Where we are at

[Teflon]

I think we have to realise we are slowly coming down to where we really are as a side
I was amazed at difference in skill level today
As others have said - the few good ball users we have are all well known….easy to stop
What astounded me today was Hawks size, physicality
We looked like little kids….Howard next to Lewis was obvious
We were just brushed aside….how many times would we sprint at Hawks player to have them simply push us away??
Our skill level bringing ball into 50 is laughable…Ross Gresham…Crouch …take your pick but none of them can lazer point a pass into a lead up forward (heaven help us if the did lead up)
Hawks ran the ball length of the field out of our 50 with ease…that needs a coaching response.
So where are we?
8-12 is my view
I truly don’t care about being a 1 hit wonder in 7-8 making up numbers…..waste of time
If this is truly an exploration year…then ffs explore!
Change the midfield guard/mix now
Some reputations need to go …so be it
STOP pretending this workmanlike midfield is going to get us there - it won’t
Steele - just going
Ross - sane
Crouch - dropped off
All struggle when the ball goes outside …
We have to make change now
I back Lyon but his only weak spot….change…he needs to shake off stick with senior players mantle and start to mix things up and out a few careers on notice

[B.M]

So it’s the players now… not the coach?

[The_Dud]

So it’s the players now… not the coach?

It’s players who aren’t up to it and coaches who are afraid to make some tough calls

[Teflon]

So it’s the players now… not the coach?

Here’s Mr black n white
Asks questions answers none
Troll off little fella the big kids want to talk footy

[Teflon]

So it’s the players now… not the coach?

It’s players who aren’t up to it and coaches who are afraid to make some tough calls

Sensible Dud thank you - least you could muster a view and not an inane question ffs
Of course it’s players and the cattle we have to fix our woes ain’t deep either
That said coaching group does need to stop talking explore and start doing it

[whiskers3614]

Not much mrs Lyon said there is wrong!

[Teflon]

Not much mrs Lyon said there is wrong!

WTF you on about?
Will look for your whiny assed drivel after our next win
But you’ll be back on the bandwagon like a good fair-weathered fan ….

[Otiman]

Forward line - Tick. Doesn't need Membrey in it.
Backline - Tick.
Wings - (NWM, Wood, Hill) - Tick

Midfield - No good.

Part of this is players like Higgins, Butler, Gresham, Paton, Byrnes, Stocker, Phillipou - not really mids and can't fit them all forward and back. Philippou and Stocker probably the only two who could. Gresham good in a pinch for some impact.

[Teflon]

Forward line - Tick. Doesn't need Membrey in it.
Backline - Tick.
Wings - (NWM, Wood, Hill) - Tick

Midfield - No good.

Part of this is players like Higgins, Butler, Gresham, Paton, Byrnes, Stocker, Phillipou - not really mids and can't fit them all forward and back. Philippou and Stocker probably the only two who could. Gresham good in a pinch for some impact.

Good post
Interesting just listened to Lyons’s presser and I agree with his point - we got our right whack today and would’ve pinched it
He too made the midfield point…..lost 3 out of 4 quarters…needs to change
I think throw Owens and Windhagers run in there along with Sinclair and you start to see a different dynamic
Marshall is interesting….his tap work ain’t great…but I’m not sure you play another ruck….a Hayes would be handy
I’m wondering about defence…do you give Bsttle a spell and see how a Highmore goes??? He’s played consistently well in twos ….
Is Cordy a sensible replacement to give Howard a rest???
I don’t feel like we are aggressive down there at times as we could be ….
Anyway year of exploration let’s explore!

[mr six o'clock]

The problem with st kilda is the players and the coach .
We all know how Ross coaches . For him to be successful he needs 6+ champion players . Unfortunately at the moment we've only got a few .
Those in the football department would be happy where we are at the bye .
Ross has talked a few times about 14 / 7 . This gets you bottom half of the eight .
Can we get there , that is the problem.
I'd just like Ross to be honest and say he reckons we've got no chance this year , he's getting games into the kids who are our future whilst working out who can be traded or given the arse at the end of the year.
Then he's looking to go hard with free agents and trading to bring together a team that can play his game style.
My problem with that is I don't think his game style can win a flag .
It really requires everything to go prefect on the day .

[Vortex]

I think we have to realise we are slowly coming down to where we really are as a side
I was amazed at difference in skill level today
As others have said - the few good ball users we have are all well known….easy to stop
What astounded me today was Hawks size, physicality
We looked like little kids….Howard next to Lewis was obvious
We were just brushed aside….how many times would we sprint at Hawks player to have them simply push us away??
Our skill level bringing ball into 50 is laughable…Ross Gresham…Crouch …take your pick but none of them can lazer point a pass into a lead up forward (heaven help us if the did lead up)
Hawks ran the ball length of the field out of our 50 with ease…that needs a coaching response.
So where are we?
8-12 is my view
I truly don’t care about being a 1 hit wonder in 7-8 making up numbers…..waste of time
If this is truly an exploration year…then ffs explore!
Change the midfield guard/mix now
Some reputations need to go …so be it
STOP pretending this workmanlike midfield is going to get us there - it won’t
Steele - just going
Ross - sane
Crouch - dropped off
All struggle when the ball goes outside …
We have to make change now
I back Lyon but his only weak spot….change…he needs to shake off stick with senior players mantle and start to mix things up and out a few careers on notice

I'll keep saying the same thing I said the day Ross was announced coach, what's the magic trick? How do we wave the wand and get ourselves a list that can win flags?

Ross will need every bit of his 4 years to turn the list over, I'll keep saying that too.

Ross knew from the get go that the list will look completely different in 3 to 4 years.

[lewdogs]

The problem with st kilda is the players and the coach .
We all know how Ross coaches . For him to be successful he needs 6+ champion players . Unfortunately at the moment we've only got a few .
Those in the football department would be happy where we are at the bye .
Ross has talked a few times about 14 / 7 . This gets you bottom half of the eight .
Can we get there , that is the problem.
I'd just like Ross to be honest and say he reckons we've got no chance this year , he's getting games into the kids who are our future whilst working out who can be traded or given the arse at the end of the year.
Then he's looking to go hard with free agents and trading to bring together a team that can play his game style.
My problem with that is I don't think his game style can win a flag .
It really requires everything to go prefect on the day .

He isn't going to come out and say we are no chance. Ross doesn't give much away at all to the media, Wilkie just said in the post game interview that Ross said to the players their effort wasn't good enough but he won't go saying that in the media. His media stuff is mostly hyperbole and I don't mind that, we need a coach that can get the most out of the players and if he thinks that's the way then fine. Publicly tarring them each week like our recent coaches hasn't worked.

[B.M]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

[takeaway]

Forward line - Tick. Doesn't need Membrey in it.
Backline - Tick.
Wings - (NWM, Wood, Hill) - Tick

Midfield - No good.

Part of this is players like Higgins, Butler, Gresham, Paton, Byrnes, Stocker, Phillipou - not really mids and can't fit them all forward and back. Philippou and Stocker probably the only two who could. Gresham good in a pinch for some impact.

Good post
Interesting just listened to Lyons’s presser and I agree with his point - we got our right whack today and would’ve pinched it
He too made the midfield point…..lost 3 out of 4 quarters…needs to change
I think throw Owens and Windhagers run in there along with Sinclair and you start to see a different dynamic
Marshall is interesting….his tap work ain’t great…but I’m not sure you play another ruck….a Hayes would be handy
I’m wondering about defence…do you give Bsttle a spell and see how a Highmore goes??? He’s played consistently well in twos ….
Is Cordy a sensible replacement to give Howard a rest???
I don’t feel like we are aggressive down there at times as we could be ….
Anyway year of exploration let’s explore!

Agree give Owens and Windhager plenty of midfield time, but putting Sinclair in there a lot of the match didn't work. Did some good things, but a lot was in congestion, his influence was much reduced compared to the roaming HB role with bursts in midfield.
Missed his interceptions, may have even pinched it with him primarily around HB.

RTB might say a year of exploration, but we are in the 8, to the surprise of many, probably including Ross, so while we are a chance of finals it will be "measured exploration" , not wholesale changes.

[shanegrambeau]

Forward line - Tick. Doesn't need Membrey in it.
Backline - Tick.
Wings - (NWM, Wood, Hill) - Tick

Midfield - No good.

Part of this is players like Higgins, Butler, Gresham, Paton, Byrnes, Stocker, Phillipou - not really mids and can't fit them all forward and back. Philippou and Stocker probably the only two who could. Gresham good in a pinch for some impact.

Good post
Interesting just listened to Lyons’s presser and I agree with his point - we got our right whack today and would’ve pinched it
He too made the midfield point…..lost 3 out of 4 quarters…needs to change
I think throw Owens and Windhagers run in there along with Sinclair and you start to see a different dynamic
Marshall is interesting….his tap work ain’t great…but I’m not sure you play another ruck….a Hayes would be handy
I’m wondering about defence…do you give Bsttle a spell and see how a Highmore goes??? He’s played consistently well in twos ….
Is Cordy a sensible replacement to give Howard a rest???
I don’t feel like we are aggressive down there at times as we could be ….
Anyway year of exploration let’s explore!

In the name of exploration

#first up - congrats for people raising questions about midfield over the past 12 months and not being intimidated by the resident bully

Regarding the mids we just don’t have a choice
Ross Crouch and even Steele no choice

But let’s be imaginative

1) How about try Steele in a forward role? Like Toby Greene, Dusty
2) How about move Caminiti into defence ? Many a forward have reinvented themselves as defenders
3) Steele should not be captain but it is disrespectful to sack him..so make new team leaders..and call them something like group leaders
4) Too much celebration of Wilkie and Battle going on. Our defence is not solid
5) Jack Billings and Windy must go in but we have to be creative - and brutal and competitive …forget about Windy’s ideal development and use him in a l kamikaze role- do you want four points or not?

I would like to investigate to possibility of Caminiti

[SaintPav]

“I don’t know”

“I don’t know”

[Vortex]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

I laugh at this whole BS claim that this year is an "exploration" year.

Why is 1 year needed?

So does the magic happen at the end of the season? Do we start 2024 with a list that can contend after our "exploration" year?

Just makes me laugh when I hear fans roll out the "exploration" line like a clueless and desperate nutter.

A quality list + a quality coach = premiership.

It ain't rocket surgery

[SAINT-LEE]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

It was largely due to Ratten.
We were predictable to a fault.
We appeared to be stumbling against every obstacle.

There was a growing dissent from the hell of AR winning 34% then Ratten being marginally better at 50% but backpaddling.

A great coach & coaching staff will have a culture that drives excellence. It CAN have players with poor skills or lower talent...but their ATTITUDE creates an atmosphere to succeed.

I do see this with RTB & coaches. Definitely a year of ups & downs as players come to grip with systems & demands as well as coaches figure out what players can implement & who has to go.

So yes, Ratten WAS a problem.
Like AR, a great man, very nice, good human. But cant create a culture of excellence that over time weeds out the dross.

This system RTB wants to deploy, it doesnt always work. You do need quality players who are able to be mentored, luck with injury, fixtures, where other teams are at, etc etc .

Ratten would need far more ends to meet to make a grand final than RTB.

[SaintPav]

I don’t know maaate…Oooh. I don’t know..

[B.M]

I guess the proof will be in the pudding

Last year we won 11

Let’s see how this season goes

[skeptic]

Here’s what I don’t like…

We’ve had the same problem for a while with the ruck which is that Marshall isn’t great in the taps against bigger opponents, that we need a bigger/better relief ruck and that Rowan has what is becoming a chronic foot issue that hampers him.
In rounds 1-7 we should have tried Campbell a few times at BOG Cordy’s expense… we gained nothing from playing him for 3 quarters for a kick then subbing him.

Or at the very least… Marshall should have been rested 2-3 weeks ago and we could have given him a run them.

Next…
Steele is obviously impacted
Mason is playing through injury and his output is down

Ross’ last 4 returns = 16, 12, 19, 12. He’s clearly in bad form and needs to be dropped… against Port a month ago had 27 touches and was close to BOG. If he’s doing a defensive job it sucks… if it’s a role, it’s awful.

Paton is running around the middle not doing well and Byrnes is majorly overrated… kid needs to find a way to elevated his game. There’s a power element missing.

The damning thing though is the lack of defensive game…

Hawks had the top 5 possession winners on the ground
North had the top 3
Carlton had half a dozen get career best numbers
Adelaide had 5 players with 25+ touches

We’re giving up way too much ball use whilst Bytel and Windy are getting 30+ touches at Sandy and can’t buy a full game and Billing's omission is starting to stand out too

There’s a real lack of daring about RTB that’s coming through and I really don’t care for it. He needs to reward form at Sandy, punish inadequate efforts in the seniors and rest players when they need them.

Bytel might not have been the difference today but we gain nothing by persevering with Ross whilst he’s churning out those types of performances beyond robbing Jack of an opportunity to develop.

Windy might not have been the difference… but he pbly could have played as a defensive forward on Sicily.

[samuraisaint]

I was there today, and I was as disappointed as anybody.
Results this round have been nothing if not extraordinary. Luckily the round has been kind to us - Carlton, Geelong, Melbourne, and the Bulldogs have all lost.
The season goes one extra game this season, so the team are just going to have to stick fat. We have the 7 wins and the coaches and players have time to regroup after their break.
I'm not ready to give up on the season. Windhager seems to be going great in the reserves.

[lewdogs]

I was there today, and I was as disappointed as anybody.
Results this round have been nothing if not extraordinary. Luckily the round has been kind to us - Carlton, Geelong, Melbourne, and the Bulldogs have all lost.
The season goes one extra game this season, so the team are just going to have to stick fat. We have the 7 wins and the coaches and players have time to regroup after their break.
I'm not ready to give up on the season. Windhager seems to be going great in the reserves.

The competition is a lot more even than last year and if you're off your game you'll most likely lose.

We are in fifth place with three challenging but winnable games to come after the bye. How we respond and play after the bye will ultimately decide the season.

Hopefully it's a lot better than last year.

I'm with you, not losing hope yet.

[shanegrambeau]

I was there today, and I was as disappointed as anybody.
Results this round have been nothing if not extraordinary. Luckily the round has been kind to us - Carlton, Geelong, Melbourne, and the Bulldogs have all lost.
The season goes one extra game this season, so the team are just going to have to stick fat. We have the 7 wins and the coaches and players have time to regroup after their break.
I'm not ready to give up on the season. Windhager seems to be going great in the reserves.

Samurai
I know you are a stats nut
So tell me - us - is it common for anomalies just before the bye? Or are they omens of doom?

[Teflon]

Forward line - Tick. Doesn't need Membrey in it.
Backline - Tick.
Wings - (NWM, Wood, Hill) - Tick

Midfield - No good.

Part of this is players like Higgins, Butler, Gresham, Paton, Byrnes, Stocker, Phillipou - not really mids and can't fit them all forward and back. Philippou and Stocker probably the only two who could. Gresham good in a pinch for some impact.

Good post
Interesting just listened to Lyons’s presser and I agree with his point - we got our right whack today and would’ve pinched it
He too made the midfield point…..lost 3 out of 4 quarters…needs to change
I think throw Owens and Windhagers run in there along with Sinclair and you start to see a different dynamic
Marshall is interesting….his tap work ain’t great…but I’m not sure you play another ruck….a Hayes would be handy
I’m wondering about defence…do you give Bsttle a spell and see how a Highmore goes??? He’s played consistently well in twos ….
Is Cordy a sensible replacement to give Howard a rest???
I don’t feel like we are aggressive down there at times as we could be ….
Anyway year of exploration let’s explore!

Agree give Owens and Windhager plenty of midfield time, but putting Sinclair in there a lot of the match didn't work. Did some good things, but a lot was in congestion, his influence was much reduced compared to the roaming HB role with bursts in midfield.
Missed his interceptions, may have even pinched it with him primarily around HB.

RTB might say a year of exploration, but we are in the 8, to the surprise of many, probably including Ross, so while we are a chance of finals it will be "measured exploration" , not wholesale changes.

I think that’s right re measured exploration but I think long term being in the 8 papers over some cracks - we need top end picks and multiple of them…not more mid table finishes
Don’t agree re Sinclair think he, like most of our experienced players, had ordinary ganes
Ross was ordinary again and his disposal into 50 is a shambles - again I keep saying, until we move past his type in our midfield we won’t go forward
Steele was ordinary today as well
Crouch tried hard but impact was low
Reality is any side that has a midfield that can spread like Crows did to us and today and we are in strife
Still think in a season if you said to some at start of year with our injuries the way they’ve been (far worse than anything Ratten dealt with) you’d take it
But we aren’t playing good footy - the go fast stuff has dried up too
I’m ok with todays loss tbh - as Lyon said in the presser ….we got our right whack ….should’ve lost by 5 goals
A win today would’ve papered over cracks and this year we need to weed em out