Australia in India: Train Wreck?

[saynta]

Judging by the 2 reviews already its not just the umpires who have no idea what's going on out there

Glad to see you acknowledge that the maggots have NFI.

Never said they weren't making mistakes or having a shocker, just that the idea they're favouring one side or another accidently or deliberately is moronic.

And so is the thlnking that the Indian Maggot didn't favour his home side.

The evidence was clear to anyone watching with both eyes

That’s blatantly wrong.

And you haven’t watched any sporting contest with both eyes open in decades.

That post applies to you actually.

I am correct and the only thing blatantly wrong is your view of the maggots' performance. Par for the course for the maggots best buddy.

[st.byron]

This article by Geoff Lemon outlines just how tough it is in to win in India.

He also describes the relationship between the Indian board, team management and curators. Interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... ourth-test

"Australians at home show up to the ground and pick a team for whatever they are given. Indian team preparation includes deciding what kind of surface they want to play on. Making wickets is an inexact art, but those running the team place an order and those running the mower try to fill it. This is a different world, one where the Indian board has centrally employed curators going match to match wearing team training kit, and coach Rahul Dravid spends lunch on day one with them examining the strip of dirt in the middle, presumably conveying his displeasure at the fact that seven of his players had already been dismissed."

[st.byron]

Re the article above. Deliberately watering different parts of the pitch differently for the first test is the clearest example of the lengths the Indians will go to to make their home advantage insurmountable. And the curators are centrally employed and wear Indian team kit. Okay. But they're not cheating. Not at all. And don't dare suggest to them that they are. Max indignation will follow. I really despise them.

[Yorkeys]

Re the article above. Deliberately watering different parts of the pitch differently for the first test is the clearest example of the lengths the Indians will go to to make their home advantage insurmountable. And the curators are centrally employed and wear Indian team kit. Okay. But they're not cheating. Not at all. And don't dare suggest to them that they are. Max indignation will follow. I really despise them.

Call centre meets grounds preparation.
And anyway water costs.

People have to make a living you know, can't eat ethics*.

*Neolib holding line #425.

[CQ SAINT]

Anything described as a gentleman's game is destined for a rich history of cheating.

[shanegrambeau]

This is disgusting!
As a St Kilda supporter, I take offence.

People say that during the 1980s a certain football club used to turn on the sprinklers to flood their mud pot ground...

Appalling.

Sunny Ernie: Enough is enough!


But seriously, I wonder if the grounds themselves are competing with one another to host a test match.
If so, I imagine it is possible that the local city councils also have much to gain by hosting the game as does the local chamber of commerce.
If so, I would say the President of the said ground has connections and interests.
And being the 2020s probably has to write reports about profitability and yearly metrics/targets

If it were me, I'd simply find out what I needed to do to get the contract and keep that contract.

Get my drift?

[saynta]

My dear old grandpa used to tell me that cheats never prosper.

That was decades before the Indians had money and power.

[CQ SAINT]

My dear old grandpa used to tell me that cheats never prosper.

That was decades before the Indians had money and power.

Lol.

In 1700 India produced 25% of the world's GDP. In 1950, when the poms farked off, its contribution to the global GDP had declined to 4%.

There's been some dirty tactics and cheating going on for a little more than a few decades preceeding your dear old grandpa saynta.

[shanegrambeau]

My dear old grandpa used to tell me that cheats never prosper.

That was decades before the Indians had money and power.

Lol.

In 1700 India produced 25% of the world's GDP. In 1950, when the poms farked off, its contribution to the global GDP had declined to 4%.

There's been some dirty tactics and cheating going on for a little more than a few decades preceeding your dear old grandpa saynta.

That’s interesting.
The Brits were good at extracting raw materials at the expense of local value adding industries and it all contributed to India deindustrializing until the point of mutiny
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab ... B01BA84C01

Not something we think of based on high school history classes. We think of the colonizers helping - building railways, schools, hospitals , modern medicine etc. even though we accept that the locals were screwed by that system and stuck in paternal codependency with their rulers

[The_Dud]

If the Aussies didn’t sh*t the bed multiple times in the second Test we’d be 2-1 up.

So I don’t think the ‘cheating’ or the pitches are the number 1 culprits for the series results.

[st.byron]

If the Aussies didn’t sh*t the bed multiple times in the second Test we’d be 2-1 up.

So I don’t think the ‘cheating’ or the pitches are the number 1 culprits for the series results.

No not saying they are. Just noting how systemic the impulse to take advantage is in India. The lack of sportsmanship is centralised and in your face whilst being denied at the same time.
The curators wearing Indian team kit
But also not shocked.

[Devilhead]

India will want the 4th Test pitch at Ahmedabad to be a dead flat batter friendly wicket

India will be looking for a draw to win the series

Since 1999 there have been 10 Test matches played there with 5 Draws, 4 India wins and 1 to the Saffas

Doesn't look like we have played a Test there before

[CURLY]

I Love how India don't even try to hide that they cheat.

[saynta]

If the Aussies didn’t sh*t the bed multiple times in the second Test we’d be 2-1 up.

So I don’t think the ‘cheating’ or the pitches are the number 1 culprits for the series results.

Your joking, surely?

[The_Dud]

If the Aussies didn’t sh*t the bed multiple times in the second Test we’d be 2-1 up.

So I don’t think the ‘cheating’ or the pitches are the number 1 culprits for the series results.

No not saying they are. Just noting how systemic the impulse to take advantage is in India. The lack of sportsmanship is centralised and in your face whilst being denied at the same time.
The curators wearing Indian team kit
But also not shocked.

Do you honestly think CA have zero influence over the way pitches/grounds are prepared around Australia?

I also think for decades multiple teams/countries around the world (and even some locals) have been pointing the finger at the Australian cricket team over lack of sportsmanship for a number of reasons. As fans we scoff at these accusations and tell them to 'harden up'. IMO its all perspective.

'Anywhere, anytime' should be the matra all teams go in with (especially the St Kilda FC, I'm glad RTB is back as I think he's big on this) rather than preloading excuses for poor performances. The first Test is a great example of this IMO. The whole Aussie team (including selectors) got spooked by a couple of photos of the pitch days out from the game, and lost the Test before the first ball was even bowled, while in the end the pitch did nothing out of the ordinary.

'Mental warfare' I think Steve Waugh famously called it?

[The_Dud]

I Love how India don't even try to hide that they cheat.

Kind of like sticking bright yellow sandpaper down your pants?

[CURLY]

I Love how India don't even try to hide that they cheat.

Kind of like sticking bright yellow sandpaper down your pants?

Yep and they got punished as a result. India encourage cheating.

[saynta]

I Love how India don't even try to hide that they cheat.

Kind of like sticking bright yellow sandpaper down your pants?

Always gotta be one.

Bettcha you were a prefect at school .

[saynta]

From the heraldsun.com.au

The fallout from Indore has been significant and nobody is sure what sort of pitch will be prepared for the fourth Test, but an old fashioned Indian “road” would at least ensure an Indian win.

The Madhya Pradesh Cricket Association’s ground in Indore is under threat of suspension from hosting international cricket after it received a three-point demerit sanction from the ICC over the terrible wicket.
Ground staff members clean the pitch in Indore.
Ground staff members clean the pitch in Indore.

The problem is, as MPCA president Abhilash Khandekar told local media, the venue which has only hosted three Tests, is not responsible for pitch preparation.

“Two curators from BCCI had come eight to ten days before the match. The pitch was prepared under their supervision. The MPCA had no role in making the pitch,” he told the Times of India.

“I want to make it clear that just like any other state board association in international matches, MPCA has no role in making the pitch. BCCI curators come and they get the direction from BCCI along with the Indian team management,”

The Gabba received a “below average” rating when attempts to create a lively pitch against South Africa at the venue this season went awry and the game was over in two days.

While a green seamer is more to Australia’s liking, the visitors on the that occasion had one of the better pace attacks in the world with a roster of bowlers including Anrich Nortje and Kagiso Rabada.
Steve Smith and Travis Head inspect the wicket before the third Test.
Steve Smith and Travis Head inspect the wicket before the third Test.

Match referee Chris Broad slammed the Indore wicket.

“The pitch, which was very dry, did not provide a balance between bat and ball, favouring spinners from the start. The fifth ball of the match broke through the pitch surface and continued to occasionally break the surface providing little or no seam movement and there was excessive and uneven bounce throughout the match,” he said.

Cricket expects spinning wickets in India and many have defended the Holkar pitch, including the MPCA boss.

“As far as match finishing in three days is concerned, we have seen such of matches in Nagpur and Delhi also. There has been criticism of the pitch but if you will see the post-match conference, both captains have supported the pitch so we have nothing to add,” Khandekar said.

Australian coach Andrew McDonald labelled the conditions “extreme” but stand-in captain Steve Smith found an upside to the wicket when asked in public.


“All the wickets have spun, we haven’t gotten past three days yet so that shows that it’s been spinning from day one in all the Test matches but I personally I really enjoyed playing on these kind of wickets,” he said.

“I prefer this than just a genuine flat wicket that goes five days and can be boring in stages. There’s always something happening on these wickets. You’ve got to really work hard for your runs. But it’s showed that the guys can do it. Guys can do it, you’ve got to work hard for them and you need some luck. With this one, whether it might have been a little bit too extreme, potentially from the first ball. I’m not really entirely sure, but it was still another enjoyable.”

[st.byron]

I think that Australian wickets are consistent. Brisbane is nearly always a green top, Adelaide good for batting with a bit of movement, WACA was always quick.
Melbourne bit of a mixed bag and Sydney a turner.

Not so much nowadays. It's been homogenised with the era of drop in wickets. But no I don't think CA is in the background giving directions to the curators on what kind of wicket to prepare. Do you have any evidence of that? I recall earlier in this thread you surmised that one day we will find that CA was directly involved in sandpaper gate. Never seen any evidence of that either.

Not in any way defending sandpaper gate. Disgraceful. behaviour. I do though think the Ausiies got hung out to dry on the issue - not saying they shouldn't have been punished - am saying other teams have been ball tampering for a long time without account. Hello Poms and boiled lollies.

What is clear is that the Indian board and management are directly involved in directing their curators on what kind of wicket to prepare. Do you think its okay behaviour to not water a part of the wicket because the other team has numerous left handers?

At the very best it's highly unsporting and systemically so. At worst - and I can agree to some extent with Curly here - it's tantamount to cheating.
To me it lies somewhere in the middle of those poles.

It's also cultural. I've lived in India for over a year and visited there half a dozen times in my life. They will shamelessly take whatever they can get away with. They're pretty brazen about shafting others if the opportunity presents. That's my experience of them, broadly speaking. It's no.co-incidence that the world epicentre of scam call centres is India.

[The_Dud]

I think that Australian wickets are consistent. Brisbane is nearly always a green top, Adelaide good for batting with a bit of movement, WACA was always quick.
Melbourne bit of a mixed bag and Sydney a turner.

Not so much nowadays. It's been homogenised with the era of drop in wickets. But no I don't think CA is in the background giving directions to the curators on what kind of wicket to prepare. Do you have any evidence of that? I recall earlier in this thread you surmised that one day we will find that CA was directly involved in sandpaper gate. Never seen any evidence of that either.

Not in any way defending sandpaper gate. Disgraceful. behaviour. I do though think the Ausiies got hung out to dry on the issue - not saying they shouldn't have been punished - am saying other teams have been ball tampering for a long time without account. Hello Poms and boiled lollies.

What is clear is that the Indian board and management are directly involved in directing their curators on what kind of wicket to prepare. Do you think its okay behaviour to not water a part of the wicket because the other team has numerous left handers?

At the very best it's highly unsporting and systemically so. At worst - and I can agree to some extent with Curly here - it's tantamount to cheating.
To me it lies somewhere in the middle of those poles.

It's also cultural. I've lived in India for over a year and visited there half a dozen times in my life. They will shamelessly take whatever they can get away with. They're pretty brazen about shafting others if the opportunity presents. That's my experience of them, broadly speaking. It's no.co-incidence that the world epicentre of scam call centres is India.

I agree Australian pitches used to have character, but the drop-in pitch years have taken all that away (apart from the debacle that was Brisbane this season).

Here are a few paragraphs from cricket.com.au articles from the past:

(Regarding the upcoming Ashes Test at Lords in 2019)

"If there's no lateral movement, as we've seen in the last few days, Australia on exactly the same pitch have got so much more out of that surface than England got.

"It's a real problem now for England; they're going to have to go to their next ground and ask for a bit of grass on it. And their number one bowler Jimmy Anderson is probably not going to be available."

After the Ireland Test, Root was measured in his criticism of the surface prepared by Lord's groundsman Karl McDermott – who is in his first season as the venue's head curator – but said he would be surprised if a similar pitch was produced for the Ashes Test, which starts on August 14.

"I don't like saying this but the wicket was substandard for a Test match," Root said. "I thought it was … not even close to a fair contest between bat and ball throughout the whole game.

"When you are getting scores like that, that tells a story in itself.

(Regarding the pitch used for the 2017 Boxing Day Test)

If Australia and England were still playing the fourth Magellan Ashes Test on New Year's Day, Steve Smith believes the lifeless MCG pitch would still play the same way it did on Boxing Day.

The flat, slow wicket was widely criticised as an unfit stage for the storied Boxing Day Test match and the Australia skipper joined the chorus of condemnation after the game ended in a draw.

"I think it just needs to do something ... it hasn't changed over five days and I'd say if we were playing for the next couple of days it wouldn't change at all either," Smith said.

"It's got to find a way to have some pace and bounce or take some spin or do something.

"We saw some reverse swing but the ball just gets so soft so quickly because the surface is quite hard.

"It gets soft, doesn't carry through and it's really difficult to get people out.

"I just don't think it's good for anyone."

With the match lacking as a spectacle, Cricket Victoria chief executive Tony Dodemaide went so far as to suggest it might be time to dig up the drop-in wickets and start afresh with new soil and turf.


You still claim national cricket authorities across the world don't have influence over the pitches being produced? Influence can come in many different ways, but it's definitely there.

And I'll use some of your language back at you, do you have any evidence about selective watering, did you see them out in the middle with the hose? I saw a few photos days before with different coloured patches on the pitch (which easily could have been produced with a mower, before then mowing it all done to final height) and some quotes from groundsman. But as I said earlier, "mental warfare" is a very Australian tactic. Those photos won India the Test before a ball was bowled.

The evidence I did actually see when it came to play the Test was two ends that looked and played exactly the same for the left and right hand batsmen.

Your cultural assessment is also a good point I think. Having a population 50x and population density 140x that of Australia will lead to some differences. I am not comfortable as a nation saying to the world "this is the way we do it, it is the right way, everybody should do it the same as us" when clearly everyone is in different circumstances.

Maybe they do it the right way and we do it the worng way? Who knows. As I said earlier it's all a matter of perspective.

[George27]

My dear old grandpa used to tell me that cheats never prosper.

That was decades before the Indians had money and power.

Lol.

In 1700 India produced 25% of the world's GDP. In 1950, when the poms farked off, its contribution to the global GDP had declined to 4%.

There's been some dirty tactics and cheating going on for a little more than a few decades preceeding your dear old grandpa saynta.

That’s interesting.
The Brits were good at extracting raw materials at the expense of local value adding industries and it all contributed to India deindustrializing until the point of mutiny
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab ... B01BA84C01

Not something we think of based on high school history classes. We think of the colonizers helping - building railways, schools, hospitals , modern medicine etc. even though we accept that the locals were screwed by that system and stuck in paternal codependency with their rulers

…and aqueducts

[saynta]

I think that Australian wickets are consistent. Brisbane is nearly always a green top, Adelaide good for batting with a bit of movement, WACA was always quick.
Melbourne bit of a mixed bag and Sydney a turner.

Not so much nowadays. It's been homogenised with the era of drop in wickets. But no I don't think CA is in the background giving directions to the curators on what kind of wicket to prepare. Do you have any evidence of that? I recall earlier in this thread you surmised that one day we will find that CA was directly involved in sandpaper gate. Never seen any evidence of that either.

Not in any way defending sandpaper gate. Disgraceful. behaviour. I do though think the Ausiies got hung out to dry on the issue - not saying they shouldn't have been punished - am saying other teams have been ball tampering for a long time without account. Hello Poms and boiled lollies.

What is clear is that the Indian board and management are directly involved in directing their curators on what kind of wicket to prepare. Do you think its okay behaviour to not water a part of the wicket because the other team has numerous left handers?

At the very best it's highly unsporting and systemically so. At worst - and I can agree to some extent with Curly here - it's tantamount to cheating.
To me it lies somewhere in the middle of those poles.

It's also cultural. I've lived in India for over a year and visited there half a dozen times in my life. They will shamelessly take whatever they can get away with. They're pretty brazen about shafting others if the opportunity presents. That's my experience of them, broadly speaking. It's no.co-incidence that the world epicentre of scam call centres is India.

I agree Australian pitches used to have character, but the drop-in pitch years have taken all that away (apart from the debacle that was Brisbane this season).

Here are a few paragraphs from cricket.com.au articles from the past:

(Regarding the upcoming Ashes Test at Lords in 2019)

"If there's no lateral movement, as we've seen in the last few days, Australia on exactly the same pitch have got so much more out of that surface than England got.

"It's a real problem now for England; they're going to have to go to their next ground and ask for a bit of grass on it. And their number one bowler Jimmy Anderson is probably not going to be available."

After the Ireland Test, Root was measured in his criticism of the surface prepared by Lord's groundsman Karl McDermott – who is in his first season as the venue's head curator – but said he would be surprised if a similar pitch was produced for the Ashes Test, which starts on August 14.

"I don't like saying this but the wicket was substandard for a Test match," Root said. "I thought it was … not even close to a fair contest between bat and ball throughout the whole game.

"When you are getting scores like that, that tells a story in itself.

(Regarding the pitch used for the 2017 Boxing Day Test)

If Australia and England were still playing the fourth Magellan Ashes Test on New Year's Day, Steve Smith believes the lifeless MCG pitch would still play the same way it did on Boxing Day.

The flat, slow wicket was widely criticised as an unfit stage for the storied Boxing Day Test match and the Australia skipper joined the chorus of condemnation after the game ended in a draw.

"I think it just needs to do something ... it hasn't changed over five days and I'd say if we were playing for the next couple of days it wouldn't change at all either," Smith said.

"It's got to find a way to have some pace and bounce or take some spin or do something.

"We saw some reverse swing but the ball just gets so soft so quickly because the surface is quite hard.

"It gets soft, doesn't carry through and it's really difficult to get people out.

"I just don't think it's good for anyone."

With the match lacking as a spectacle, Cricket Victoria chief executive Tony Dodemaide went so far as to suggest it might be time to dig up the drop-in wickets and start afresh with new soil and turf.


You still claim national cricket authorities across the world don't have influence over the pitches being produced? Influence can come in many different ways, but it's definitely there.

And I'll use some of your language back at you, do you have any evidence about selective watering, did you see them out in the middle with the hose? I saw a few photos days before with different coloured patches on the pitch (which easily could have been produced with a mower, before then mowing it all done to final height) and some quotes from groundsman. But as I said earlier, "mental warfare" is a very Australian tactic. Those photos won India the Test before a ball was bowled.

The evidence I did actually see when it came to play the Test was two ends that looked and played exactly the same for the left and right hand batsmen.

Your cultural assessment is also a good point I think. Having a population 50x and population density 140x that of Australia will lead to some differences. I am not comfortable as a nation saying to the world "this is the way we do it, it is the right way, everybody should do it the same as us" when clearly everyone is in different circumstances.

Maybe they do it the right way and we do it the worng way? Who knows. As I said earlier it's all a matter of perspective.

You completely miss the f****** point. I will acknowledge it's only a matter of perspective when curators in this country start wearing the team uniform and Aussie captains get to pick which wicket we play on.

Until then I will maintain that what the Indians do is an indefensible form of cheating with a win their at all costs mentality.

Anyway, St B has their number even if you refuse to face facts

"It's also cultural. I've lived in India for over a year and visited there half a dozen times in my life. They will shamelessly take whatever they can get away with. They're pretty brazen about shafting others if the opportunity presents. That's my experience of them, broadly speaking. It's no.co-incidence that the world epicentre of scam call centres is India."

[The_Dud]

It’s not cheating, it’s a ‘loophole’! Definitely within the spirit of cricket

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/review- ... YirUeY3Ipg

[The_Dud]

Hmmm, not sure Australia needed to go into this one with 3 spinners, especially with your only 2 quicks just coming back from injury, looks like the pacemen will be much more involved this Test.