Membrey named

[amusingname]

You can’t change a winning team???

What if King was available

Steele was available

That is nonsense

Even in a big win - there are non contributors

Wins wallpaper over cracks - our conversations of i50s to scores is 17th in the league - better forwards come in - he’s gone imo

Do you honestly believe winning has anything to do with Cordy being in the team?

Again, who is saying he should stay in permanently? Of course when the top-liners are available and fit they will be playing and Cordy doesnt. You have created an argument that just doesnt exist.

Do you think that Membrey should be playing this week?

[B.M]

If fit - yes

If not - no

[Moods]

You can’t change a winning team???

What if King was available

Steele was available

That is nonsense

Even in a big win - there are non contributors

Wins wallpaper over cracks - our conversations of i50s to scores is 17th in the league - better forwards come in - he’s gone imo

Do you honestly believe winning has anything to do with Cordy being in the team?

I'm not saying that if our best players are available that we don't play them. I'm saying we can afford to be more circumspect with them and make sure they're 100% right to go. In days gone by when we were struggling we might say a 70% fit Membrey is better than a 100% fit Cordy. All I'm saying is that we need our best players cherry ripe and ready to play, including match fit, WHILE we're travelling like we are. Circumstances change,ie we lose more players to injury or some of the guys performing at the moment lose form, then absolutely some of the best players coming back will walk straight in. In every teams there are exceptions. For instance, yes, if King is ready to play he is so important structurally that I believe that he'd come straight in. Steele , if ready to go, is a no brainer. Membrey has missed 2 months of footy and hasn't played a competitive game since last August. His position is being played well at the moment with Owens and Pou. A week or two in the reserves won't kill him.

Re your question about Cordy. I believe that he has contributed to our wins by allowing others to play their roles and not having to drag anyone into the ruck. Is that good enough long term? Probably not. For now, I say it is. I still worry that we don't have a viable 2nd ruck option.

Do you change a winning team? Of course you do. But some of these kids need to be rewarded for their efforts, otherwise they will lose confidence and faith in what we are doing. Why are our I50's conversions so poor? To the naked eye they don't appear to be. Maybe we are pushing up the likes of Higgins and Butler so high to defend that sometimes when we get a fast break turnover we're a bit out of position? All I know is that we're getting far MORE I50's than what we used to get, which means we're attacking more rather than side kicking and back kicking and then kicking to packs.

[Scollop]

Was surprised when B.M said we are poor at i50 conversion.

Discovered a great website for Team stats.

It's got everything. No need to listen to Joey and Kingy on Wednesday's on 360 and no need to watch Garry and Bucks On The Coach

You need to scroll across at the bottom of the table and it reveals the stats re scoring and scoring efficiency

It even has stats on Free kicks (according to the averages it looks like we'll be getting screwed against Collingwood this week )

https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats_team.html

[Vortex]

Beggars can't be choosers, Cordy is getting a game because there is no one left at Sandy who can play strong in the forward line and also help out in the ruck at centre bounces.

Cordy probably isn't going to be playing in our next premiership and neither is Campbell and Sharman who most likely will be cut at Seasons end.

Cordy is clearly being selected for structure because there is literally none else available. Worst case scenario you'd think Campbell might get a game if Cordy gets injured.

So I'm guessing Cordy won't have any competition for his spot until Hayes is available for selection.

We only have 4 players who can play the genuine ruck role, ie attend centre bounces, RoMa, Cordy, Hayes and Heath.

Heath is probably not going to debut until next year most likely.

Haye's season is pretty much cooked.

Cordy is the only player who can help out at centre bounces.

Unless you see some other random names start training for centre bounce set plays it's highly unlikely Ross will throw a random in the ruck as he strongly believes you play way you train.

So anyone seen anyone train the centre bounce set play ruck role other than the names I mention?

Beggars can't be choosers!

[skeptic]

The debate is more about the actual efficacy of Cordy in the structure.

You are correct in that the role he’s playing is one of relief ruck and tall forward and that there’s no one else that fits the bill other than Campbell that could specifically do that.

However…
Cordy’s hit out returns so far
1
7
4
8 with Owens getting 5 that same match

Marks -in no particular order
0
6
0
1

And he’s kicked a total of 4 goals, 2 of them v the WB

The value that you’re getting from him to me looks fairly negligible to this point it time. He was almost entirely unsighted vs Freo bar the first and last 10min runs of the game…
Had a good game vs the Dogs when the team dominated

Was shelved vs Essendon

And did a little bit vs the GC

After round 2… I think we were all hoping that whilst no one was expecting match winning performances, we’d see more in the way of a direct or offensive contribution (possessions and directly being involved in play) as opposed purely defensive one (chasing, competing).

It doesn’t look to me like that’s happening and if that’s the case… personally I’d rather trade off for something else. Campbell has arguably earned a go in that type of role otherwise yeah, I still would prefer Coops getting a go as mid forward pushing up the ground. He obviously can’t do what Cordy is doing but I don’t know that we’d be missing on that match by having Owens or Caminati jumping in the ruck.

Just to be clear… not saying that will happen. Merely a personal preference.

I’ve always said… the biggest flaw of RTB V1.0 is overvaluing the contributions of his role players. To this point in time… Cordy has escaped a degree of scrutiny because we’re winning but I think if results had gone the other way vs Freo and Ess… critiques of his contribution would be harsher.

[B.M]

Excellent post

[Vortex]

The debate is more about the actual efficacy of Cordy in the structure.

You are correct in that the role he’s playing is one of relief ruck and tall forward and that there’s no one else that fits the bill other than Campbell that could specifically do that.

However…
Cordy’s hit out returns so far
1
7
4
8 with Owens getting 5 that same match

Marks -in no particular order
0
6
0
1

And he’s kicked a total of 4 goals, 2 of them v the WB

The value that you’re getting from him to me looks fairly negligible to this point it time. He was almost entirely unsighted vs Freo bar the first and last 10min runs of the game…
Had a good game vs the Dogs when the team dominated

Was shelved vs Essendon

And did a little bit vs the GC

After round 2… I think we were all hoping that whilst no one was expecting match winning performances, we’d see more in the way of a direct or offensive contribution (possessions and directly being involved in play) as opposed purely defensive one (chasing, competing).

It doesn’t look to me like that’s happening and if that’s the case… personally I’d rather trade off for something else. Campbell has arguably earned a go in that type of role otherwise yeah, I still would prefer Coops getting a go as mid forward pushing up the ground. He obviously can’t do what Cordy is doing but I don’t know that we’d be missing on that match by having Owens or Caminati jumping in the ruck.

Just to be clear… not saying that will happen. Merely a personal preference.

I’ve always said… the biggest flaw of RTB V1.0 is overvaluing the contributions of his role players. To this point in time… Cordy has escaped a degree of scrutiny because we’re winning but I think if results had gone the other way vs Freo and Ess… critiques of his contribution would be harsher.

I could be wrong but I think the distinction is somebody that not only has the desired physical attributes and is skilled at competing at 'center bounce' hitouts, but also a player who has also trained solidly at center bounce setplays. The latter is what I think is the bottom line for Lyon, he is dogmatic in his coaching philosophy about "you play the way you train".

It's why I have asked the training watchers if they have seen anyone other than RoMa, Cordy and Heath and Campbell train the center bounce set plays.

I don't think Owens has attended a centre bounce ruck contest and I would be shocked if Lyon risked him there.

Essentially if they don't train it, you wont see it in a game.

I'm guessing there is absolutely no chance Sharman will ever attend a ruck contest of any type at AFL level while wearing the red white and black, if you want to know why I think that watch the replays for his first 2 games last year before he was dropped, he was attended some ruck contests and was absolutely rag dolled and I am still embarrassed for having had to watch him be subjected to that situation on prime time TV. So that is one of the reasons I say Sharman is way off the pace, he has incredibly limited tricks outside of a mark and kick for goal.

I agree that Cordy most likely wont be around when we might next be a premiership threat, but right now the only way I can describe why he's getting is a game is because beggars cant be choosers and the next best options at Sandy are struggling at Sandy and aren't part of the future.

I totally agree, Cordy will be subject to absolute vitriol in our first loss, in fact I'm getting in early and blaming any loss he plays in solely on him.

[Vortex]

Excellent post

excellently flawed

[B.M]

I won’t blame a loss on him

Or give him credit for wins

He’s pretty much a non-contributor or non factor

As a great ruck relief he’s averaging 5 hit outs per game

As a forward 1 goal and 7 possessions

And that’s been in our wins

[shanegrambeau]

Judging by what we know of his reputation in recent years (on the field) , you can only assume Cordy is picked as a telephone pole to hold up the wire in the forward line

He was considered an honest battler by Dogs fans, and primarily as a third tall defender, who could swing toward

Superficially, seems a bit like a less talented Carlisle story.

But it begs the question.
What’s going on with Sharman?
How could it be that Sharman doesn’t have more, even for oppo coaches to think about?
Or even more absurdly, could it be that Membery is going to be held out because of Cordy? Crazy to the think, silly to say..

But as one Cats can wrote on BF in late ‘22,

“I mean....St Kilda took Mason Wood who was probably considered just as big a spud as Cordy. And they've found him a role, seen him play a few good games.

I guess lightning could strike twice? :shrug:”

[B.M]

Mason Wood has always been talented and is an extreme athlete

Just need to get confidence in his body

Was always injured at North

[magnifisaint]

Mason Wood has always been talented and is an extreme athlete

Just need to get confidence in his body

Was always injured at North

Someone just needs to tell him that he's beautiful. I think Ross is giving him lots of cuddles.

[skeptic]

The debate is more about the actual efficacy of Cordy in the structure.

You are correct in that the role he’s playing is one of relief ruck and tall forward and that there’s no one else that fits the bill other than Campbell that could specifically do that.

However…
Cordy’s hit out returns so far
1
7
4
8 with Owens getting 5 that same match

Marks -in no particular order
0
6
0
1

And he’s kicked a total of 4 goals, 2 of them v the WB

The value that you’re getting from him to me looks fairly negligible to this point it time. He was almost entirely unsighted vs Freo bar the first and last 10min runs of the game…
Had a good game vs the Dogs when the team dominated

Was shelved vs Essendon

And did a little bit vs the GC

After round 2… I think we were all hoping that whilst no one was expecting match winning performances, we’d see more in the way of a direct or offensive contribution (possessions and directly being involved in play) as opposed purely defensive one (chasing, competing).

It doesn’t look to me like that’s happening and if that’s the case… personally I’d rather trade off for something else. Campbell has arguably earned a go in that type of role otherwise yeah, I still would prefer Coops getting a go as mid forward pushing up the ground. He obviously can’t do what Cordy is doing but I don’t know that we’d be missing on that match by having Owens or Caminati jumping in the ruck.

Just to be clear… not saying that will happen. Merely a personal preference.

I’ve always said… the biggest flaw of RTB V1.0 is overvaluing the contributions of his role players. To this point in time… Cordy has escaped a degree of scrutiny because we’re winning but I think if results had gone the other way vs Freo and Ess… critiques of his contribution would be harsher.

I could be wrong but I think the distinction is somebody that not only has the desired physical attributes and is skilled at competing at 'center bounce' hitouts, but also a player who has also trained solidly at center bounce setplays. The latter is what I think is the bottom line for Lyon, he is dogmatic in his coaching philosophy about "you play the way you train".

It's why I have asked the training watchers if they have seen anyone other than RoMa, Cordy and Heath and Campbell train the center bounce set plays.

I don't think Owens has attended a centre bounce ruck contest and I would be shocked if Lyon risked him there.

Essentially if they don't train it, you wont see it in a game.

I'm guessing there is absolutely no chance Sharman will ever attend a ruck contest of any type at AFL level while wearing the red white and black, if you want to know why I think that watch the replays for his first 2 games last year before he was dropped, he was attended some ruck contests and was absolutely rag dolled and I am still embarrassed for having had to watch him be subjected to that situation on prime time TV. So that is one of the reasons I say Sharman is way off the pace, he has incredibly limited tricks outside of a mark and kick for goal.

I agree that Cordy most likely wont be around when we might next be a premiership threat, but right now the only way I can describe why he's getting is a game is because beggars cant be choosers and the next best options at Sandy are struggling at Sandy and aren't part of the future.

I totally agree, Cordy will be subject to absolute vitriol in our first loss, in fact I'm getting in early and blaming any loss he plays in solely on him.

There was no suggestion that Sharman would/should go into the ruck. Only that he will likely provide as much and pbly more value as a forward.

My hope for Sharman is that he at least gets an opportunity as a forward in a team that is playing well opposed to be asked to play as a lone forward ruck relief in a team that gets smashed by 12 goals. That didn’t do him any favours.

On being scapegoated… the suggestion is merely that regardless of whether a player beats or is beaten by their opponent, their baseline output should hold up to scrutiny.

A mistake this club has made for a long time is viewing a mediocre performance is a positive lens when winning and being overly harsh of the same type of output in a loss.

If we trounced tomorrow and Cordy’s return is 6 touches, no marks, 5 hit outs… the people praising his performance should continue their defence of him as that’s more or less what his form has been.

Like I’ve said before, I don’t believe that output is close to good enough with the biggest criticism being that unlike Caminati or Pou, he’s not getting to many contests.

It’s harder to understand your view on Cordy because your argument seems to centre round other players, notably Coops and Campbell, being incapable of doing this nebulously measured role

[Vortex]

your argument seems to centre round other players, notably Coops and Campbell, being incapable

That's exactly my argument, through the lens of building a team capable of standing in the closing minutes of a GF, neither look likely, and by a fair margin.

Cordy has actually been there in the closing minutes of a GF so whilst that doesn't mean he is capable of doing it with us, for the time being he is the best we've got for the role he's playing.

That's my other argument, the cupboard is bare and there are literally no AFL grade players left to select from at Sandy so Cordy is the obvious choice on that basis.

[B.M]

Sharman being tried on the wing - strangely

Are they trying to Mason Wood him????

Because he’s not good enough fwd or back??

[skeptic]

Sharman being tried on the wing - strangely

Are they trying to Mason Wood him????

Because he’s not good enough fwd or back??

He’s had the strangest journey of any young footballer I can remember.

Came in mid season…
With a suburban body he played and exceeded any reasonable expectations.

Doesn’t start the following season… doesn’t get to play while the team is travelling well.
Plays against the dominant team of the year as a relief ruck and lone key forward in a team that is crushed in the middle. Sharman, whilst acknowledged as competing hard is crucified for his failure in the ruck/lone forward role.

Is dropped and comes back as a defender. Gradually improves in the position after a few games.

Fast forward 2023… is now playing on the wing.

My feeling about his move is that I agree with the criticism that he struggled a lot post the marking contest. Hence the move seems to be to try and improve his running game and ability to get to contests. If he has success… pbly going to be more in the style of a Membrey type rather than a key marking forward.

Like I said before. My hope for him is that he at least has opportunities to play as a forward I’m a team that is doing well as opposed to being blown out of the park.

[Ghost Like]

I won’t blame a loss on him

Or give him credit for wins

He’s pretty much a non-contributor or non factor

As a great ruck relief he’s averaging 5 hit outs per game

As a forward 1 goal and 7 possessions

And that’s been in our wins

That is purely an individual game, not vote worthy in any sense but because he is subbing for a position allows others to do what they do best for the team. It's not that hard, it is a team and a structural game once the coach decrees how it should evolve.

[StPeter]

The debate is more about the actual efficacy of Cordy in the structure.

You are correct in that the role he’s playing is one of relief ruck and tall forward and that there’s no one else that fits the bill other than Campbell that could specifically do that.

However…
Cordy’s hit out returns so far
1
7
4
8 with Owens getting 5 that same match

Marks -in no particular order
0
6
0
1

And he’s kicked a total of 4 goals, 2 of them v the WB

The value that you’re getting from him to me looks fairly negligible to this point it time. He was almost entirely unsighted vs Freo bar the first and last 10min runs of the game…
Had a good game vs the Dogs when the team dominated

Was shelved vs Essendon

And did a little bit vs the GC

After round 2… I think we were all hoping that whilst no one was expecting match winning performances, we’d see more in the way of a direct or offensive contribution (possessions and directly being involved in play) as opposed purely defensive one (chasing, competing).

It doesn’t look to me like that’s happening and if that’s the case… personally I’d rather trade off for something else. Campbell has arguably earned a go in that type of role otherwise yeah, I still would prefer Coops getting a go as mid forward pushing up the ground. He obviously can’t do what Cordy is doing but I don’t know that we’d be missing on that match by having Owens or Caminati jumping in the ruck.

Just to be clear… not saying that will happen. Merely a personal preference.

I’ve always said… the biggest flaw of RTB V1.0 is overvaluing the contributions of his role players. To this point in time… Cordy has escaped a degree of scrutiny because we’re winning but I think if results had gone the other way vs Freo and Ess… critiques of his contribution would be harsher.

Agree re RTB overvaluing role players. I am not sure I can ever forgive his selection bungles of McWalter and Eddy.

Could well have cost us a couple of premierships.

[nostalgicsaint]

Worth looking at cordys TOG when looking at his stats.

He is there effectively to provide chop out to RoMa and also a target/physicality up fwd. Being effective in that role doesn't always show up in statistics.

FWIW I'd have dropped him but I assume the club has more insight we miss.

[CQ SAINT]

If you are the best ranked team at scoring off rebounds, then rushing forward entries, is more like burley, than an attempt to bait and reel in a fish.

Our running structure from defence is solid as a rock and the ball generally comes back to a see of red white and black, waiting to pounch and run it back in, passed the advancing back line of the opposition.

King and Membrey aren't anywhere near as efficient as what our playing to our strengths have been.

[skeptic]

Worth looking at cordys TOG when looking at his stats.

He is there effectively to provide chop out to RoMa and also a target/physicality up fwd. Being effective in that role doesn't always show up in statistics.

FWIW I'd have dropped him but I assume the club has more insight we miss.

Played stuff all vs Essendon otherwise his TOG has been high

[nostalgicsaint]

Worth looking at cordys TOG when looking at his stats.

He is there effectively to provide chop out to RoMa and also a target/physicality up fwd. Being effective in that role doesn't always show up in statistics.

FWIW I'd have dropped him but I assume the club has more insight we miss.

Played stuff all vs Essendon otherwise his TOG has been high

Against gc only the subs had less game time was passable
Stuff all against essendon was poor
Plenty of gametime against the dogs where he played well
79% against freo where he was okay

[Vortex]

Sharman being tried on the wing - strangely

Are they trying to Mason Wood him????

Because he’s not good enough fwd or back??

He’s had the strangest journey of any young footballer I can remember.

Came in mid season…
With a suburban body he played and exceeded any reasonable expectations.

Doesn’t start the following season… doesn’t get to play while the team is travelling well.
Plays against the dominant team of the year as a relief ruck and lone key forward in a team that is crushed in the middle. Sharman, whilst acknowledged as competing hard is crucified for his failure in the ruck/lone forward role.

Is dropped and comes back as a defender. Gradually improves in the position after a few games.

Fast forward 2023… is now playing on the wing.

My feeling about his move is that I agree with the criticism that he struggled a lot post the marking contest. Hence the move seems to be to try and improve his running game and ability to get to contests. If he has success… pbly going to be more in the style of a Membrey type rather than a key marking forward.

Like I said before. My hope for him is that he at least has opportunities to play as a forward I’m a team that is doing well as opposed to being blown out of the park.

Not sure if it has occurred to you however and essentially what your observations are confirming is he's a fair way off the pace and forcing him to learn his craft on an AFL arena would be detrimental to his and the teams development, even in a good side, I don't quite follow your logic on that point to be honest.

The fact he is now being played on a wing for Sandy further suggests the club is really struggling to find a career for him it AFL level.

It's not always other peoples fault, sometimes its on the player.

[skeptic]

Worth looking at cordys TOG when looking at his stats.

He is there effectively to provide chop out to RoMa and also a target/physicality up fwd. Being effective in that role doesn't always show up in statistics.

FWIW I'd have dropped him but I assume the club has more insight we miss.

Played stuff all vs Essendon otherwise his TOG has been high

Against gc only the subs had less game time was passable
Stuff all against essendon was poor
Plenty of gametime against the dogs where he played well
79% against freo where he was okay

To be honest… I knew it was high vs Freo and WB and low v Ess.

GC was a guess. Still played 88min