Thomo on Saints TV Now - Live Stream

[Moods]

04-05
Was GTs fault

09-10
Was the players fault???

What fkn logic is that???

04-05
Role players
Powell, Peckett, Thompson, Voss, Guerra, Knobel/Ackland

Dal, Clarke, Ball, Riewoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Joey, Fisher, Raph, Gwilt, Gram
None of whom were in their prime yet - good players yes
All 60 games or less

This is effectively perpetuating the myth that GT got a team of 19/20 YO into prelims.

In 04/05/06 only Dal, Ball, Rooey & Kosi were core players, the others did not become core and guns until the Lyon era.

You have conveniently left out the GT core group of senior players in the 03-06 era and forgotten that some of the younger players in this period were AA:

GUNS in the 03-06 period & AA in GT era
Gehrig - AA 2004 and 3 X Coleman medalist
Harvey - AA 2003 and still a gun in 04/05/06
Hayes - AA 2003, 2005 & B&F winner
Jones - AA 2004
Hamill - at his peak in the GT era
Hudgton - at his peak in the GT era
Ball - AA 2005 & B&F at his peak in the GT era
Reiwoldt - AA 2004, 2005 & B&F - elevated under RL but still dual AA under GT
Dal - AA 2005 (2 more AA in 13 year career)
Baker - B&F 2005
Milne - got better under RL but still a gun under GT who GT wanted out

GOOD PLAYERS
Kosi
Black
Thompson
Peckett - better than a role player, running attacking defender
Powell - hard as a cats head
Guerra - delivered some mighty H&S, went on the become a vg half back
Penny
Maguire - at his peak under GT before injury

Solid role players
Blake
Knobel
Ackland

Young guns playing decent footy under GT but elevated under RL
Goddard - good footy under GT, elite under RL
Fisher - break out in 06/07, gun under RL
Joey - breakout in 06/07 - gun under RL
Gram - Good player in 08-11 period

GT had an incredible age demographic and mix of talent:
Veterans
Harvey - AA 03
Jones - AA 04
Peckett
Thompson

Guns in their prime
Gehrig
Hamill
Hayes
Milne
Hudghton

Young guns already at AA level
Reiwoldt
Ball
DalSanto

Up and coming young guns playing good footy
Joey
Goddard
X Clarke
Fisher
Maguire

Good solid players
Penny
Powell
Guerra
Kosi
Black

This myth of they weren't ready yet, the core were all young is BS.
The RL core of Goddard, Fisher, Joey were young in the GT era, but they were not the core of the GT era.

FWIW I think GT was fantastic and bringing the group together and giving confidence to the young guys and building belief, but I don't think he had the strategy, training standards or defensive game to win a flag. Just my opinion.

His lack of professionalism in tying personal loans and dealings with Butters who was a total loose cannon was costly.
The way GT was employed was farcical as was the way he left.

Given the list profile and talent available in 05/06 particularly we massively under achieved.

Great post. Perfectly articulated.

I don’t hate GT. He was good for that time period. My only beef was that he said he was only a temporary coach and he’d move on if someone more qualified came along. That person DID come along and he fought tooth and nail to keep his position. To his credit though, he conceded that no way he could get the team doing things it was doing in 09/10. Which is why the debate re GT/ Lyon is so confusing.

[skeptic]

I don’t know that there is much of a debate in that regard Moods. I think most acknowledge that RL has the runs in the board so to speak. The debate tends to focus more of whether or not GT’s performance was reasonable with question marks surrounding if his sacking was justified and what a post 06 side team would have done.

Few ppl make it about GT v RL directly but inevitably, when talking about one or the other, that’s where the conversation is often dragged. For example, if I ever talk about concerns I have with RL… there’s usually a… so you think GT is better comment or two

[meher baba]

I don’t hate GT. He was good for that time period. My only beef was that he said he was only a temporary coach and he’d move on if someone more qualified came along. That person DID come along and he fought tooth and nail to keep his position. To his credit though, he conceded that no way he could get the team doing things it was doing in 09/10. Which is why the debate re GT/ Lyon is so confusing.

I've tried to keep away from this thread because I don't really want to throw more fuel on the fire of Teflon's childish rantings.

But I believe that your suggestion that GT fought tooth and nail to avoid being replaced by Lyon is not correct. I have never heard from anyone, including club insiders, any suggestion that Lyon had already been earmarked for the job prior to GT's sacking. And I was told that, after GT had gone, the club seriously considered Longmire, and then went for the lower-profile Lyon on the strong recommendation of Robert Walls.

I think it was perfectly reasonable for GT to wish to hold on to his job. The team had made the finals three years in succession and was desperately unlucky in 2006 for a whole raft of reasons (eg, the AFL taking away 2 competition points it had awarded to us - something that had never happened before and never since - the injuries to Lenny and Kosi which can in no way be attributed to poor conditioning, a plethora of six day breaks, some incredibly one-eyed umpiring in a crucial game against Port, etc, etc.). As of the end of 2006, GT had a far better record than most other coaches who have been sacked in the history of the game. Stan Alves was probably even more unjustly removed in 2008, but at least the club could credibly argue that Alves had lost the players (which was never the case with GT) and that it had a high quality replacement in the wings in the form of Tim Watson (who everyone in the football world wrongly believed was 100% certain to be a gun coach).

I think GT would always have been prepared to step aside for an experienced AFL senior coach, but this scenario never occurred, and he ended up being sacked before any successor had been chosen.

His removal was a poor and highly risky decision, and the he fact that the club was able to that empty chair with a low profile assistant who turned out, after a couple of rather uncertain seasons, to be a highly-skilled coach doesn't retrospectively vindicate that poor decision, which was largely the result of the falling out between Butterss and GT: something for which both men were to blame and which we were lucky did not damage our club more than it did (eg, if the unknown quantity Lyon had turned out to be as poor a senior coach as Watson). Instead, the club stayed strong under Lyon only to fall to pieces after he left thanks to the likes of Nettlefold, Watters and Pelchen.

I think the argument about who is better out of Lyon and GT is boring. I have expressed my view before: they were both terrific coaches for the club in different ways. I think that Lyon is technically the superior coach of the two, but not by a huge margin. For a time it looked as if he didn't have the players, but he won them over completely after a couple of years. So he became a good man manager as well. And that, more than his much-vaunted system, is what has always impressed me about Lyon: the players really do see him as a guru, and will die for him. You don't get leaders like that every day.

And IMO he's come to us in 2023 a far better coach than he was in 2007.

[samoht]

Against RL coached teams, especially during finals, the opposing team may often be only a kick or 2 away from wresting back momentum/control (in low scoring games) after being completely dominated for the most part (Thomo alluded to this - but, gave RL the thumbs up, overall).

They always give themselves a chance, I reckon, by remaining thereabouts - half-expecting fatigue to set in at the latter stages.

The problem is, it's a very taxing/demanding game style - hard to sustain for 120 minutes?

Luckily (for RL and his game style), we are one of the fittest teams going around. He found the right group of players.

My thesis is, it's not a game style that would suit all teams (Freo last 4 years, for example - they might have been short on endurance athletes??).

The game plan looks brilliant at the moment, as we're the right fit?? I can't help thinking that.

But, so be it - if the hat/shoe/game plan fits, we should be happily wearing it - and something seems to be working.
More brilliant fit than brilliant game plan/genius coach - is the way I see it.

[Trev from the Bush]

I enjoy following keyboard warriors devoting their waking hours to fill the void left by the likes of Sunny Ernie on this site. It's not as enjoyable as watching the Saints play but there is certainly some reward for reading the thoughts of wet blankets masquerading as St Kilda supporters. Those who seek your opinion only to tear you down, such pitiful beings.

So you’re following me and admit you get rewarded for reading my thoughts?
Ok follow away Trevor ….it’s kinda creepy but I expect life gets lonely for you in the bush ….so I understand
Keep reading for more educational instalments coming your way
I appreciate the adoration btw

No names, no pack drill. But if the shoe fits....

[Teflon]

If it's ok for Ross Lyon to claim that we 'missed our chances' in the first half of 09, then it's ok for him to admit he did cost us a flag

Both are obviously assumptive, but the narrative at the time and the myth perpetuated on this forum over the years was that the players cost us.

It was really the coach who cost us with his inability to bring in young talent like Steven and Armo and his stubbornness with keeping Ball on the pine

37 to 15 Inside 50s our way in the first half of the 09 GF. Despite that domination we only led by 6 points at half time.

That's what cost us a Premiership.

You're allowed to believe that. I think it's a valid point if games were decided by who has more inside 50's at half time

For the record we had a couple of bad misses in the first half, but there were a few rushed behinds that made it look worse than it was.

The narrative puts all the blame on the players. Lyon also admitted he told the players to 'bomb it in'. Not very smart with Scarlett and Boris patrolling and not very smart to be expecting marks on a wet day

Belief is one thing, facts are reality.

37-15 Inside 50s in a half is complete domination, in a GF against a team of the caliber of that Geelong side, its also extraordinary. It should have translated into a minimum 5 goal lead at half time. If it had, we would have won. Ball's rotations had nothing to do with it.

Thank you !
Great post
Sad it has to be explained but sometimes…

[Teflon]

I enjoy following keyboard warriors devoting their waking hours to fill the void left by the likes of Sunny Ernie on this site. It's not as enjoyable as watching the Saints play but there is certainly some reward for reading the thoughts of wet blankets masquerading as St Kilda supporters. Those who seek your opinion only to tear you down, such pitiful beings.

So you’re following me and admit you get rewarded for reading my thoughts?
Ok follow away Trevor ….it’s kinda creepy but I expect life gets lonely for you in the bush ….so I understand
Keep reading for more educational instalments coming your way
I appreciate the adoration btw

No names, no pack drill. But if the shoe fits....

Ok Trev
Big day on the tractor??

[Teflon]

04-05
Was GTs fault

09-10
Was the players fault???

What fkn logic is that???

04-05
Role players
Powell, Peckett, Thompson, Voss, Guerra, Knobel/Ackland

Dal, Clarke, Ball, Riewoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Joey, Fisher, Raph, Gwilt, Gram
None of whom were in their prime yet - good players yes
All 60 games or less

This is effectively perpetuating the myth that GT got a team of 19/20 YO into prelims.

In 04/05/06 only Dal, Ball, Rooey & Kosi were core players, the others did not become core and guns until the Lyon era.

You have conveniently left out the GT core group of senior players in the 03-06 era and forgotten that some of the younger players in this period were AA:

GUNS in the 03-06 period & AA in GT era
Gehrig - AA 2004 and 3 X Coleman medalist
Harvey - AA 2003 and still a gun in 04/05/06
Hayes - AA 2003, 2005 & B&F winner
Jones - AA 2004
Hamill - at his peak in the GT era
Hudgton - at his peak in the GT era
Ball - AA 2005 & B&F at his peak in the GT era
Reiwoldt - AA 2004, 2005 & B&F - elevated under RL but still dual AA under GT
Dal - AA 2005 (2 more AA in 13 year career)
Baker - B&F 2005
Milne - got better under RL but still a gun under GT who GT wanted out

GOOD PLAYERS
Kosi
Black
Thompson
Peckett - better than a role player, running attacking defender
Powell - hard as a cats head
Guerra - delivered some mighty H&S, went on the become a vg half back
Penny
Maguire - at his peak under GT before injury

Solid role players
Blake
Knobel
Ackland

Young guns playing decent footy under GT but elevated under RL
Goddard - good footy under GT, elite under RL
Fisher - break out in 06/07, gun under RL
Joey - breakout in 06/07 - gun under RL
Gram - Good player in 08-11 period

GT had an incredible age demographic and mix of talent:
Veterans
Harvey - AA 03
Jones - AA 04
Peckett
Thompson

Guns in their prime
Gehrig
Hamill
Hayes
Milne
Hudghton

Young guns already at AA level
Reiwoldt
Ball
DalSanto

Up and coming young guns playing good footy
Joey
Goddard
X Clarke
Fisher
Maguire

Good solid players
Penny
Powell
Guerra
Kosi
Black

This myth of they weren't ready yet, the core were all young is BS.
The RL core of Goddard, Fisher, Joey were young in the GT era, but they were not the core of the GT era.

FWIW I think GT was fantastic and bringing the group together and giving confidence to the young guys and building belief, but I don't think he had the strategy, training standards or defensive game to win a flag. Just my opinion.

His lack of professionalism in tying personal loans and dealings with Butters who was a total loose cannon was costly.
The way GT was employed was farcical as was the way he left.

Given the list profile and talent available in 05/06 particularly we massively under achieved.

Great post. Perfectly articulated.

I don’t hate GT. He was good for that time period. My only beef was that he said he was only a temporary coach and he’d move on if someone more qualified came along. That person DID come along and he fought tooth and nail to keep his position. To his credit though, he conceded that no way he could get the team doing things it was doing in 09/10. Which is why the debate re GT/ Lyon is so confusing.

Bang on Moods/DB
Look, I don’t hate GT either …it’s more dislike
Had he stayed as a genuine caretaker after Blight fiasco (he had hand in but anyhow) then that’s fine
It’s when he went Putin on us I k ew we had a problem
I asked him DIRECTLY on an old Saints chat “if someone better comes along would you step aside..”
You know what he said??? Have a guess …
“I don’t think there is anyone more credentialed out there than me right now..”
I walked away (the guy had only coached Warrnambool FFS) and I thought ……we have a problem here …
That list with a genuine AFL coach off a genuine process should’ve won flags
He blew it
Anyway the great man is back
All’s right with the world
Even if that pisses off those that can’t wait to see him fail so they can put the boots in
Saynta/Stinger will be first - biggest banwagoner gettin around
Bookmark it

[B.M]

How did you feel when we won 10 straight?

Because you blew your bolt when we won 4 straight this year!!

[saynta]

04-05
Was GTs fault

09-10
Was the players fault???

What fkn logic is that???

04-05
Role players
Powell, Peckett, Thompson, Voss, Guerra, Knobel/Ackland

Dal, Clarke, Ball, Riewoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Joey, Fisher, Raph, Gwilt, Gram
None of whom were in their prime yet - good players yes
All 60 games or less

This is effectively perpetuating the myth that GT got a team of 19/20 YO into prelims.

In 04/05/06 only Dal, Ball, Rooey & Kosi were core players, the others did not become core and guns until the Lyon era.

You have conveniently left out the GT core group of senior players in the 03-06 era and forgotten that some of the younger players in this period were AA:

GUNS in the 03-06 period & AA in GT era
Gehrig - AA 2004 and 3 X Coleman medalist
Harvey - AA 2003 and still a gun in 04/05/06
Hayes - AA 2003, 2005 & B&F winner
Jones - AA 2004
Hamill - at his peak in the GT era
Hudgton - at his peak in the GT era
Ball - AA 2005 & B&F at his peak in the GT era
Reiwoldt - AA 2004, 2005 & B&F - elevated under RL but still dual AA under GT
Dal - AA 2005 (2 more AA in 13 year career)
Baker - B&F 2005
Milne - got better under RL but still a gun under GT who GT wanted out

GOOD PLAYERS
Kosi
Black
Thompson
Peckett - better than a role player, running attacking defender
Powell - hard as a cats head
Guerra - delivered some mighty H&S, went on the become a vg half back
Penny
Maguire - at his peak under GT before injury

Solid role players
Blake
Knobel
Ackland

Young guns playing decent footy under GT but elevated under RL
Goddard - good footy under GT, elite under RL
Fisher - break out in 06/07, gun under RL
Joey - breakout in 06/07 - gun under RL
Gram - Good player in 08-11 period

GT had an incredible age demographic and mix of talent:
Veterans
Harvey - AA 03
Jones - AA 04
Peckett
Thompson

Guns in their prime
Gehrig
Hamill
Hayes
Milne
Hudghton

Young guns already at AA level
Reiwoldt
Ball
DalSanto

Up and coming young guns playing good footy
Joey
Goddard
X Clarke
Fisher
Maguire

Good solid players
Penny
Powell
Guerra
Kosi
Black

This myth of they weren't ready yet, the core were all young is BS.
The RL core of Goddard, Fisher, Joey were young in the GT era, but they were not the core of the GT era.

FWIW I think GT was fantastic and bringing the group together and giving confidence to the young guys and building belief, but I don't think he had the strategy, training standards or defensive game to win a flag. Just my opinion.

His lack of professionalism in tying personal loans and dealings with Butters who was a total loose cannon was costly.
The way GT was employed was farcical as was the way he left.

Given the list profile and talent available in 05/06 particularly we massively under achieved.

Great post. Perfectly articulated.

I don’t hate GT. He was good for that time period. My only beef was that he said he was only a temporary coach and he’d move on if someone more qualified came along. That person DID come along and he fought tooth and nail to keep his position. To his credit though, he conceded that no way he could get the team doing things it was doing in 09/10. Which is why the debate re GT/ Lyon is so confusing.

Bang on Moods/DB
Look, I don’t hate GT either …it’s more dislike
Had he stayed as a genuine caretaker after Blight fiasco (he had hand in but anyhow) then that’s fine
It’s when he went Putin on us I k ew we had a problem
I asked him DIRECTLY on an old Saints chat “if someone better comes along would you step aside..”
You know what he said??? Have a guess …
“I don’t think there is anyone more credentialed out there than me right now..”
I walked away (the guy had only coached Warrnambool FFS) and I thought ……we have a problem here …
That list with a genuine AFL coach off a genuine process should’ve won flags
He blew it
Anyway the great man is back
All’s right with the world
Even if that pisses off those that can’t wait to see him fail so they can put the boots in
Saynta/Stinger will be first - biggest banwagoner gettin around
Bookmark it

What a load of garbage.

[saynta]

How did you feel when we won 10 straight?

Because you blew your bolt when we won 4 straight this year!!

[Scollop]

When someone thinks of a beautiful building or structure, they don't marvel at the painter's or the plasterers' finishing touches. They value the importance of the engineers and architects

I know Hoges helped keep the rust off those bolts, but you don't credit Paul Hogan for the finished product that is the famous coathanger in Sydney

GT is to the side that Lyon inherited in 2007 as Tait, Freeman and Bradfield were for the design and build of the Sydney Harbour Bridge

GT helped mould the men and leaders that Lyon inherited and the dynamic of 'team' that GT created during his period as coach should not be forgotten. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence understands the engineer and architect deserves credit

[samoht]

Lyon, metaphorically speaking, only builds Sydney Harbour Style Coat-hangers - but luckily he's found the right engineers and architects in St Kilda who can build according to his very unadventurous (= boring and unimaginative) plans.

[asiu]

How did you feel when we won 10 straight?

Because you blew your bolt when we won 4 straight this year!!

u do

well , bugger me

the marmot has a sense of humour hidden in there

ahhhhh

gaz laughs
all is well in the world.

very good

[Scollop]

Just as an example of the calibre of leaders at Freo during Ross Lyons time there, he had All Australian talent in every line and one of the best was his midfielder David Mundy.

When Ross walked into Freo he inherited other leaders apart from Mundy in McPharlin, Sandilands, Johnson, McPhee, and Pavlich

I was thinking the other day what Freo is lacking this year compared to last and why they look different. Was Longmire a better coach last year? Of course he wasn't. He just had better leadership and he had David Mundy at his disposal

[Teflon]

How did you feel when we won 10 straight?

Because you blew your bolt when we won 4 straight this year!!

Oh I ran out and brought the dvd
Now on sale at all good Vinnie stores!!

[Teflon]

When someone thinks of a beautiful building or structure, they don't marvel at the painter's or the plasterers' finishing touches. They value the importance of the engineers and architects

I know Hoges helped keep the rust off those bolts, but you don't credit Paul Hogan for the finished product that is the famous coathanger in Sydney

GT is to the side that Lyon inherited in 2007 as Tait, Freeman and Bradfield were for the design and build of the Sydney Harbour Bridge

GT helped mould the men and leaders that Lyon inherited and the dynamic of 'team' that GT created during his period as coach should not be forgotten. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence understands the engineer and architect deserves credit

LMAO
And now those moulded only refer to Ross when describing the BEST coach they’ve ever had
You’re reaching but it’s entertaining

[Teflon]

Just as an example of the calibre of leaders at Freo during Ross Lyons time there, he had All Australian talent in every line and one of the best was his midfielder David Mundy.

When Ross walked into Freo he inherited other leaders apart from Mundy in McPharlin, Sandilands, Johnson, McPhee, and Pavlich

I was thinking the other day what Freo is lacking this year compared to last and why they look different. Was Longmire a better coach last year? Of course he wasn't. He just had better leadership and he had David Mundy at his disposal

Oh so it’s all Mundy …it’s why they’ve fallen off a cliff
Ok
Brayshaw Sering etc who Lyon brought through offer little
Jackson …lol
Suggest you check Freo board on BF they want the great man back

[Scollop]

Just as an example of the calibre of leaders at Freo during Ross Lyons time there, he had All Australian talent in every line and one of the best was his midfielder David Mundy.

When Ross walked into Freo he inherited other leaders apart from Mundy in McPharlin, Sandilands, Johnson, McPhee, and Pavlich

I was thinking the other day what Freo is lacking this year compared to last and why they look different. Was Longmuir (edit..bloody auto correct) a better coach last year? Of course he wasn't. He just had better leadership and he had David Mundy at his disposal

Oh so it’s all Mundy …it’s why they’ve fallen off a cliff
Ok
Brayshaw Sering etc who Lyon brought through offer little
Jackson …lol
Suggest you check Freo board on BF they want the great man back

Who said Freo have fallen off a cliff? The 2023 year has just begun

The may well want him back because the Saints have won 5 matches, but….

Give it another 6-7 weeks and keep following the Freo board on BF and come back to us then with your report

I’ll be really keen to hear what they have to say

[saynta]

Who actually gives a fat rat's toss bag what the Shockers board or their supporters want or say. Don't I.

[meher baba]

well , bugger me

the marmot has a sense of humour hidden in there

ahhhhh

gaz laughs
all is well in the world.

very good

True Gaz. But BM's sense of humour falls short of Teflon's:

Look, I don’t hate GT either …it’s more dislike

[asiu]

lol

i'd humbly suggest ... being a bit encompassing 'n even grateful

Teffers runs a good solo yolo show
butt !!
... it'll be bloody bedlam if his old partner in crime turns up
to bedazzle us with rucks stats to advantage ,
reams of anti gt copy n paste from the old days , an occasional
the squares are rooted and regales us with percy wrangling 'n jilly jangling stories from his many afternoon japanese tea party experiences

it could be way worse
angry vegans are scary things


should be first on the menu come the zombie apocalypse

[meher baba]

it could be way worse
angry vegans are scary things
should be first on the menu come the zombie apocalypse

I've never met an angry vegan, but I've met some chefs who get pretty angry when you mention vegans.

Gluten and lactose intolerant people, and Hindus, Jews and Muslims are generally consistent and predictable in their dietary requirements. But vegans are not. "Veganism" is not a medical condition or a religious practice, it's just something people decide to do because they think it makes them healthier or more virtuous: some keep it up for a lifetime, but some are quite capricious in the way they practice it. And that's why restaurants absolutely hate it when a party of vegans books a table because they never know if, when they show up, they are all really going to want vegan dishes or whether they are going to succumb to temptation, decide to stop being vegans for an afternoon, and order cheeseburgers and meatlovers' pizzas.

So, yes, let's hope that the zombies unleashed on us by our forthcoming AI overlords have a predilection for the taste of vegans (although the serious ones I've known are all skin and bone).

[meher baba]

Duplicate

[meher baba]

PS: And yes, while barks4eva could be fun at times, we probably don't need him back here. "Campbell creams clearances" doesn't quite have the sam ring as "Rix rocks rucks", does it?