Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

[Teflon]

Thought this from BF Stav and others gives an insight into what Harves etc think of this group and the gap RTB has already uncovered as to where they need to be:

Stav BF

We had a quick chat with Cordy when he was autographing the kids' shirts... he was cooked.

Tough session? "Yep, there's some great runners at this club."

The big boys group were going at a fair clip in that session.
I think the flipside is also the change in coaching group.

I messaged a few a couple of weeks back that I had managed to run into and have a great chat to Harves for abit.

He was just saying that RTB feels like there is a lot of work to be done with this group.

We sit there and we can see that the boys have dropped a few KGs. Done more gym work etc.

But apparently some, not a lot. But some came back and missed their skinnies and weren’t running well.

He spoke abit about the group being a great bunch to take in all the info and do all the work they had asked of them. But then countered by saying what they were doing and used to wasn’t at the level required or the level RTB and Harves had felt at other clubs or Enright BJ and Lenny had experienced as players during their best times.

So he just kept circling back that there is a lot of work to do with this group as individuals. As a team. Fitness, game plan, prep etc.

But he also wanted to make clear, sky is the limit because it’s a very talented and deep group. He thought the majority was a mile away from their potential.

To ultimately circle back to Cordy, he has come in and everything has ramped up from 75 ->125% on the track and I could imagine it would be tough.

This is apparently the work load the 09/10 boys were doing after a few seasons under RTB and Mission. They have literally dropped them in. Thought the base fitness was good enough to throw them in.

[Teflon]

What I can say is that the Review findings did not differ from the submission by the Head Coach - including that, for a raft of reasons, the assessments of the List placed St Kilda 14th of 18

So, despite the injuries to key players, the Club outperformed their List ranking

Further, the strategy put by the Head Coach (and was in place, so buy in some experience and ability to stabilise, then invest in the Draft was not questioned and has not changed

From where the Club was when Rattan came from Hawthorn, the Club is much improved - which says something given the demographics of the List

It is improved because of the focus on development, development of younger players

Not all will succeed at the level, but we now have a solid core we can point to

With footy clubs (and elsewhere) it is all about building

To build you ideally have a solid foundation

Some of what is being peddled on here is abject speculation and abject nonsense

Rattan, for his part is positioning his career choice - and was hounded by NM, finally agreeing to working 3 days a week (including match days)

NM were not the only Club to approach him, simply they were ultra persistent and refused to take No for an answer

Given unavailability of players and the demographics of the List, the Club out performed under his on field leadership

And that is the Industry assessment

Simply we need support for King, support for Howard and support for Marshall - plus a better run with injuries

Is that support on our List?

The physical attributes are there - now it is about development of these kids

Here’s another morsel from OWS on BF re review findings - CE = Cory Enright

******

Have heard independently from a couple of people with usually good info that CE gave relatively alarming feedback to the review about standards in the coaching staff and playing group.

[Killa]

My contributions are not speculation

They are the fact

And he is receiving a full time salary for his 3 days, including match day assessments

Supporters of a football club are precisely that - they sit in the stands and barrack

And some compete for relevance on sites such as this - and need to be called out for their character assassinations such as we see on this Forum

Enright was an Assistant Coach under Brett, approached by Brett

Hayes was coming as Assistant Coach after being approached by Brett

Harvey left Hawthorn where he was under Contract - so Hawthorn did not hold him to his Contract

And how will Goddard’s persona play out?

Obviously all St Kilda supporters crave premiership success given the history of just one premiership in 150 years

And that craving leads to accusations as the reason for the lack of success - the lack of success dating back over 150 years which is the history of St Kilda FC

Acknowledging that if it were not for Lindsay banking with the same bank which banked St Kilda FC there would not be a St Kilda FC today, they would have been liquidated unable to meet their obligations

Then you had the Football Club and the Social Club divisions

Even possibly the most iconic player to ever represent St Kilda left to finish his career in Sydney

[Teflon]

My contributions are not speculation

They are the fact

And he is receiving a full time salary for his 3 days, including match day assessments

Supporters of a football club are precisely that - they sit in the stands and barrack

And some compete for relevance on sites such as this - and need to be called out for their character assassinations such as we see on this Forum

Enright was an Assistant Coach under Brett, approached by Brett

Hayes was coming as Assistant Coach after being approached by Brett

Harvey left Hawthorn where he was under Contract - so Hawthorn did not hold him to his Contract

And how will Goddard’s persona play out?

Obviously all St Kilda supporters crave premiership success given the history of just one premiership in 150 years

And that craving leads to accusations as the reason for the lack of success - the lack of success dating back over 150 years which is the history of St Kilda FC

Acknowledging that if it were not for Lindsay banking with the same bank which banked St Kilda FC there would not be a St Kilda FC today, they would have been liquidated unable to meet their obligations

Then you had the Football Club and the Social Club divisions

Even possibly the most iconic player to ever represent St Kilda left to finish his career in Sydney

I don’t believe calling out failings of the previous cos h who had 3 years free run in the top job is character assassination - there is ample evidence from those close to the club to suggest he was not up to the top job.
The whole empty “Why Not Us” sloganistic nonsense stolen from Bulkdogs 2016 campaign is a great example - it’s just empty cliches without any clear plan of “how” we were going to get there. Confused platitudes.

Me? I prefer this type of plan/motivation…

[saintsRrising]

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

So you reckon that next year alone is the test?

This is not a one year journey. Rats has trained a lot of poor to bad habits into a most of our list. That all has to unlearned, and then relearned.

2023 is mainly go to be about sorting the wheat from the chaff on our list. Getting a new game plan up and running. Getting more players to put in 4 quarter efforts, rather than the one quarter rap we saw in 2023.

All of that, and more, is not going to be done by Round 1, 2023.

[Teflon]

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

ISo you reckon that next year alone is the test?

This is not a one year journey. Rats has trained a lot of poor to bad habits into a most of our list. That all has to unleaned, and then relearned.

2023 is mainly go to be about sorting the wheat from the chaff on our list. Getting a new game plan up and running. Getting more players to put in 4 quarter efforts, rather than the one quarter rap we saw in 2023.

All of that, and more, is not going to be done by Round 1, 2023.

Correct
By end 2023 I think we’ll see some surprise trades abd players who can’t stand up moves on
It will take that season to gel players/coaches, bed down game plans etc
2024 is where we’ll need to start to see it come together

[Darth Vader]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Yep, but also the Luke Ball described by Ross as needing to improve his spread.

[WellardSaint]

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

ISo you reckon that next year alone is the test?

This is not a one year journey. Rats has trained a lot of poor to bad habits into a most of our list. That all has to unleaned, and then relearned.

2023 is mainly go to be about sorting the wheat from the chaff on our list. Getting a new game plan up and running. Getting more players to put in 4 quarter efforts, rather than the one quarter rap we saw in 2023.

All of that, and more, is not going to be done by Round 1, 2023.

Correct
By end 2023 I think we’ll see some surprise trades abd players who can’t stand up moves on
It will take that season to gel players/coaches, bed down game plans etc
2024 is where we’ll need to start to see it come together

'Surprise trades' is where a good list manager will show how good he is.
How do we trade a guy who is still contracted?
Pies did it with Treloar- paid him a lot of $ to leave.
RTB and the bean counter need to work out if we can afford to trade our Player X while offering Player Y from another club.
Interesting times ahead.

[saynta]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Yep, but also the Luke Ball described by Ross as needing to improve his spread.

I would think that Collingwood showed the boss that he didn't know his arse from his elbow when it came to Luke Ball.

[saynta]

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

ISo you reckon that next year alone is the test?

This is not a one year journey. Rats has trained a lot of poor to bad habits into a most of our list. That all has to unleaned, and then relearned.

2023 is mainly go to be about sorting the wheat from the chaff on our list. Getting a new game plan up and running. Getting more players to put in 4 quarter efforts, rather than the one quarter rap we saw in 2023.

All of that, and more, is not going to be done by Round 1, 2023.

Correct
By end 2023 I think we’ll see some surprise trades abd players who can’t stand up moves on
It will take that season to gel players/coaches, bed down game plans etc
2024 is where we’ll need to start to see it come together

'Surprise trades' is where a good list manager will show how good he is.
How do we trade a guy who is still contracted?
Pies did it with Treloar- paid him a lot of $ to leave.
RTB and the bean counter need to work out if we can afford to trade our Player X while offering Player Y from another club.
Interesting times ahead.

When has St Kilda ever come out on the right side of the ledger when it traded a player FFS?

[Darth Vader]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Yep, but also the Luke Ball described by Ross as needing to improve his spread.

I would think that Collingwood showed the boss that he didn't know his arse from his elbow when it came to Luke Ball.

His groin was better when he was at Collingwood than his final years with us. He was actually good the first half of 2009 with us, then dropped off in the second half of the year as he couldn't train much mid-week as his groin worsened. Ross definitely lost patience with him.

[saynta]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Yep, but also the Luke Ball described by Ross as needing to improve his spread.

I would think that Collingwood showed the boss that he didn't know his arse from his elbow when it came to Luke Ball.

His groin was better when he was at Collingwood than his final years with us. He was actually good the first half of 2009 with us, then dropped off in the second half of the year as he couldn't train much mid-week as his groin worsened. Ross definitely lost patience with him.

I think I'm on record more than once about what was the ultimate cost to us of the boss's loss of patience if that was what it truly was, rather than just a case of forgetfulness as was the coach's original explanation.

[B.M]

Do you know that for a fact

His groin seemed ok in the first half of the GF

I am a huge Ross fan - but he fkd up with Ball

[Impatient Sainter]

Do you know that for a fact

His groin seemed ok in the first half of the GF

I am a huge Ross fan - but he fkd up with Ball

He has admitted such in his time in the media.

[saynta]

Do you know that for a fact

His groin seemed ok in the first half of the GF

I am a huge Ross fan - but he fkd up with Ball

Yes he did. I reserve my opinion on the fan bit though.

[WellardSaint]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Yep, but also the Luke Ball described by Ross as needing to improve his spread.

I would think that Collingwood showed the boss that he didn't know his arse from his elbow when it came to Luke Ball.

His groin was better when he was at Collingwood than his final years with us. He was actually good the first half of 2009 with us, then dropped off in the second half of the year as he couldn't train much mid-week as his groin worsened. Ross definitely lost patience with him.

I think I'm on record more than once about what was the ultimate cost to us of the boss's loss of patience if that was what it truly was, rather than just a case of forgetfulness as was the coach's original explanation.

'Forgetful' about who is on the bench is plausible in a junior match in Alice Springs.
Top level AFL has many pairs of eyes watching everything

[Darth Vader]

Do you know that for a fact

His groin seemed ok in the first half of the GF

I am a huge Ross fan - but he fkd up with Ball

He definitely struggled to see out games, and conditions were very heavy, so good first half followed by sore second half makes sense.

What I do know for a fact is that I’m very sceptical of the “I forgot to play him” excuse. Ross didn’t want to admit he rolled the dice on a sore player and it didn’t work out.

[B.M]

Sore my arse

He was nearly Best on in the first half!

Just a fk up

As was the exit of Ball - a massive cluster fk

The 2009-10 off season was the beginning of the end for StK at the time.

[Teflon]

Do you know that for a fact

His groin seemed ok in the first half of the GF

I am a huge Ross fan - but he fkd up with Ball

He definitely struggled to see out games, and conditions were very heavy, so good first half followed by sore second half makes sense.

What I do know for a fact is that I’m very sceptical of the “I forgot to play him” excuse. Ross didn’t want to admit he rolled the dice on a sore player and it didn’t work out.

I think that’s right
Mart has again derailed a discussion - had NOTHING to do with Balls tackle count
If all you have to do to be an AFL footballer is tackle then Dunstan could be a star
Once again, do your homework and go back and actually READ what Lyons issues with Ball were
And Saynta “he’s on record” - what record and who gives a rats fat cracker about his “I’m on record” …
And IF we REALLY want to get serious on Luke Ball - who was the previous coach who flogged him through OP, kept playing him and did **** all to properly invest inn”training services…”
Suspect the usual revisionist crew will gloss over that…
Our injury problems from that era were never addresses until Lyon brought Misson on..
Carry on making up drivel…

[Teflon]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Yep, but also the Luke Ball described by Ross as needing to improve his spread.

I would think that Collingwood showed the boss that he didn't know his arse from his elbow when it came to Luke Ball.

His groin was better when he was at Collingwood than his final years with us. He was actually good the first half of 2009 with us, then dropped off in the second half of the year as he couldn't train much mid-week as his groin worsened. Ross definitely lost patience with him.

Correct
Factual
Ross didn’t play him second half GF but he WAS NOT the difference
That aside his inability to spread from contest was mentioned ad-nauseam
Tackles??? WTF did that have to do with Lyon not rating Luke Ball??
Nonsense

[B.M]

I reckon that’s a load of s***

[B.M]

For someone who couldn’t spread

He got 22 possessions in 60% game time and laid 7 tackles

Remarkable

[Teflon]

For someone who couldn’t spread

He got 22 possessions in 60% game time and laid 7 tackles

Remarkable

We’ll you know more than Ross Lyon so I won’t argue with you
Funny how everyone else recalls Lyons issue with Ball but you’re sure that’s BS cause he got 22 possessions…that demonstrates running power alone that number….
Anyhoo

[B.M]

Seriously

Do you think Ross erred in not playing Ball in the fourth quarter of the 2009 GF?

Ross is obviously a good coach, good coaches fk up

He clearly fkd up

If you don’t know that, you’re either an apologist or clueless?

What I do know
His possession rate versus TOG was the most in the game
His tackle rate vs TOG was also the highest

It was a joke

And his exit was a massive cluster fk

He went to Collingwood for zilch - we got nothing!
Had over 500 possession and 100 tackles in both 2010 & 2011 and finished top 5 in their B&F and won a premiership

[Yorkeys]

No one can say what would have happened if Ball had played more in that last quarter.

What followed shows Ball found it untenable to play under Ross. And Ross wasn't all that fussed about that.

Luke's success at Collingwood doesn't necessarily represent vindication either way. Different team environment and possibly Luke took Ross's opinion on board through gritted teeth and made some adjustments.

I saw Luke play some poor games for the Saints during that time, skill errors a plenty at important times.

He's no martyr. Bounced back well and good luck to him. But he wasn't that badly treated.