we have about 8-12.

[Teflon]

A role player is defined as a player who lacks certain tools but has good concentration, generally excellent resilience and can stick to a task, this type of personality is also willing to please.

Generally at the elite level most coaches believe you can only carry about 4-6 of these types of players for a team capable of contending.

Currently we have about 8-12.

Agreed
Similar with footy fan sites and poor quality posters
You can carry 1 (saynta) or 2 (mehebabblelots) but after that it really hurts quality…

[Vortex]

A role player is defined as a player who lacks certain tools but has good concentration, generally excellent resilience and can stick to a task, this type of personality is also willing to please.

Generally at the elite level most coaches believe you can only carry about 4-6 of these types of players for a team capable of contending.

Currently we have about 8-12.

Agreed
Similar with footy fan sites and poor quality posters
You can carry 1 (saynta) or 2 (mehebabblelots) but after that it really hurts quality…

Don't you worry your little rat brain with quality...magic happens for those who believe hard enough.

[Teflon]

A role player is defined as a player who lacks certain tools but has good concentration, generally excellent resilience and can stick to a task, this type of personality is also willing to please.

Generally at the elite level most coaches believe you can only carry about 4-6 of these types of players for a team capable of contending.

Currently we have about 8-12.

Agreed
Similar with footy fan sites and poor quality posters
You can carry 1 (saynta) or 2 (mehebabblelots) but after that it really hurts quality…

Don't you worry your little rat brain with quality...magic happens for those who believe hard enough.

You keep using those little rat teeth to naw away at old Firey and I’m tipping he’s going to put his big Firey foot right up your clacker

[SaintJohno]

A role player is defined as a player who lacks certain tools but has good concentration, generally excellent resilience and can stick to a task, this type of personality is also willing to please.

Generally at the elite level most coaches believe you can only carry about 4-6 of these types of players for a team capable of contending.

Currently we have about 8-12.

Agreed
Similar with footy fan sites and poor quality posters
You can carry 1 (saynta) or 2 (mehebabblelots) but after that it really hurts quality…

Don't you worry your little rat brain with quality...magic happens for those who believe hard enough.

If the moderators don't know why the forum has less input than past years, this shite is a big part of it. This fwit just makes it unenjoyable, which I think is his aim tbh.

[skeptic]

8-12 role players Vortex!!!!

I want to say that’s nuts but in fairness I don’t understand where you’re coming from.

Can you name 10 or so of the players you call role players in our squad so I can get a sense of how you’re defining them.

[The Fireman]

A role player is defined as a player who lacks certain tools but has good concentration, generally excellent resilience and can stick to a task, this type of personality is also willing to please.

Generally at the elite level most coaches believe you can only carry about 4-6 of these types of players for a team capable of contending.

Currently we have about 8-12.

Agreed
Similar with footy fan sites and poor quality posters
You can carry 1 (saynta) or 2 (mehebabblelots) but after that it really hurts quality…

Don't you worry your little rat brain with quality...magic happens for those who believe hard enough.

You keep using those little rat teeth to naw away at old Firey and I’m tipping he’s going to put his big Firey foot right up your clacker

I'm a size 12
gotta catch him first .

[B.M]

I believe the most talented players are the ones who play roles most effectively

Stephen Milne performed the role of small forward better than any other - why
He had the most talent

Ability almost always wins out

[Teflon]

I believe the most talented players are the ones who play roles most effectively

Stephen Milne performed the role of small forward better than any other - why
He had the most talent

Ability almost always wins out

So you like Lyons “role player” approach?

[skeptic]

I believe the most talented players are the ones who play roles most effectively

Stephen Milne performed the role of small forward better than any other - why
He had the most talent

Ability almost always wins out

BM, do you really think that that’s what’s being discussed here though?

Does Nick Riewoldt who successfully made a career out of completing his role as a champion CHF that took worked hard, took contested marks, kicked lots of goals and led us to winning a ton of matches… does he belong in the conversation of ‘role players’.
I mean technically he did his role and all players have roles but can you not differentiate this conversation between a player like say: Cordy, Eddy, McQualter etc whose output wasn’t measured directly by their stats and other players that perhaps have higher expectations.