Is Lyon mark 2 the right fit for the saints

[Josh Battle]

Lyon mark 2 at the Saints will be relying on all the tried and trusted methods that he’s used in the past (as well as some copying of the brands from recent premiers) and he’ll be looking for inspiration from his assistants to try and get the best out of the talent on the list.

Premierships are won by clubs that have the discipline and the management skills to stick to a plan that is years in the making. We’re at year zero and we need to nurture a bunch of kids for the next four years.

Here’s what Ross Lyon did at Freo at the end of 2018. He rushed their rebuild in my opinion

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/ross-l ... 2739456b13

I don’t think Ross Lyon is going to bring anything revolutionary to the St Kilda FC. The list build is the key

The other issue is that they are looking at starting from scratch with a new game plan and that always takes time. Here’s what Nathan Fyfe was saying ahead of the 2019 season for Freo

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/dev ... 517ut.html

[Josh Battle]

It’s easy to reminisce about all the good stuff and ignore the negatives. It’s like picking up a player with baggage isn’t it?

You can’t ignore it. It never really disappears

Here’s what Freo fans were saying four years into into their rebuild (Ross’s last year there)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/ ... n/11343242

Apart from the politics, there were serious issues with the game plan and with the list build and with the culture at Fremantle during his last few years there. Here's what the media was saying when he got the sack in 2019

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-20 ... 41610a21e2

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/too ... 52j4b.html

[Vortex]

I reckon Lyon has had his day, but will probably do a little better than Ratts, who got found out tactically in many games. Lyon can approach the season without a true FF, so his game plan will be interesting to see

Lyon is a proven performer in most aspects of coaching, his greatest weakness is the clubs greatest weakness, talent acquisition and list development. In Lyon's final year at Freo, he was being heavily criticised for the teams poor skills and a poor game plan.

Hopefully Bassett hasn't allowed Lyon to have too much control and puts the right resources into talent acquisition and skills development, and hopefully Bassett has put some much better monitoring in place this time to ensure we don't get a few years down the track and learn things are still a mess, I'm still amazed that this area of the club is still a shambles.

Revisionist cliched theory
Lyon in his last year at Freo was decimated by injury - go read Riewoldts article on how well he had done
Go read Pavlich who stated anyone saying he “can’t develop “ is talking out their arse… (see Brayshaw, Serong etc brought on and developed under Lyon)
It’s just lazy Herald Sun opinion with no fact
Lyon is the coach - talent acquisition isn’t his job FFS that’s list management ???
As for “I hope Bassatt has out things in place..” blah blah
What’s Geoff Walsh chop liver ???????
Lyon himself has said he’ll be footy focused and less in the weeds
Again I’ll ask but still you won’t answer
The club had sunk to 3-11 at seasons end
What would you have done differently???????
Let me guess…keep Brett????

Brett had lots of injuries too this season

Head over to BF and read this thread for starters...

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ ... n.1213411/

the general vibe in that thread is Lyon had let the quality of the list deteriorate significantly and let skills slip badly and there are heaps of unhappy campers giving advice for free on what they thought of his game plan and game day performances.

facts are Ross has the reputation he can't build a list and doesn't rates skills, as we know he rates effort and role players, he admitted that again recently in an interview that he never reviewed the list before Bassett gave him the job.

Good coach but has weaknesses, some would argue serious weaknesses.

[samuraisaint]

I reckon Lyon will be like Alan Jeans was when he was at Hawthorn.

Best man for the job I reckon.

Next season might be a bit tough as a transition year, but I expect some exciting games in 2023.

[Josh Battle]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

[saynta]

I am a lot more confident with our current coaching set up than I was under Ratten. I am confident Lyon has learnt a lot from his previous stints and believe he will be a better development coach this time around. The changes are already evidenced by his willingness to have the assistants develop the game plan and run training. I dont think he was bad in the development space previously, he was just that focussed on winning he sometimes overlooked younger players who werent screaming to be picked.

It was obvious Ratten was out of his depth in the 2nd half of the year, he simply had no answers other than 'pressure indicators'. After losing players to injury his coaching was unimaginative and lacked any lateral thinking what so ever.

If we can win more than 50% of games until Max returns and then have some luck with injuries, I am quietly confident we will play finals. Having said that I would like to see RTB find a balance between winning and still getting games into the kids that deserve their opportunities. In 2023 our team ethos should be to have as many players debut as possible eg Heath, Phillipou, Van Es, Hotton, & (Eyre, Stocker/Stack), if listed. I will be surprised if Keeler, Allison & Adams can force themselves into the team next year just because of a lack physical development.

I would also like to see the other fringe players in Bytel & Byrnes rewarded if their form warrants it. Particularly if any midfielders have dips in form like they did at times last season. Howard was another who I believe had a below average season and needs to step up and show more onfield leadership. I would hope that our list depth allows the group to keep the more experienced players on notice that they have to perform every week and cant pick and chose when to give maximum effort.

Good post.

[Vortex]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A quote from this article sums up the genuine concern and what will be what the media will watch closely:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/ ... n/11343242

In his first four years at the helm of Fremantle, while challenging for a premiership, one of the major criticisms of Lyon remained an inability to introduce and develop new players.

Fremantle's skill level continues to haunt it, despite the obvious effort and desire.

While it may point to bigger issues to do with recruiting, it may not be that simple.

A former Fremantle staff member involved in recruitment at the club told the ABC Lyon never prioritised skills in the recruiting process.

Lyon has previously said he does not coach skill, he coaches effort.

[skeptic]

Lyon’s major weakness has always been that he has overvalued the contribution of his role players.

In his first stint with us he carried guys like Eddy, McQaulter, Dempster (as a defensive forward not the later model) and a number of other mediocre/out of form players.
He believed their corralling, positioning, pressure acts etc made a big difference when it was in fact his stars that consistently won matches and stepped up when it mattered.

RL quickly and correctly identified/leaned into the mantra of relying on his best players. And why wouldn’t you. Success always comes from the exceptional doing exceptional things.

His failure has always been that he’d rather play an out of form Gardiner ahead of a developing McEvoy, or a struggling Peake ahead of an Armitage or a lacklustre McQualter/Eddy ahead of a Steven.

The cost of rewarding the mediocre… the playing for the now when they do the bare minimum is you take away the opportunities for people that aren’t as god but have talent, to get better.

From Lyon’s era with us McEvoy, Geary, Armitage, Steven and Lynch are names that got better very quickly when they either started playing elsewhere or after Lyon left.

That’s the adjustment that he needs to make

[Josh Battle]

The bigger picture is that fans want to see successful teams. There’s also pressure when you are in a city like Perth and you see your rivals winning a premiership in 2018. Freo were in a Grand final in 2013 and playing deep in September as late as 2015.

After Freo started sliding down the ladder in 2016 and they went down the path of a rebuild they had some absolutely massive wins as far as trades were concerned.

The Fremantle FC had the opportunity to bring in top 10 draft talent while they still had quality players on their list that could help fast track that high end youth. It’s no accident that they were in the top 8 in 2022. They have a very good young list.

Lyon felt the pressure from fans, sponsors and the media and the board gave him every chance. I think he had far too much influence and that meant he wanted to import success instead of nurturing it and helping to create a winning team with the talent already there.

Instead of trusting the youth and letting them build something as a collective, the coach wanted to recruit ready made talent. I think the results in 2019 were the main reason that Fremantle gave him the lemon

Those pressures aren’t going away at St Kilda. It will be an intense struggle between short term face saving and career saving short term decisions versus the strategic, long term patience required to build a premiership capable list

[The Fireman]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A quote from this article sums up the genuine concern and what will be what the media will watch closely:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/ ... n/11343242

In his first four years at the helm of Fremantle, while challenging for a premiership, one of the major criticisms of Lyon remained an inability to introduce and develop new players.

Fremantle's skill level continues to haunt it, despite the obvious effort and desire.

While it may point to bigger issues to do with recruiting, it may not be that simple.

A former Fremantle staff member involved in recruitment at the club told the ABC Lyon never prioritised skills in the recruiting process.

Lyon has previously said he does not coach skill, he coaches effort.

What did Ratten coach?

[Scollop]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A quote from this article sums up the genuine concern and what will be what the media will watch closely:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/ ... n/11343242

In his first four years at the helm of Fremantle, while challenging for a premiership, one of the major criticisms of Lyon remained an inability to introduce and develop new players.

Fremantle's skill level continues to haunt it, despite the obvious effort and desire.

While it may point to bigger issues to do with recruiting, it may not be that simple.

A former Fremantle staff member involved in recruitment at the club told the ABC Lyon never prioritised skills in the recruiting process.

Lyon has previously said he does not coach skill, he coaches effort.

What did Ratten coach?

Coached us to a finals win in 2020

Was damned unlucky with Ryder and Long unavailable for the Semi and Carlisle heading home for his Missus and Nate Brown having already hung up the boots

Let’s see how the GOAT goes with virtually the same list

What I find hilarious in all the talk of the review announced in July is that the basic ‘review’ of our actual football matches was so fuggen glaringly missing.

Where was the breakdown of what went went wrong in some of our really close games? Where was the evidence that it was the senior coach who needed to be replaced?

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Lack of consistent effort across the board was our major failing under Ratts so if that improves we're already going to better. And skill comes with effort.

Having said that, it's true RTB overvalues his role players. Then again, Ratts routinely selected hacks while better players languished in the rezzies.

[B.M]

You recruit players with talent - that how 80 odd kids get drafted out of a thousand who are good enough to nominate - get selected

Ross Lyon is not there to teach a kid how to kick - he is there to teach them where to kick and how to best get a kick

DC helps with the skill and touch in his role as head of development

BTW
Eddy played 33 games in 5 seasons at StK

He was far from a regular!

[Teflon]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

Evidence? Names??
Lyon’s last years at Freo the club were in rebuild after falling 15 points short and kicking themselves out of a Premiership having a win rate the previous 4 years in the 70% range …it’s why Pavlich loves him
Lyon’s final year with a devastating depleted list they’d beaten multiple top 4 sides and finished the year with more wins than the previous season - despite the injuries
Did his rebuilding take too long?? That’s probably the criticism
Goddard is on record as stating people who say Lyon doesn’t develop his sides are full of Shyte
It suits a cliched media narrative from lazy thinkers
I’d argue at both Freo and St Kilda there are numerous examples of where Lyon developed players and took their games to the next level
Anyhoo all subjective and he’ll have to develop here to succeed so we’ll soon see.

[Scollop]

Lack of consistent effort across the board was our major failing under Ratts so if that improves we're already going to better. And skill comes with effort.

Having said that, it's true RTB overvalues his role players. Then again, Ratts routinely selected hacks while better players languished in the rezzies.

Was Ratten able to prevent Paddy Ryder from seeing his family? Simple question: Is Ratten directly responsible for Ryder missing games?

Is Ratten responsible for Zac Jones missing a chunk of games at the start of the year? Is Brett responsible for JB and RoMa missing games?

Was Ratten the one who smashed Jack Steele into the turf to pop his shoulder?

Remember…this was when we were pushing for a top 4 spot

Was Ratten responsible for DMac’s concussions and his ankle sprain?

Did Brett play Jade Gresham in the wrong position and possibly increase his risk of injury or did Brett not prepare Gresham well enough so that he risked doing his knee?

[Teflon]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A quote from this article sums up the genuine concern and what will be what the media will watch closely:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/ ... n/11343242

In his first four years at the helm of Fremantle, while challenging for a premiership, one of the major criticisms of Lyon remained an inability to introduce and develop new players.

Fremantle's skill level continues to haunt it, despite the obvious effort and desire.

While it may point to bigger issues to do with recruiting, it may not be that simple.

A former Fremantle staff member involved in recruitment at the club told the ABC Lyon never prioritised skills in the recruiting process.

Lyon has previously said he does not coach skill, he coaches effort.

What did Ratten coach?

Coached us to a finals win in 2020

Was damned unlucky with Ryder and Long unavailable for the Semi and Carlisle heading home for his Missus and Nate Brown having already hung up the boots

Let’s see how the GOAT goes with virtually the same list

What I find hilarious in all the talk of the review announced in July is that the basic ‘review’ of our actual football matches was so fuggen glaringly missing.

Where was the breakdown of what went went wrong in some of our really close games? Where was the evidence that it was the senior coach who needed to be replaced?

Ben Long was his smoking gun????
Geezus….there’s a problem
What IS interesting is NO ONE has come out in the media and said Saints shoulda kept Ratten - except you.
Think we all know why …
Think the club protected Brett’s reputation well…Abs reading what Tony74 and others have shared I’d suggest it’s pretty obvious footy wise Brett was cooked..,
No one’s going to put that in the public domain ffs

[Teflon]

Lack of consistent effort across the board was our major failing under Ratts so if that improves we're already going to better. And skill comes with effort.

Having said that, it's true RTB overvalues his role players. Then again, Ratts routinely selected hacks while better players languished in the rezzies.

Was Ratten able to prevent Paddy Ryder from seeing his family? Simple question: Is Ratten directly responsible for Ryder missing games?

Is Ratten responsible for Zac Jones missing a chunk of games at the start of the year? Is Brett responsible for JB and RoMa missing games?

Was Ratten the one who smashed Jack Steele into the turf to pop his shoulder?

Remember…this was when we were pushing for a top 4 spot

Was Ratten responsible for DMac’s concussions and his ankle sprain?

Did Brett play Jade Gresham in the wrong position and possibly increase his risk of injury or did Brett not prepare Gresham well enough so that he risked doing his knee?

We weren’t the worst club hit with injuries - stop with rubbish excuses
Was Rattens comedy game plan responsible for 1 goal in a half in Sydney??? What about the complete lack of effort AGAIN against a bottom 4 cellar dweller Essendon???
How about you describe how many truly 4 quarter performances the side delivered under Ratten?????
F’all is the answer
Been sliding since 2020

[Josh Battle]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

Evidence? Names??

Here you are sir Tef

Read away

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-20 ... 41610a21e2

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/too ... 52j4b.html

[Scollop]

What IS interesting is NO ONE has come out in the media and said Saints shoulda kept Ratten - except you.

That is just more steaming hot bs from you mate

[Teflon]

You recruit players with talent - that how 80 odd kids get drafted out of a thousand who are good enough to nominate - get selected

Ross Lyon is not there to teach a kid how to kick - he is there to teach them where to kick and how to best get a kick

DC helps with the skill and touch in his role as head of development

BTW
Eddy played 33 games in 5 seasons at StK

He was far from a regular!

I don’t agree entirely
I do think part of a coaches role is to help his side train to execute under pressure- great coaches on record from other codes (soccer etc) talk of really good coaches being able to pinpoint key skills that need to be executed under pressure and having the smarts to devise the training program so these things are routinely practiced under pressure
Is Ross a biomechanics expert? No agree not his job
But team plays/execution of these under pressure yes

[Teflon]

What IS interesting is NO ONE has come out in the media and said Saints shoulda kept Ratten - except you.

That is just more steaming hot bs from you mate

Well coming from the biggest steaming cow pat this site has to offer …I take that with a grain of salt
Did you want to run to report me to mods again for calling you a nasty poo-word or would like me to self nominate ??

[Scollop]

What IS interesting is NO ONE has come out in the media and said Saints shoulda kept Ratten - except you.

That is just more steaming hot bs from you mate

Well coming from the biggest steaming cow pat this site has to offer …I take that with a grain of salt
Did you want to run to report me to mods again for calling you a nasty poo-word or would like me to self nominate ??

Never reported you and I don’t report people for having an opinion regarding footy…no matter how biased or twisted or wrong I believe that opinion to be. You can PM Byron and he will vouch for me that I haven’t

I accept that we have a new coach, but I think it’s pointless trying to debate whether it’s the correct decision or not. It annoys me to tears that people think the same clowns who made countless mistakes over the last 6 years have somehow made the correct decision now. Who knows…I hope they have

It’s the decision the club has made and therefore they will push an agenda and there will be posters on here who tow the party line in the interests of providing positive morale going forward for everyone at the club…especially the players

The issue I have with you mate is that you make up crap to try and discredit Ratten …simply to justify the decision to appoint Lyon

[Teflon]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

Evidence? Names??

Here you are sir Tef

Read away

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-20 ... 41610a21e2

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/too ... 52j4b.html

Thanks Josh and as a Vortex apologist it’s Mr Teff to you son
Regardless not sure what those “hard hitting opinion pieces” prove
See I dig out Riewoldt articles saying he was hard done by in the end at Freo along with Goddard comments on his ability to develop players…and it proves what???
All those puff pieces do is describe why a coach who was 4 years into a rebuild was sacked - lack of results was bottom line
Was Lyon in charge of recruiting??
Did he bring no players on?? (we were originally addressing his so called lack of development capability as coach btw…not a running obituary on his being sacked ..)
Anyhoo keep hanging with Vort and you’ll learn a trick or two
Lay down with dogs though …

[Teflon]

What IS interesting is NO ONE has come out in the media and said Saints shoulda kept Ratten - except you.

That is just more steaming hot bs from you mate

Well coming from the biggest steaming cow pat this site has to offer …I take that with a grain of salt
Did you want to run to report me to mods again for calling you a nasty poo-word or would like me to self nominate ??

Never reported you and I don’t report people for having an opinion regarding footy…no matter how biased or twisted or wrong I believe that opinion to be.

I accept that we have a new coach, but I think it’s pointless trying to debate whether it’s the correct decision or not. It annoys me to tears that people think the same clowns who made countless mistakes over the last 6 years have somehow made the correct decision now. Who knows…I hope they have

It’s the decision the club has made and therefore they will push an agenda and there will be posters on here who tow the party line in the interests of providing positive morale going forward for everyone at the club…especially the players

The issue I have with you mate is that you make up crap to try and discredit Ratten …simply to justify the decision to appoint Lyon

Apologies it is true it was Vort and Saynta (serial offender) who reported me
Let’s cut to the chase
The issue I have with you mate is you fail to realise we are all making up crap to suit our agendas on this site and you think your “crap” is somehow different crap??
It’s ain’t
You’re constant bleating on about a review for a coach who I’d wager MAJORITY of fans on this site felt was just treading water borders on hysteria
He was cooked
He had 1 trick - move Membrey to Defence late in games
His forward line based on bombing and letting small forwards do their thing worked 1 year….then didn’t work anymore and he had zilch reply
His team selection was comical, clearly biased and has p?ssed players off
In short - he’s a nice bloke, good assistant NOT a senior AFL coach
That’s my crap - don’t like it?
Don’t read it.

[Teflon]

Lack of consistent effort across the board was our major failing under Ratts so if that improves we're already going to better. And skill comes with effort.

Having said that, it's true RTB overvalues his role players. Then again, Ratts routinely selected hacks while better players languished in the rezzies.

Correct
1 thing a coach needs to step up and own is his ability to have his side deliver effort week in week out
St Kilda were like a box of chocolates under Brett ..
Lyon (like him or not) has runs on the board at 2 clubs in delivering sustained effort