Similarities with Lyon teams

[Saintmike65]

It may not take too long for the players to learn Ross’s game plan if it’s an uptempo brand.
We played a bit like that in 2020 but the difference will be Ross will have some mechanisms in place for turnover safeguards.

[takeaway]

Riewoldt
Hayes Norm Smith medalist
Goddard
Dal Santo
Montagna
Milne
Ball
Gardiner
Gram 2nd in Norm Smith Voting
Steve Baker
Koschitzke
Dempster

And so many AAs in that list.

There is absolutely no similarities between our current list and that list, in fact it's embarrassing to even put them next to each other. And so much onfield leadership with that list , our current list has almost zero leaders, on and off the ground.

Speaking of leadership Lyon also had these 3 blokes at his disposal for his first 2 seasons for onfield leadership and to drive standards:

Robert Harvey
Andrew Thomson
Fraser Gehrig

Lyon has virtually none of these types of player resources this time around.

Spin will increase towards R1 but brace yourself for a stint around bottom 4 while Lyon builds his team and expect players to depart who can't cop the Lyon method which is a good thing but they have to be replaced so my point is we are in a rebuild and it will take time....hence 4 year contract.

Good coach....a really poor list.

Same problem before Bassett used Ratts as a scapegoat to protect his Presidency.

Good post

Can you imagine how confused the diehard cult followers will be at the end of 2023 if we actually finish 12th or lower. We had several of our best players out for extended periods in 2022. If Lyon suffers the same sort of luck as Ratts there is every likelihoohd we miss finals again

Would have been a difficult sell for the President and Lethlean to tell the supporter base that we want new leadership to drive standards and ONLY a different coach can do that AND we don't care if we finish bottom 8 for the next 2 years. Bassat hinted that he doesn't mind if we go backwards for a temporary period, but he didn't actually say that the goal was to rebuild the list

If any guys like Howard, King, Hill, Jones or Seb Ross or Membrey miss due to mental health or 'other' personal reasons and if we have the same sort of injuries to key players during 2023 like we had with Marshall, Billings, Clark, DMac (easily top ten in best and fairest before his injuries) PLUS Gresham and Steele ....lookout below........................................................

So what are you saying? If we finish 12th or lower/miss finals it will be because of injuries/absences, in other words the list? Nothing to do with RL's coaching?

Good to see you are coming around Scolops. Even though you said you would not lower your integrity and post much on the forum if RL got the gig.

[SaintPav]

Ross Lyon 2007 was a different coach to Ross Lyon 2012. Freo didn’t seem to have a problem transitioning to his coaching style and game plan in 2012. It was very seamless and impressive from memory. Probably involved a bit of tinkering compared to the changes in 2007 which involved a total overhaul.

GT and RL had very different styles and game plans. GT was very open and attacking with limited defensive structures in place. Hence, perhaps the difficulty adjustment.

Lyon’s game style and coaching also evolved while at the Saints. The 2007 game plan was different to the 2009 one. I think he will have learnt.

[skeptic]

This conversation has fallen a little into the extreme

It’s not a terrible stretch to say that this current team isn’t fit to lock the boot laces of the 09-10 model. That doesn’t make it bottom 4 either though.

I don’t think it’s a terribly big reach say that we’re somewhere comfortably between the two like our current position reflects.

What majorly jumps out however in contrast to previous Lyon teams he has coached is the lack of star power.

I don’t know how he’ll do it but the reality he needs to get some… needs to recruit at least 2-3 and elevate the performance of another few

[Vortex]

Yep get some stars should be simple now we've found the magician and his magic wand.

Bassett said 12 months ago we were entering premiership contention in 2022 and now he says he's taking us backwards.

Words of a president who's confident about the list being a contender or his admission we are in a rebuild?

The beauty of mixed messages from a president all over the shop is we get to choose what we believe.

Continue the discussion....

[Sanctorum]

It is hard to predict how the team will go next year but it's a long stretch to compare the current list to that of 2007-2011, they're poles apart.

I find it hard to explain last season's Jekyll and Hyde form - what were the factors that caused a 8-3 record midway and the opposite result in the 2nd stanza? There's no single or simple answer, a multitude of different things....and not necessarily mainly attributable to the coach as many claim. What is clear is that the post-season review led the board to conclude that there needed to be wholesale changes to off-field personnel, which brought in two hard-nuts in Walsh and Lyon and a totally new approach to how the team will be directed in 2023.

But I'm a lot more confident now than I was a month ago that under Geoff Walsh and Ross Lyon in 2023 the players will be much fitter and far more committed to play as a team, than they have done in the past 2 years.

If in fact the team's form in the first half of last season is validated as more indicative than that of the second half, it can be argued that the current list, even without a bevy of superstars , with a few new faces and players recovering from injury to come back in, and barring major injuries, we should definitely see the team consolidate a spot in the top 8.

[B.M]

What did everyone think of the list in the pre season of 2021?

[Vortex]

What did everyone think of the list in the pre season of 2021?

Not much to be honest.

I thought they were capable of scraping into the 8 I they had incredible luck with injury.

My assessment changed in the back half.

What I observed was a team lacking talent, depth, and most worrying of all, the attitude and mindset to be worthy of playing in an elite comp.

Injuries didn't help but here's the thing, it didn't take many injuries to knock us off our axis and we just had zero options at Sandy to get the axis realigned.

It won't surprise me if this list of cream puffs throw the towel in under the Lyon regime hence my fear we are in for a significant rebuild while Lyon attempts to find enough self entitled millennials capable of complying with his regime.

Max King will be the interesting watch, I tip he'll be the first to get dropped to make a statement like he did with Dal and Milne.

[B.M]

You really thought that in after 2020

When we went 11-6 and won a final?! And got Crouch in as a FA

Or are you allowing the last 2 years to effect your memory??


We are a 6-12 list

Variables being injury, suspension, coaching, development and draw

We had a very tough draw in both 2021/2022

[Vortex]

You really thought that in after 2020

When we went 11-6 and won a final?! And got Crouch in as a FA

Or are you allowing the last 2 years to effect your memory??


We are a 6-12 list

Variables being injury, suspension, coaching, development and draw

We had a very tough draw in both 2021/2022

Didn't rate the Covid Cup one little bit other than a great opportunity for the boys to bond and work on their sun tans. Comments from our President and CEO seem to confirm the Coivid cup was merely a bit of slap N tickle that probably suited our boys more than the rest of the comp. A sentiment shared by some of the people I knew who were in the Covid bubble.

I won't lie, after 2020 I thought we would keep trending north, HOWEVER I was on the record (do your search) as saying that to keep the momentum of the build going, we were going to need to continue our good fortune with recruiting over the coming 2 to 3 years, that was at the start of 2021, that didn't happen and here we are, oh and things like Hanners not playing made things even worse.

[skeptic]

So now it’s the president and CEO making comments about the Covid cup being a slap n tickle.
There’s pbly no point asking what they said.

Last time it was commonly acknowledged amongst the players and when I asked for one example of a comment a player made… you carried on like it was the Spanish Inquisition despite the fact that I never asked you to prove it or source it.

We keep hearing about these comments without ever hearing what the were or how you heard them.

[B.M]

Can’t control injuries

Recruiting?

Last season was good, can’t remember who we took post 2020? Maybe Allison, which is a bust. Also can’t remember why our first selection was only 26? Possibly Brad Hill??

Trading

We took some moneyball picks as back up players
A couple worked most didn’t but that had not real effect

The trade period just gone was abysmal

[skeptic]

I’m assuming this is one of the guys that didn’t give a damn… look at him having a nap during the game

Pathetic

[Yorkeys]

We were Ross's first senior gig. He has a large body of work behind him now. From excellent to poor results achieved. Current list will perceive him far differently from how that team so long ago might have. He has been hired to get this group to improve. Talk about finishing 12th or worse is nonsense. The list is ok and should be playing finals. Better than Dogs and Freo in raw talent but Ratts couldn't harness it. What's the saying, such comparisons are odious?

[Vortex]

So now it’s the president and CEO making comments about the Covid cup being a slap n tickle.
There’s pbly no point asking what they said.

Last time it was commonly acknowledged amongst the players and when I asked for one example of a comment a player made… you carried on like it was the Spanish Inquisition despite the fact that I never asked you to prove it or source it.

We keep hearing about these comments without ever hearing what the were or how you heard them.

Can someone help skeptic out, he always seems to be out of the loop, the comment was in relation to how we dipped so badly after the 2020 season...the comment was something along the lines ..."it probably suited our boys better"...make of that what you will.

I know it probably upsets you more than most because we know how you love your youngins, it's probably the mother in you, but the reality is you can't select 22 young kids and just let them have a "run of games"....sometimes you need more than youthful exuberance.

[skeptic]

No comments, only snark. What a surprise!

I’ll just content myself with the knowledge that someone said something sometime

[Vortex]

No comments, only snark. What a surprise!

I’ll just content myself with the knowledge that someone said something sometime

You started it with chiming into conversation with childish confrontation...what a surprise, pro tip, don't stick your nose out if you don't want it whacked. Otherwise roll up your sleeves and get into the muck.

[skeptic]

Yawn. What muck? You have no content for me to argue with. Still I am enjoying the evolution of the commenters… first it was players, now officials, one day it will be the premier and then the prime minister himself

[Killa]

IF you speculate forward and come up with the following representing the Club in the FINAL Minor Round game of 2023:-

Wilkie Howard Paton
Coffield Adams Battle
Hill Steele Wanganeen-Milera
Billings Heath Windhager
Membrey King Gresham
Marshall Crouch Sinclair
Clark Owens Higgins Pick 9

then that leaves:-

????? ?????? Connolly
Webster Cordy Highmore
Byrnes Ross Wood
Sharman Allison McKenzie
Peris Hayes Butler
Campbell Bytel Jones

And therein lies the problem, accentuated by the retirements of Carlisle, Ryder, Hanneberry and a loyal servant in Geary.

Plus Long, whose number the former Coach's children had on their backs.

Simply, the depth of our List has been a worry for a number of years hence going to the State Leagues.

And that lack of depth across the List saw injuries to Gresham, Coffield, Clark, Paton, Higgins and Steele really hurt.

Before we got to trying to cover Howard when he went down.

IF our List is as useless as some present, why would Lyon, Harvey and Hayes risk their reputations?

And why did the guy from Geelong come to St Kilda?

They surely all would have said "Thanks, but no"

[SaintPav]

I can’t see Adams in the starting line up. From all reports he is struggling.

Heath is probably another 12 months off.

[Vortex]

Yawn. What muck? You have no content for me to argue with. Still I am enjoying the evolution of the commenters… first it was players, now officials, one day it will be the premier and then the prime minister himself

The muck pigs wrestle in Wilbur.

[B.M]

Adams looks as far off AFL as you could get for a listed player

He and Allison are struggling at VFL level

[Scollop]

If I remember correctly our first year under Ross Lyon was pretty ordinary as players struggled to learn his game plan. I think the same might happen next year and with that the harbingers of doom who populate this forum, including you, will be in their glee as the knife all and sundry and hit us relentlessly with their own brand of poison.

Do you think Saints supporters are more interested in whether they get their opinion right or whether our club is successful?

Seriously…What a croc of manure.

As if I give a fk …or as if that’s important.

It isn’t!!

Maybe you think that history will repeat and Ross will have an average first season but we will become a force in years 2-3-4.

I hope I’m wrong and you’re right…and St Kilda wins multiple flags under Ross, but we are are all free to express our opinions

I think that this time around that Ross does not have a list anywhere near as mature or anywhere near as talented as the Freo list in 2012 or the Saints list in 2007. I think the cult followers and disciples will come round to understanding in a couple of years time that the messiah Lyon is just a mere mortal

Similar to some of the views expressed in this thread and in others, I reckon we’ll know very early on whether this change of coach will be a success or not for the club. I said as much 2 weeks ago…whatever results we get in 2023 will be the expectation again in 2024 and 2025….in my opinion

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 5#p1984795

[Sanctorum]

Max King will be the interesting watch, I tip he'll be the first to get dropped to make a statement like he did with Dal and Milne.

Big call Vortex, you made it quite clear in a number of posts that you don't rate Max King, and while I go along with the belief that he displays terrible body language at times, I'm 100% certain that he will be one of a number of players who will lift dramatically under Lyon and Walsh, you can put your money on it.

I'll make a big call too: Max is marquee-in-waiting and all he needs to sparkle is some serious whipping to get him to achieve that status and once he does he will be more successful as a key forward than the bloke who handed him his #12 jumper.

The best since Plugger!

[skeptic]

I think that this time around that Ross does not have a list anywhere near as mature or anywhere near as talented as the Freo list in 2012 or the Saints list in 2007. I think the cult followers and disciples will come round to understanding in a couple of years time that the messiah Lyon is just a mere mortal

I agree to a point… what I think however is that surely Lyon recognises this too and would be concocting a plan to address this.

Being one of the bigger critics of the original version… don’t know if I back him to do it but I’m really interested in watching the swing.

My bet is that he does everything in his power to get us into the 8 and sell us as an exciting up and comer club with a platform to then pitch for some big trades/FAs to get elite talent in. Reality is that without at least some class injection, even in a weaker comp we don’t have the goods.

That’s why I reckon we’ll see a ferocious preseason

The intrigue is in what he’s learned and how he’ll adapt… or can he even. Either way… I can’t imagine he thinks we’re ready to contend. Should at least be interesting.