Why Saints Must Finish Bottom 4 2023

[Otiman]

A well run football club with the worst list could still finish 8-12.

The days of tanking for draft picks are over. The key is to build a winning culture.

What this means for us is the need to understand where we are at and what's required to move forward. Ross has already stated this as his goal.

If we determine our list is capable of finishing 6th, then finishing 6-9th for 2-3 years allows us to build, it's better than bottoming out. But under no illusions is the goal to finish 6th and sacrifice the future by drafting a team full of GOP's, it's to finish 6th AND improve the side year on year.

A winning culture
Training and development

More important than wins.

[asiu]

a season of honourable losses then
with the odd win
so as the boys can sing the song

does that keep u kulcha kings happy ?

hmmmm
pick 3 v pick 9

[samuraisaint]

And how did trading out McEvoy, Goddard, Dal Santo and Jamie Cripps work out for us?

And pushing out Joey and Roo probably a year early?

The first six weeks of the season will be tough anyway, but I don't want to go to games knowing the club have put the cue in the rack.

[saynta]

And how did trading out McEvoy, Goddard, Dal Santo and Jamie Cripps work out for us?

And pushing out Joey and Roo probably a year early?

The first six weeks of the season will be tough anyway, but I don't want to go to games knowing the club have put the cue in the rack.

Not too good at all

Big boy ...That was pelican s*** helping out his old club the dorks. The others was just his failed plans. The club was conned by a snake oil saleasman

Set us back years...unforgivable

[CQ SAINT]

Nonsense.

A bottom 4 finish would be a terrible thing for the club in so many ways.

This lose to win idea is akin to trickle down economics.

Yes, loitering between 6 and 16 for a decade has been great for Richo and Ratten's retirement fund.
Poor Brett, he never really stood a chance.
You can bet your balls Ross Lyon wants a top 4 pick next year and told the club directly after being approached that we will be resetting and not giving Degoey or anyone else $5m for 5 years, while other clubs circle, Membrey, Phillipou and Wanganeen-Milera. We might as well put Mackenzie, Billings, Coffield and Jones on ice for 2023 and go to the draft.
We will be in good company, Hawthorn, Richmond and West Coast will be there with us and Essendon will take a second half dive too.

[samoht]

You overlook the obvious draft picks such as Petracca, Bolton, etc ... over they years - it all adds up and you get what you deserve.

We're still hoping about becoming a destination club - it's laughable really - when we could have been one by choosing Petracca, Bolton, etc...

You make your own destiny.

Smart recruiting - that's what it's all about (plus some good genes would have helped us over the years - have a look at the 2 Daicoses plus Moore).

[shanegrambeau]

Nonsense.

A bottom 4 finish would be a terrible thing for the club in so many ways.

This lose to win idea is akin to trickle down economics.

Yes, loitering between 6 and 16 for a decade has been great for Richo and Ratten's retirement fund.
Poor Brett, he never really stood a chance.
You can bet your balls Ross Lyon wants a top 4 pick next year and told the club directly after being approached that we will be resetting and not giving Degoey or anyone else $5m for 5 years, while other clubs circle, Membrey, Phillipou and Wanganeen-Milera. We might as well put Mackenzie, Billings, Coffield and Jones on ice for 2023 and go to the draft.
We will be in good company, Hawthorn, Richmond and West Coast will be there with us and Essendon will take a second half dive too.

Mr CQ,

I don’t know whether you are being facetious in order to make a point, an ironic sleight-of-word(s)? , maybe? To be honest, I can’t figure out where you sit on this .. But taking it face value.

I would counter you in several points.

1) loitering is not a fair word..we struggled and hung in for dear life, we made desperate moves, on the field and in recruiting. Our fixture was absolutely crap. And there may have been indifference and burn out at times, coupled with the challenge of new clubs getting priorities and big clubs using their clout. Whatever the challenges, we didn’t loiter intentionally

2) Brett never stood a chance, yep, I’d agree, but that doesn’t figure in this discussion - at least I can’t see how

3) Ross wants a first rounder. Sure but they all do. It’s try Ross has prestige again now (incredibly) and would make us more attractive. Whilst we may get some nice players, if we are in the crapper, they’ll leave.

4) MacKenzie and Billings and even Coffield and Paton’s geese may have been cooked. No value in a trade. (Maybe the latter two, but barely second rounders)


I contend, it is better to aim for 4 or 5 be mid ladder and try to ride our luck, rather than go to the bottom and try to reach the sun.

In the context of footy tiday

Enjoy the games , stay in the hunt, be a factor, be relevant, be (moderately) successful and leave the perennial wooden spoon tag behind.

Enough is enough (Sunny Ernie)

[Yorkeys]

Sponsors, members, coterie, professional reputations, players competitive nature, broadcasters. The idea of manipulating a poor season in isolation from those interests as a strategy to improve is from la la land.

People know when you are doing your best even if you lose, they recognise effort , they like flair.

It's an 18 team comp. with many moving parts. Of course it's hard to win. But we have proven getting early draft picks is no panacea.

It's smarts and good fortune.

[Sainternist]

Good read
Lot of sense
Even brain dead know it’s not about 2023

Thanks for the post, but is there any chance you could reference the piece of writing you posted?

[meher baba]

I just don't think tanking is a good strategy given where the club is right now.

Both the Saints in the late 90s/early 2000s and other clubs since then have demonstrated that you are probably looking at 5 years of rebuilding after you bottom out before you can seriously contend for a premiership.. We did really well with our bottoming out (and arguably could have done a bit better still if we'd taken Judd over Ball: but then that roundabout was probably evened up a bit by our unexpected luck in snaffling BJ). But other clubs managed to get their hands on multiple early draft picks and still haven't flourished. So there's no guarantee.

Meanwhile, we will lose even more fans, more sponsors, and more of our limited crediblity. And Lyon still isn't the right coach for a rebuild IMO. I reckon we have a list capable of making the finals. Sure, we're starting a little behind the eight ball with all our injuries. But I think the club needs to aim to achieve as much as it possibly can in 2023: tanking would be fool's gold.

[Vortex]

you are probably looking at 5 years of rebuilding

How many years do you think the faithful will tolerate.

And by tolerate I'm guessing the natives will get restless if we don't make finals next year.

So assume one scenario is we completely tank this year due to our injury issues on top of a poor list, Ross then cuts deep at seasons end and the list is almost as raw next year as it can be and we don't make finals in 24.

The narrative in Lyon's 3rd season could possibly be Lyon must make finals to keep his job.

So not quite 5 years but the end result is similar meaning the love has run out for yet another coach at St Kilda.

[meher baba]

you are probably looking at 5 years of rebuilding

How many years do you think the faithful will tolerate.

And by tolerate I'm guessing the natives will get restless if we don't make finals next year.

So assume one scenario is we completely tank this year due to our injury issues on top of a poor list, Ross then cuts deep at seasons end and the list is almost as raw next year as it can be and we don't make finals in 24.

The narrative in Lyon's 3rd season could possibly be Lyon must make finals to keep his job.

So not quite 5 years but the end result is similar meaning the love has run out for yet another coach at St Kilda.

I don't think Lyon's ego would tolerate bottoming out for two years or more. He'd up and leave.

I think he's at the club to achieve something. He's probably not expecting to make the finals this year, but he does want to demonstrate that he can make the good players on our list play better and more effectively as a group. And I would imagine that Lenny and Harves have come back to the club with the same end in mind.

I'd be quite astonished if we start tanking early in the season. As it turns out, we're "playing the kids" because we don't have anyone else to play. But, when the more experienced players are fit again, I expect them to slot straight back in.

[The Fireman]

I don’t like bottom four
Been there too many times

So nah. I wanna see wins and improvements not tanking

[saynta]

you are probably looking at 5 years of rebuilding

How many years do you think the faithful will tolerate.

And by tolerate I'm guessing the natives will get restless if we don't make finals next year.

So assume one scenario is we completely tank this year due to our injury issues on top of a poor list, Ross then cuts deep at seasons end and the list is almost as raw next year as it can be and we don't make finals in 24.

The narrative in Lyon's 3rd season could possibly be Lyon must make finals to keep his job.

So not quite 5 years but the end result is similar meaning the love has run out for yet another coach at St Kilda.

Nope. I'm tipping that for the good of the Saints, RTB will see out his 5 year contract and then get extended for a further 3 to 5 years. Ross ain't going anywhere but the saints are.

[Vortex]

you are probably looking at 5 years of rebuilding

How many years do you think the faithful will tolerate.

And by tolerate I'm guessing the natives will get restless if we don't make finals next year.

So assume one scenario is we completely tank this year due to our injury issues on top of a poor list, Ross then cuts deep at seasons end and the list is almost as raw next year as it can be and we don't make finals in 24.

The narrative in Lyon's 3rd season could possibly be Lyon must make finals to keep his job.

So not quite 5 years but the end result is similar meaning the love has run out for yet another coach at St Kilda.

I don't think Lyon's ego would tolerate bottoming out for two years or more. He'd up and leave.

I think he's at the club to achieve something. He's probably not expecting to make the finals this year, but he does want to demonstrate that he can make the good players on our list play better and more effectively as a group. And I would imagine that Lenny and Harves have come back to the club with the same end in mind.

I'd be quite astonished if we start tanking early in the season. As it turns out, we're "playing the kids" because we don't have anyone else to play. But, when the more experienced players are fit again, I expect them to slot straight back in.

Absolutely his ego won't get in his way from trying to achieve his goals but having access to players that can help him achieve that goal will be the issue. But I don't think he will leave if he's not getting us into finals, I think it's the last roll of the dice for him, he will take the money for as long as the club keep paying him and if he gets sacked then I think that will be the end of his coaching career.

As it was at Freo, his last four years there were at the deeper end of the ladder with a winning percentage of only 33% so his ego wasn't enough to get the job done.

It's always the quality of the list and that is the biggest issue we have always had as a club, 'building quality lists'.

Speaking of the ubiquitous claims Ross can make the good players on our list play better, I recon Byrnes and Bytel are two players who will become the measurement of that ubiquitous claim.

[asiu]

playing youth instead of second rate injured players is not tanking it's development

[Teflon]

nuh , it's called playing the kids

we need 3 years to get towards 40 games into em
without flogging em to death

utilise the whole squad
on the journey

and we'll be ahead of the pack when we get there

imo
fwtw

Bang on!
Great post

[Teflon]

Nonsense.

A bottom 4 finish would be a terrible thing for the club in so many ways.

This lose to win idea is akin to trickle down economics.

Nonsense is pretending your contending when you ain’t and staying 9-12
If there’s a time to drink deep from the draft it’s now…this years crop is a bumper apparently….Hawks prepared to do it..
My bet is if we don’t they’ll pass us in 3 years
This year is all about finding out who can play/who can’t - Lyon’s already said it
Anything else is a bonus

The Lyon worshipper is getting the excuses ready for his idol!

Or just a realist
As opposed to the Ratten dreamer who got the arse for the same thinking…
Flag please
Not making up numbers

[The Fireman]

the one thing in our favour is that we now have a coach that will improve our list.
He will get the very best out of them..they are already saying how much they respect him

[The Fireman]

playing youth instead of second rate injured players is not tanking it's development

just want the best available on the grd...win at all costs.

[Teflon]

Good read
Lot of sense
Even brain dead know it’s not about 2023

Thanks for the post, but is there any chance you could reference the piece of writing you posted?

Apple News
The Roar

[Teflon]

playing youth instead of second rate injured players is not tanking it's development

Spot on mate
Hawks are in development mode - tanking? Don’t care what you call it ….a few good draft drinks and watch them rise past us while we still try and pretend our recent “top up” attempts will get us to top 4….utter rubbish
Lyon has already come out and said it - we need more KP talent …we lack it ….we lack outside run/quality..
The last time St Kilda challenged was off the back of the draft ….if this year is so good… why would you not?
Anyway we can dream we’ll be a “destination club” but unless you can show potential players you have talent with a genuine future chance to go deep in finals you can forget it
I reckon 2x top 10 picks this year or a 1st and early 2nd ….sets us up nicely ….

[SaintPav]

We probably won’t need to tank.

[Vortex]

playing youth instead of second rate injured players is not tanking it's development

Spot on mate
Hawks are in development mode - tanking? Don’t care what you call it ….a few good draft drinks and watch them rise past us while we still try and pretend our recent “top up” attempts will get us to top 4….utter rubbish
Lyon has already come out and said it - we need more KP talent …we lack it ….we lack outside run/quality..
The last time St Kilda challenged was off the back of the draft ….if this year is so good… why would you not?
Anyway we can dream we’ll be a “destination club” but unless you can show potential players you have talent with a genuine future chance to go deep in finals you can forget it
I reckon 2x top 10 picks this year or a 1st and early 2nd ….sets us up nicely ….

What's interesting about our latest strategy to build a list via the draft is, is with the exception of 2019 when we bought in the fab five, ironically we have been trying to build a list via the draft since 2012.

It's also interesting the hysteria around Phillipou and the unnerving belief he is going to be the second coming of Bontepelli, which I can't remember that type of hysteria about any other of our high picks such as Clark and Coff which were higher than the Pou, and Clark and Coff have been stuttering and our other high picks in Billings who has been anything but what you would expect from a number 3. It could well be hysteria attached to the hype of the messiah returning, time will tell.

I suppose what I'm saying is, how do we know this latest strategy we have been sold is going to result in a flag when really all it is, is a very similar strategy to the one we've been executing for the best part of the last decade, but just wrapped up and marketed in a different way.

[King Max]

Good read
Lot of sense
Even brain dead know it’s not about 2023

Thanks for the post, but is there any chance you could reference the piece of writing you posted?

Apple News
The Roar

https://www.theroar.com.au/2023/03/17/w ... r-in-2023/