Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991908Post Teflon »

samoht wrote: Sat 07 Jan 2023 10:04am Would Collingwood have even come close in those 7 or so close games decided by a goal or so to display the "new found never say die attitude" without the better run with injury and without the addition of young Daicos??

That injury plus Daicos factor alone would probably make them a 6 goal better team, easy.

Look no further than the injuries to key players plus the Daicos factor. It's the only real factor in my view.

And let's not forget that Buckley played under a multi premiership coach and was his understudy ... and got his side to within a goal of winning the premiership.
Again you are MASSIVELY missing the turn around in game style
Collingwood under Buckley we’re a defensive first outfit
McRae said - **** that , take the game on never say die
Players responded
I can’t believe you can’t see the difference in coaching style - just an injury here or there or Daicos??
I’d argue crabbing around the boundary line like they did with Daicos added would not have yielded the sane results
6 goal better side cause of a new kid with no reference to HOW they played differently is missing the point
Again, your theory then is - a cardboard box can coach??? There is zero difference between Allistair Clarkson and Brett Ratten in your world except that ignores totally what a top line coach influences and brings and narrowly just looks at the list
If it’s ALL list - hang the coach then Leon Cameron at GWS should have 5 flags
He doesn’t.
It’s why elite coaches get paid the big bucks
They have the ability to bring a list/team together!


“Yeah….nah””
B.M
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12768
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2019 8:53pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2721 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991924Post B.M »

How did Lyon and Clarkson go in their finals years at Hawthorn and Freo without a team of champions?

How did Buckley get Collingwood to within 6 pts of a premiership in 2018? If he cannot coach??


User avatar
samoht
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5878
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:45am
Location: https://www.amazon.com.au/Fugitive-Sold ... B00EO1GCNK
Has thanked: 615 times
Been thanked: 460 times
Contact:

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991925Post samoht »

How was "top line coach" Lyon going in his final 4 years at Freo, Teflon ... and what happened to his genius game plan?

There are other much bigger factors at play, obviously.


Vortex
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6473
Joined: Fri 18 Sep 2020 6:51am
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1025 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991934Post Vortex »

samoht wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 7:37am How was "top line coach" Lyon going in his final 4 years at Freo, Teflon ... and what happened to his genius game plan?

There are other much bigger factors at play, obviously.

Teffers has a hard time acknowledging Lyon's last 4 years but has previously claimed his 33% win rate was due to injuries.

Is injuries an excuse?


B.M
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12768
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2019 8:53pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2721 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991936Post B.M »

Not for ‘bad coaches’


Vortex
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6473
Joined: Fri 18 Sep 2020 6:51am
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1025 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991937Post Vortex »

B.M wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 10:51am Not for ‘bad coaches’
But here's the confusing bit, so why to good coaches get the sack so often for having significant injury issues?


Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991946Post Teflon »

B.M wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 1:17am How did Lyon and Clarkson go in their finals years at Hawthorn and Freo without a team of champions?

How did Buckley get Collingwood to within 6 pts of a premiership in 2018? If he cannot coach??
Again SHOW me the post where I said Buckley can’t coach??
SHOW me the post where I said a coach alone is all you need???
PUT UP my posts or shut up.
Just keep answering your own ridiculous questions in your own head that no one’s asking so you can pretend you have a clue outside cliched nonsense.


“Yeah….nah””
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991947Post Teflon »

samoht wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 7:37am How was "top line coach" Lyon going in his final 4 years at Freo, Teflon ... and what happened to his genius game plan?

There are other much bigger factors at play, obviously.
AGAIN same moronic comments
I’m starting to think you’re BMs brother
SHOW me the post where I said you don’t need players????
Put it up and I’ll shut up
Oh and how did top line coach Lyon go in his first 4 years at Freo?
How did top line coach Clarkson go in his final years at Hawthorn???
Any idiot knows a side rebuilding (which Freo AND Hawks were in Lyon and Clarkson respective final years will take time)
I can’t believe that has to be explained on a footy website
Seriously- so on your logic unless Lyon or Clarkson win every game or the GF every year they can’t coach??
Just dumb.


“Yeah….nah””
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991948Post Teflon »

Vortex wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 10:47am
samoht wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 7:37am How was "top line coach" Lyon going in his final 4 years at Freo, Teflon ... and what happened to his genius game plan?

There are other much bigger factors at play, obviously.

Teffers has a hard time acknowledging Lyon's last 4 years but has previously claimed his 33% win rate was due to injuries.

Is injuries an excuse?
Teffers, like most in the footy world acknowledged Lyon did well at Freo and was rebuilding in the end
Again your logic is he has to win every game or gf or he’s no good as a coach?
It’s a nice troll Nexus but a bit obvious and basic..


“Yeah….nah””
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991949Post Teflon »

B.M wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 10:51am Not for ‘bad coaches’
No such thing as a bad coach in your world cause they’re all useless, overrated!
Heck GWS star studded list proved your theory..
Abs clubs throw money at Clarkson or Lyon cause they’re just “good blokes”
Simplistic much??


“Yeah….nah””
B.M
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12768
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2019 8:53pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2721 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991969Post B.M »

s*** clubs throw big money at successful coaches in the hope they will make them successful

Carlton did it with Pagan
Richmond with Jeans
Malthouse Carlton
Blight StK
Jezza StK
Barassi Melbourne

Could go on

And they all failed!

Coaches are definitely not unimportant but are definitely overrated! By Admins, Media and of course wishful fans!

Teffers
Do you really think 1 man can make a team of 22 players play better than they actually are?
I mean seriously, all ‘great coaches’ have the one thing in common - great teams!!!

Take that away from them - they struggle!

How did we rate Damien Hardwick in 2016?
Because he has a a master coach in 2021!!!!

Thanks largely to Dustin Martin!


Coaches help great players be great, and great teams be great… but they can’t turn s*** into strawberry jam!!!

In any one season there are only really 4-6 teams that are realistically a chance - and then injuries play a big part


Would you rather
A great list and an average coach
Or
A great coach with an average list

Players win games of footy imo, so I’ll take the list!


Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991983Post Teflon »

B.M wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 5:35pm s*** clubs throw big money at successful coaches in the hope they will make them successful

Carlton did it with Pagan
Richmond with Jeans
Malthouse Carlton
Blight StK
Jezza StK
Barassi Melbourne

Could go on

And they all failed!

Coaches are definitely not unimportant but are definitely overrated! By Admins, Media and of course wishful fans!

Teffers
Do you really think 1 man can make a team of 22 players play better than they actually are?
I mean seriously, all ‘great coaches’ have the one thing in common - great teams!!!

Take that away from them - they struggle!

How did we rate Damien Hardwick in 2016?
Because he has a a master coach in 2021!!!!

Thanks largely to Dustin Martin!


Coaches help great players be great, and great teams be great… but they can’t turn s*** into strawberry jam!!!

In any one season there are only really 4-6 teams that are realistically a chance - and then injuries play a big part


Would you rather
A great list and an average coach
Or
A great coach with an average list

Players win games of footy imo, so I’ll take the list!
Except GWS proves your theory is a crock
Great list , multiple top 10 picks ….couldn’t do it ???
So Hawks over paid Clarkson for 4 flags that could’ve coached themselves??
Lions with Matthews 3 peat?? Just ALL down to players ….Leigh had zip to do with it???
HORSESHYTE
Great coaches get the $ cause they have credibility in the industry to bring a side together CONSISTENTLY into a cohesive unit
Everyone and the industry is wrong…except Mart???
Righto ..


“Yeah….nah””
B.M
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12768
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2019 8:53pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2721 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991987Post B.M »

Hawthorn
Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Burgoyne, Rioli, Roughead, Gibson, Breust, Gunston

Brisbane
Voss, Akermanis, Lappin, Black, Brown, Power, Lynch, Leppitsch


Get my drift???


The coach has a role to play - the players actually perform


GWS
Played in 5 straight final series, 3 prelims and a GF
Along the way lost 20 players to other clubs and probably lacked a bit of experience in the end
BTW
Which poor team beat them?


User avatar
samoht
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5878
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:45am
Location: https://www.amazon.com.au/Fugitive-Sold ... B00EO1GCNK
Has thanked: 615 times
Been thanked: 460 times
Contact:

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1991994Post samoht »

Teflon ... for the last time (we're going around in circles)

All I'm saying is there are far bigger factors to a team's success ... playing list, injuries,, recruiting, player age profile, etc. (I haven't said that you're arguing you don't need players - it would've been moronic of me if I had) ... and in the big scheme of things, that a coach doesn't really make that much difference (given it's AFL coach vs AFL coach ... it's never AFL coach vs a pork chop).

And I've credited RL for getting on top of the soft-tissue injuries that we'd suffered under GT (by bringing the right people onboard), and this is the all-important area I'm hoping he can make a difference, once more.
The thing is, I don't expect RL's game plan to work any better than Ratten's if and when injuries come along and add up.

Anyway, I'm optimistic that we will do well this year with RL plus Hayes, Harvey and Goddard onboard.


Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992000Post Teflon »

B.M wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 7:05pm Hawthorn
Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Burgoyne, Rioli, Roughead, Gibson, Breust, Gunston

Brisbane
Voss, Akermanis, Lappin, Black, Brown, Power, Lynch, Leppitsch


Get my drift???


The coach has a role to play - the players actually perform


GWS
Played in 5 straight final series, 3 prelims and a GF
Along the way lost 20 players to other clubs and probably lacked a bit of experience in the end
BTW
Which poor team beat them?
Which poor team was poorly coached that beat them?
Get my drift???
Your points stating the obvious
*NEWSFLASH* “AFL side needs good players to win GF”
Big mart breaking news at 11….
Show me a poorly coached AFL Premiership team??
Oh and GWS lacked experience I agree ….in the coaching box I suspect with that list of top end talent and Clarkson driving them they’d have their flag
But you think Brett Ratten could’ve gotten them there… cause coach doesn’t matter right?
What’s “the role” of the coach in your illustrious AFL…I mean you’ve said it’s overrated…so can’t be much right ?
Do tell.


“Yeah….nah””
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992001Post Teflon »

samoht wrote: Sun 08 Jan 2023 8:28pm Teflon ... for the last time (we're going around in circles)

All I'm saying is there are far bigger factors to a team's success ... playing list, injuries,, recruiting, player age profile, etc. (I haven't said that you're arguing you don't need players - it would've been moronic of me if I had) ... and in the big scheme of things, that a coach doesn't really make that much difference (given it's AFL coach vs AFL coach ... it's never AFL coach vs a pork chop).

And I've credited RL for getting on top of the soft-tissue injuries that we'd suffered under GT (by bringing the right people onboard), and this is the all-important area I'm hoping he can make a difference, once more.
The thing is, I don't expect RL's game plan to work any better than Ratten's if and when injuries come along and add up.

Anyway, I'm optimistic that we will do well this year with RL plus Hayes, Harvey and Goddard onboard.
Respect your view Samoht but respectfully disagree
Your logic is any AFL coach is equal to another ..
So Scott Watters is equal to Leigh Matthews
Brett Ratten is equal to Clarkson he just needs players and list …
I think that is ignorant of all the things great AFL coaches bring to a club - one of which, as I’ve stated numerous times abd it’s been ignored by you and Marty conveniently, that is getting a side to perform consistently to a game style that stacks up.
I’ll ask again - Buckley left Collingwood….the club COMPLETELY overhauled and changed its gave style from defence to attack …
Did Nick Daicos, Pendles or DeGoey get together and install that style shift…..OR somebody else????
It’s not ALL just star players - no doubt they help but any orchestra needs a top line conductor and unlike you I don’t agree that all AFL coaches are equal. That’s nonsensical.
Yes going round in circles so best leave it at that.


“Yeah….nah””
User avatar
samoht
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5878
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:45am
Location: https://www.amazon.com.au/Fugitive-Sold ... B00EO1GCNK
Has thanked: 615 times
Been thanked: 460 times
Contact:

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992018Post samoht »

Macrae has yet to reach Buckley's heights if we use your logic .... Buckley took his team to within 5 points of winning the GF.
He got his team into the GF and narrowly missed out.

You left out injuries to 3 important players who missed half the season in Buckley's last year .... their CHB and FB, Howe and Moore plus clever forward Jamie Elliott, on top of young Daicos's debut. Young Daicos didn't miss a game - he was a star, and their leading disposal winner.

Macrae benefited from all this ... (compared to Buckley).

That adds up to a 6 goal better side, probably in 2022 compared to 2021 ... and let's not forget that they won a lot of close games under Macrae ... so, even if it only made a 2 goal difference, it'd have still been enough to win all those close games.

Let's look at the whole picture and take a realistic view of things .... not just the parts that seemingly suit our arguments/bias.
To reach a valid conclusion, you need to consider everything objectively, without preconceptions ...


B.M
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12768
Joined: Thu 04 Jul 2019 8:53pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2721 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992037Post B.M »

How do we know McRae is a great coach?

He’s coached 1 season

If we’re going on that, Ratten coached us to finals in his first season. 10-7 and won a final. And he finished with a career record of over 50%

Btw
I don’t rate Ratten that highly- just pointing it out

McRae may well end up a ‘great coach’ or things could go to shot for him? Who knows??

But to use him as an example of being a great coach is silly imo

I rated Bucks very highly, still do. He would have been my choice if Ross turned down StK


Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992075Post Teflon »

samoht wrote: Mon 09 Jan 2023 7:58am Macrae has yet to reach Buckley's heights if we use your logic .... Buckley took his team to within 5 points of winning the GF.
He got his team into the GF and narrowly missed out.

You left out injuries to 3 important players who missed half the season in Buckley's last year .... their CHB and FB, Howe and Moore plus clever forward Jamie Elliott, on top of young Daicos's debut. Young Daicos didn't miss a game - he was a star, and their leading disposal winner.

Macrae benefited from all this ... (compared to Buckley).

That adds up to a 6 goal better side, probably in 2022 compared to 2021 ... and let's not forget that they won a lot of close games under Macrae ... so, even if it only made a 2 goal difference, it'd have still been enough to win all those close games.

Let's look at the whole picture and take a realistic view of things .... not just the parts that seemingly suit our arguments/bias.
To reach a valid conclusion, you need to consider everything objectively, without preconceptions ...
Like you’ve done by totally ignoring the game style change lauded by Pie players and footy fans alike??
Ok…good “whole picture” example….


“Yeah….nah””
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992077Post Teflon »

B.M wrote: Mon 09 Jan 2023 11:12am How do we know McRae is a great coach?

He’s coached 1 season

If we’re going on that, Ratten coached us to finals in his first season. 10-7 and won a final. And he finished with a career record of over 50%

Btw
I don’t rate Ratten that highly- just pointing it out

McRae may well end up a ‘great coach’ or things could go to shot for him? Who knows??

But to use him as an example of being a great coach is silly imo

I rated Bucks very highly, still do. He would have been my choice if Ross turned down StK
Where did I say McRae was a “great coach” ??
Anyhoo it doesn’t matter
Pies players apparently got together at Portsea hotel and decided to change up their entire game plan after Buckley all by themselves…
McRae was in the toilet whole time… doing what coaches do …not much….
righto then


“Yeah….nah””
Teflon
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23247
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 11:44pm
Has thanked: 741 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992080Post Teflon »

samoht wrote: Mon 09 Jan 2023 7:58am Macrae has yet to reach Buckley's heights if we use your logic .... Buckley took his team to within 5 points of winning the GF.
He got his team into the GF and narrowly missed out.

You left out injuries to 3 important players who missed half the season in Buckley's last year .... their CHB and FB, Howe and Moore plus clever forward Jamie Elliott, on top of young Daicos's debut. Young Daicos didn't miss a game - he was a star, and their leading disposal winner.

Macrae benefited from all this ... (compared to Buckley).

That adds up to a 6 goal better side, probably in 2022 compared to 2021 ... and let's not forget that they won a lot of close games under Macrae ... so, even if it only made a 2 goal difference, it'd have still been enough to win all those close games.

Let's look at the whole picture and take a realistic view of things .... not just the parts that seemingly suit our arguments/bias.
To reach a valid conclusion, you need to consider everything objectively, without preconceptions ...
You need to spend less time looking at names on paper and more time watching the game to see how teams game style is impacted by coaching
No matter ….when ours is under Lyon I’ll be sure to pay you a visit and you can tell me “it’s all because Brett did the groundwork” lol


“Yeah….nah””
User avatar
Impatient Sainter
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4089
Joined: Tue 05 Apr 2016 3:30pm
Has thanked: 2622 times
Been thanked: 1078 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992091Post Impatient Sainter »

Lyon has obviously made errors and had less sucessful years coaching, but we all have to ask will he be a better coach this time around? I believe the answer is a definitive yes. Not because of the list, but because of the things he has learnt along the journey.

Will he and his assistants extract more out of the list than Ratten, again thats a definitive yes! They are already showing and training a significant change in game style, that will have the club playing a more offensive style of footy and lesson oppositions choking our forward entries.

Will he show he can develop a younger list? I think the club have all the right people around him to suggest he can! What development staff did he have during his first stint at the club - answer zero! Did he develop younger players at Freo, obviously he did in the latter years.

The next question is what better coaching options were available? Again zero, Buckley has said he is not interested in coaching again and any others were tied to clubs. Clarkson may have been an option if the club acted more quickly with the Ratten decision, but he has the discrimination stuff hanging over his head.

So all in all I am happy with the RTB version III and I think the club made exactly the right call on the coach to replace Ratts.


Vortex
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6473
Joined: Fri 18 Sep 2020 6:51am
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1025 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992093Post Vortex »

Impatient Sainter wrote: Mon 09 Jan 2023 4:24pm
They are already showing and training a significant change in game style, that will have the club playing a more offensive style of footy and lesson oppositions choking our forward entries.
You have obviously been to all the training sessions, you say "significant" change, I'm curious, what specificly has struck you as the main differences in set plays, is it shape and position around stoppages and/or ground covererage , is it an aerial or ground mechanism into F50?


User avatar
Devilhead
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8395
Joined: Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:56pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 1174 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992094Post Devilhead »

**BREAKING NEWS**

American Pro-Sports & AFL to ban Coaches as experts say that Coaches are surplus to requirements given the players are professional and smart enough to sort themselves out both on and off the field


The Devil makes work for idle hands!!!
User avatar
Impatient Sainter
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4089
Joined: Tue 05 Apr 2016 3:30pm
Has thanked: 2622 times
Been thanked: 1078 times

Re: Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

Post: # 1992127Post Impatient Sainter »

Vortex wrote: Mon 09 Jan 2023 4:39pm
Impatient Sainter wrote: Mon 09 Jan 2023 4:24pm
They are already showing and training a significant change in game style, that will have the club playing a more offensive style of footy and lesson oppositions choking our forward entries.
You have obviously been to all the training sessions, you say "significant" change, I'm curious, what specificly has struck you as the main differences in set plays, is it shape and position around stoppages and/or ground covererage , is it an aerial or ground mechanism into F50?
No just read all the information re training. The coaches are enforcing a 3 second rule, players only have 3 seconds before they have to play on. The mantra is quick ball movement and moving the ball at speed and not allowing oppositions to set up behind the play.


Post Reply