Lyon and his vision of our 2023 game style.

[saynta]

https://www.saints.com.au/news/1259373/ ... game-style

[Vortex]

“I think the trend now has been to go forward more quickly. The uncontested and control game is disappearing.

“There’s times you need it – either through injury or time of the game or you’re under pressure, but fundamentally that shape and control and uncontested mark game is (disappearing).




...or lack of talent and skill?

[The Fireman]

I’m sure Lyon will be able to extract the very best out of our talented and skilful list

[Darth Vader]

I’m sure Lyon will be able to extract the very best out of our talented and skilful list

I hope/expect him to extract the very best, but I'm sure he'll extract more than his predecessor. And his predecessor's predecessor. And the one before that too. And ideally even the one before that.

[Scollop]

I predict there'll be some on here extracting their tongues out of his bumhole soon enough when reality bites

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

[CQ SAINT]

I predict there'll be some on here extracting their tongues out of his bumhole soon enough when reality bites

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

Are you thinking that GT bankrolled the messiah, so he can lead the church band again. Lol

[CQ SAINT]

He could replace Lyon with Roo and Leathlean with hmmmm.

[CQ SAINT]

Lol.

[Teflon]

I’m sure Lyon will be able to extract the very best out of our talented and skilful list

I hope/expect him to extract the very best, but I'm sure he'll extract more than his predecessor. And his predecessor's predecessor. And the one before that too. And ideally even the one before that.

Spot on
What hope did cuddles have of extracting anything??
Honestly looked like he was about to explode in the end
There may be some posters here who’ll also need to extract things from other posters on site…then again they might like the idea abd just leave it..

[Josh Battle]

I’m sure Lyon will be able to extract the very best out of our talented and skilful list

I hope/expect him to extract the very best, but I'm sure he'll extract more than his predecessor. And his predecessor's predecessor. And the one before that too. And ideally even the one before that.

Spot on
What hope did cuddles have of extracting anything??
Honestly looked like he was about to explode in the end
There may be some posters here who’ll also need to extract things from other posters on site…then again they might like the idea abd just leave it..

You are…speaking from personal experience are you?

[Teflon]

I’m sure Lyon will be able to extract the very best out of our talented and skilful list

I hope/expect him to extract the very best, but I'm sure he'll extract more than his predecessor. And his predecessor's predecessor. And the one before that too. And ideally even the one before that.

Spot on
What hope did cuddles have of extracting anything??
Honestly looked like he was about to explode in the end
There may be some posters here who’ll also need to extract things from other posters on site…then again they might like the idea abd just leave it..

You are…speaking from personal experience are you?

That’s hurtful Josh - has my opinion upset you in some way?
If so I do apologise profusely
Keep extracting!!

[Yorkeys]

I’m sure Lyon will be able to extract the very best out of our talented and skilful list

I hope/expect him to extract the very best, but I'm sure he'll extract more than his predecessor. And his predecessor's predecessor. And the one before that too. And ideally even the one before that.

That seems a very fair and reasonable expectation - generally - the however being the assumption all players were not giving all they can, for whatever.

I think, imho, some of our players just have no more to give in terms of talent, effort and footy smarts, and we possibly over estimate them.
Like Darth (?) I expect a big improvement in team synergy, how individuals are used and how they team together. It may be that Ross this time round will use his early capital to promote and play a few more newer and younger guys on the list trading off experience and body size for enthusiasm, innate skill and new experience - invest in the near future.

Speculating from ignorance: Brett might have got so terribly frustrated and out of explanations because he over estimated the group's capacities as well. If you have no more to give or cannot cope with big occasions then pleading and cajoling for more just won't work. Maybe Brett did not accept the reality of what he had to work with and how he utilised it. But Fred was smart enough to see what Brett could not?

[Killa]

For all the unjustified criticism of Brett, he took St Kilda to a win in a finals series and narrowly missed finals participation over the last 2 seasons

With List deficiencies and with key injuries

You can only build on what you have - and that build takes time invested as it is in 18 year olds coming from Under-age competitions

The number of class players shifting Clubs is minimal - and to attract them is an exercise in itself

There has been no change of strategy by the Club

After repairing the List in as far as they could the focus is and remains on the Draft

Noting that, having narrowly missed finals or playing in finals over the past 3 Seasons we have not had the luxury of Number 1 Draft picks - and few top 10 Draft picks

Reality people, reality

Brett improved the List and improved the performance of the Club over his 3 years

[Impatient Sainter]

I agree Killa he put his heart and sole into the job, but as we all know he had limitations. Has was holding us back from getting 110% out of the list, as his game plan and match day coaching were not up to par.

Next season will show how out dated Ratts slow possession game plan was, and how it adversely affected the players psyche in the 2nd half of the year. They were trying as hard as any team but their systems were so poor, no matter how hard they tried they lost. After a time players started dropping off in their efforts.

[The Fireman]

I liked ratten as a bloke
I like rtb as a coach

Question to Vertollop
Should we have not made these changes?

[Saintmatt]

I predict there'll be some on here extracting their tongues out of his bumhole soon enough when reality bites

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

I don't see it that way at all (even though I'm still sceptical as to whether RL can re-create the magic dust from his last tenure).

My personal expectation for 2023 is simple. I think it will be a year much like 2007 where it took best part of a season for RL to enforce new disciplines, implement and bed down a recognisable and repeatable game plan with much more structure (incorporating a Plan B, C etc) and identifying which of our present playing personnel can actually play the chosen game style ... before then deciding on what our drafting and recruiting needs look like from late 2023 onwards.

My judgement on RL and his new coaching group will begin in 2024; not 2023

[shanegrambeau]

For all the unjustified criticism of Brett, he took St Kilda to a win in a finals series and narrowly missed finals participation over the last 2 seasons

With List deficiencies and with key injuries

You can only build on what you have - and that build takes time invested as it is in 18 year olds coming from Under-age competitions

The number of class players shifting Clubs is minimal - and to attract them is an exercise in itself

There has been no change of strategy by the Club

After repairing the List in as far as they could the focus is and remains on the Draft

Noting that, having narrowly missed finals or playing in finals over the past 3 Seasons we have not had the luxury of Number 1 Draft picks - and few top 10 Draft picks

Reality people, reality

Brett improved the List and improved the performance of the Club over his 3 years

I think St Kilda stagnated under Ratts.

Let’s face some facts.

We will begin season ‘23 with our leading forward hitting 29 years old. (Membrey) His support cast is highly sketchy and not established yet.

Our three main engine room players will still be Jones (he’ll be 28, Crouch, he’ll be 29, and Ross, he’ll be 30, Hill he’ll be up there too, by the end of May!
)

Same guys. Same doubts.

Now we have loads of promising talent.
Loads of it.

I wrote that Max King is one serious injury away from being unjustly prone last year, and we have it. But I’ll put my hand up here and say I was being overly skeptical..and shoulder reco s have good prognosis…(but they can do another one) To be honest, Maxy looks like he should be called Bryant May - he looks like he made of match sticks.. rice Reid the cricket..He will have to find a way to play that suits his physique and that won’t gonna be full-forward being sandwiched and crunched by monsters.

We have a long list of promising youngsters without a position sorted …which is fine..but we can’t say how they will go.

We can say our established players are still the same, and they are getting old and they were never stars in the first place. All good B graders except Hill. Members possibly an A minus.

As we have had for years…

What happens now will be fascinating, but there is no way you can say we were going places under Ratts.

Ratts did well with what he had…a credit to him that the mediocre list was still competitive.

[skeptic]

Personal opinion -

All coaches need the freedom to back in their judgement/plan and have it realised. The logic in this is that obviously they can’t realistically build towards something they don’t believe in. Ridiculous example to illustrate the point - say RTB really doesn’t rate King and can’t see the club bring successful with him as the major forward (which is obv untrue). But in this fictions example, one couldn’t then realistically expect RTB to build a successful list and game plan centred around King without something shifting. So therefore it would be reasonable for him to try other approaches before eventually moving King on.

And as the coach we’ve backed to lead us… he lives and dies by the results of the decisions he makes. As did Ratts, Richo and every other coach ever.

That’s why there are often really mystifying selection decisions that occur from time to time. Richo for example really really believed in Newnes and gave him every opportunity to be the player that he thought Jack would/could become.

Ratts ultimately (IMO) got too many of these key decisions wrong and it burned him.

Right from the get go, he really leaned into the small forward strategy that saw Kent, Lonie, Butler, Long, Higgins, Parker and Hind at times get a plethora games that they didn’t always deserve on performance and outcome.

Kent played way too many games for a guy with his output and lack of weapons. Lonie had a peculiar set of skills for the style that he wanted to play. Parker got the least development of the three despite arguably having the best features…
Hind and Long both tended to demonstrate that they’re best footy was perhaps up the ground and ultimately left us without Ratts figuring how to utilise either best.

Meanwhile in the second 1/2 of 2022, Higgins kept taking his marks outside 45m where he couldn’t make the distance and Butler struggled to capitalise on the 3v1 kick to King strategy.

The point of all of this is between the wrong players he backed, the confusion with what to do with Hill, the small forward strategy, the 3v1 to King and other bits and pieces…
Ratten to me simply didn’t land on the right approach/strategy. He got every opportunity to bring his vision to reality and he obviously wasn’t a complete disaster but more often than not, the strategy didn’t hold up… the players he picked whether lacking the talent/application or injury prone couldn’t deliver on what he wanted them to do. And he ultimately paid the price for that.

[shanegrambeau]

Personal opinion -

All coaches need the freedom.... lives and dies by the results...

That’s why there are often really mystifying selection decisions...

Ratts ultimately (IMO) got too many of these key decisions wrong.....

...leaned into the small forward strategy...

...

...(Ratts) got every opportunity to bring his vision to reality and he obviously wasn’t a complete disaster but more often than not, the strategy didn’t hold up… the players he picked whether lacking the talent/application or injury prone couldn’t deliver on what he wanted them to do. And he ultimately paid the price for that.

Good points.

Can't disagree.

But I keep saying it...

I was really concerned about whether the coach still pulls all the reins.

Lyon has a lot of hyperbole spinning around now...that halo might emit a force field into his brain, piercing his bald patch and instil a warm fuzzy feeling he wants to keep. And he will delegate a lot more of the subjective stuff, including decision making, selection, strategy etc., to others..

But his assistants seem good and probably look up to him, so...let's see.

Edit : and lets not forget Ratts had a 50% win rate..pretty good.

[Teflon]

I predict there'll be some on here extracting their tongues out of his bumhole soon enough when reality bites

Could be some knives wanting to be inserted in his back next year rather than any extracting going on

I don't see it that way at all (even though I'm still sceptical as to whether RL can re-create the magic dust from his last tenure).

My personal expectation for 2023 is simple. I think it will be a year much like 2007 where it took best part of a season for RL to enforce new disciplines, implement and bed down a recognisable and repeatable game plan with much more structure (incorporating a Plan B, C etc) and identifying which of our present playing personnel can actually play the chosen game style ... before then deciding on what our drafting and recruiting needs look like from late 2023 onwards.

My judgement on RL and his new coaching group will begin in 2024; not 2023

Yep great post Matt that’s how I see it too
Lyon doesn’t have the 08/09 list at his disposal so that’s the fascinating but for me - I’m a RTB fan but let’s be real now is his time to show the footy world he can build a list up and challenge
Won’t be 23
From 24 on I’m looking for a system to be very clear and for the gap between our best and worst (an absolute chasm under Ratten) to be significantly closed

[Teflon]

Personal opinion -

All coaches need the freedom to back in their judgement/plan and have it realised. The logic in this is that obviously they can’t realistically build towards something they don’t believe in. Ridiculous example to illustrate the point - say RTB really doesn’t rate King and can’t see the club bring successful with him as the major forward (which is obv untrue). But in this fictions example, one couldn’t then realistically expect RTB to build a successful list and game plan centred around King without something shifting. So therefore it would be reasonable for him to try other approaches before eventually moving King on.

And as the coach we’ve backed to lead us… he lives and dies by the results of the decisions he makes. As did Ratts, Richo and every other coach ever.

That’s why there are often really mystifying selection decisions that occur from time to time. Richo for example really really believed in Newnes and gave him every opportunity to be the player that he thought Jack would/could become.

Ratts ultimately (IMO) got too many of these key decisions wrong and it burned him.

Right from the get go, he really leaned into the small forward strategy that saw Kent, Lonie, Butler, Long, Higgins, Parker and Hind at times get a plethora games that they didn’t always deserve on performance and outcome.

Kent played way too many games for a guy with his output and lack of weapons. Lonie had a peculiar set of skills for the style that he wanted to play. Parker got the least development of the three despite arguably having the best features…
Hind and Long both tended to demonstrate that they’re best footy was perhaps up the ground and ultimately left us without Ratts figuring how to utilise either best.

Meanwhile in the second 1/2 of 2022, Higgins kept taking his marks outside 45m where he couldn’t make the distance and Butler struggled to capitalise on the 3v1 kick to King strategy.

The point of all of this is between the wrong players he backed, the confusion with what to do with Hill, the small forward strategy, the 3v1 to King and other bits and pieces…
Ratten to me simply didn’t land on the right approach/strategy. He got every opportunity to bring his vision to reality and he obviously wasn’t a complete disaster but more often than not, the strategy didn’t hold up… the players he picked whether lacking the talent/application or injury prone couldn’t deliver on what he wanted them to do. And he ultimately paid the price for that.

Yep
The apologists simplifying it “poor Brett just didn’t have the cattle/had injuries” blah blah
Completely ignore the fact - Brett was head coach. Brett had choices and made them. Too often, as you’ve perfectly outlined, the wrong ones!!
My opinion only:
I think Bassatt and the Board uncovered a whole lot more cr@p that wasn’t working behind the scenes under Brett….I genuinely believe the “review” didn’t go as hard at Brett as internally some might have felt….
Brett’s a nice fella - no one wants to shoot Bambi
But Brett was way out of his depth
His match selection
His dated game plan (once sides realised we ran 1 way abd Higgins/Butler etc just like to duck out the back to score they stopped us)
Zero plan B Brett
Lyon has ALREADY indicated he wants players who run - why???
He won’t allow them to run 1 way that won’t be acceptable
Ask Luke Ball.

[Killa]

What I can say is that the Review findings did not differ from the submission by the Head Coach - including that, for a raft of reasons, the assessments of the List placed St Kilda 14th of 18

So, despite the injuries to key players, the Club outperformed their List ranking

Further, the strategy put by the Head Coach (and was in place, so buy in some experience and ability to stabilise, then invest in the Draft was not questioned and has not changed

From where the Club was when Rattan came from Hawthorn, the Club is much improved - which says something given the demographics of the List

It is improved because of the focus on development, development of younger players

Not all will succeed at the level, but we now have a solid core we can point to

With footy clubs (and elsewhere) it is all about building

To build you ideally have a solid foundation

Some of what is being peddled on here is abject speculation and abject nonsense

Rattan, for his part is positioning his career choice - and was hounded by NM, finally agreeing to working 3 days a week (including match days)

NM were not the only Club to approach him, simply they were ultra persistent and refused to take No for an answer

Given unavailability of players and the demographics of the List, the Club out performed under his on field leadership

And that is the Industry assessment

Simply we need support for King, support for Howard and support for Marshall - plus a better run with injuries

Is that support on our List?

The physical attributes are there - now it is about development of these kids

[B.M]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

[Teflon]

Is that Luke Ball - who’s tackle numbers were elite?

Oh so Lyon had issues with his tackle numbers and not his inability to run/break from stoppages????
Think you might need to go back and do some reading and maybe for once answer the current question/topic and not the one you dream up in your head to make you soubd footy knowledgeable..,

I didn’t get an answer to my question oh great sage …
Show me where Ross Lyon says he had a problem with Luke Ball tackle numbers???????

Or maybe just keep answer your own made up questions instead ..,

[Teflon]

What I can say is that the Review findings did not differ from the submission by the Head Coach - including that, for a raft of reasons, the assessments of the List placed St Kilda 14th of 18

So, despite the injuries to key players, the Club outperformed their List ranking

Further, the strategy put by the Head Coach (and was in place, so buy in some experience and ability to stabilise, then invest in the Draft was not questioned and has not changed

From where the Club was when Rattan came from Hawthorn, the Club is much improved - which says something given the demographics of the List

It is improved because of the focus on development, development of younger players

Not all will succeed at the level, but we now have a solid core we can point to

With footy clubs (and elsewhere) it is all about building

To build you ideally have a solid foundation

Some of what is being peddled on here is abject speculation and abject nonsense

Rattan, for his part is positioning his career choice - and was hounded by NM, finally agreeing to working 3 days a week (including match days)

NM were not the only Club to approach him, simply they were ultra persistent and refused to take No for an answer

Given unavailability of players and the demographics of the List, the Club out performed under his on field leadership

And that is the Industry assessment

Simply we need support for King, support for Howard and support for Marshall - plus a better run with injuries

Is that support on our List?

The physical attributes are there - now it is about development of these kids

Sorry you talk about “abject speculation” then spew out that.
Half mixed with “Brett was hounded by NM”
If I was a betting man I’d wager Brett will never senior coach again - he’s cooked.
Proven at 2 clubs now (and I have Carlton mates who just smiled at me in 2020 when I was lauding Brett for his 1 way attacking game plan….they laughed louder when I was bemoaning the fact he had 1 gear…).
You can’t claim Ratten was all about our development and then suggest he also wasn’t part of the reason we drafted a bunch of other club rejects to top up - because Brett (and the rest of his footy department it must be said) OVERSOLD to the Board that this list was “in the window”
Do you really think Bassatt, a non footy guy, dreamt that up by himself????
Ofcourse he didn’t
By the time the arse fell out of the playing list and game plan end last year Bassatt realised….the Emperor (Brett!) had no clothes.
I’m truly sorry as I like Ratten but this attempt to paint him as a pure victim after 3 years as head coach is utter nonsense
I’m not surprised he landed a p/t assistant gig - I think he’s a good assistant (just like I believe Rob Harvey is and should not be head coach).