Ross Lyon and development of youth. The evidence mounts with new data.

[Templar]

Heaven knows how all this will affect Max King, Windhager, Owens, Nasiah, and co.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/859103/-i-o ... saints-gig

[Killa]

There is no doubt that the recruitment of lesser players from lesser Clubs did us no favors at the time and subsequent to Lyon's last term as Coach.

So the likes of Gardiner (from Geelong), Birss, Peake et al (some names escape me, but there were a few).

And these players played at the expense of giving young, Drafted players the opportunity to develop and gain experience with the Class which was on our List at that time.

The only 2 who subsequently came thru were Stevens and Armitage (others may wish to correct me if there are others).

There were good recruiting decisions, aka Micheal Gardiner and King which gave us a rucking resource when we had none prior and the likes of Schneider and Dempster, 2 good foot soldiers from Sydney and Gram - plus there was Gwilt from the suburban competition.

Ball was shown the door because he could not spread, had lost his pace and fumbled under pressure inside (due to mis-management of OP under Thomas that mis-management also impacting the likes of Maguire, X Clarke and others).

We also played the likes of Eddy, McQualter, Geary, Dawson and others as "role" players, so not contributors to transition.

Tough decisions were made on Milne and Dal Santo, both dropped because of lack of contribution to the game plan (so pressure, which is still the major weapon of contending sides).

But generally, the reliance was on our upper echelon, of whom we had our fair share.

And twice we very nearly got there.

So that is a brief summary of Lyon Mark 1, what he inherited and what he achieved (noting we only had one really good season, in 2007)

The question is has this assessment been put to Lyon?

And what is his response?

Noting we currently have on our List Adams, Wanganeen-Milera, Heath, Windhager, King, Owens, Connolly, Byrnes, Sharman, Allison, Peris, Bytel and those to be Drafted over coming weeks, starting with Pick 9.

And that is before you list emerging players such as Clark, Coffield, Paton and Battle, all now past 50 games of experience and expected to deliver.

So it is a different List to the one Lyon inherited from Thomas.

Which no doubt has been discussed at length.

And who can Lyon now attract, being upper echelon?

Not foot soldiers, because the demographic of our List says we are no place for foot soldiers.

They are a waste of space.

[Yorkeys]

Lachie Neale? Might now not feel so anti Ross having worked with Fagin. But maybe not.

[CURLY]

Show me a premiership team without a so called role player.

Geelong this season had Dalhaus Ceglar Rohan recruited as role role players



Love how people still bag Lyon for playing Dawson and McQualter in 09 10 both more than held there own.

[skeptic]

Show me a premiership team without a so called role player.

Geelong this season had Dalhaus Ceglar Rohan recruited as role role players



Love how people still bag Lyon for playing Dawson and McQualter in 09 10 both more than held there own.

In 2010 McQualter was terrible… played a few good games but was well down on his 09 form which was pretty good.

Dawson was fine both years (if not better)

[D.B.Cooper]

Whether you love or despise Ross he is no fool.

Do you expect he will be the same coach as 2010 or will have evolved and studied and analyzed his mistakes?

I think the next version of Ross will still be the same hard arse and demanding of commitment but is likely to have the team play a more attacking brand of footy and to be more youth focused than his previous rein.

[Teflon]

So let’s let Andrew Brayshaw (who received a recent call from Max King) put all the BS that Ross Lyon can’t develop players to bed.


Saints star reaches out to Docker over Lyon’s impending appointment

With Ross Lyon’s appointment to St Kilda expected to be made official in the coming days, Max King has already picked up the phone to find out more about the ex-Fremantle coach.
Lyon will begin his third stint as an AFL senior coach when he joins the Saints, following time previously at St Kilda from 2007-2011 and the Dockers from 2012-2019.
Fremantle young star Andrew Brayshaw revealed that former Haileybury teammate and close friend King called to “get a feel of what Ross is like”, per the The West Australian.
Brayshaw spent the first two years of his career under Lyon before developing into a genuine star of the competition with Justin Longmuir as his mentor and acknowledged his former coach’s hard edge as an important trait.
“I’m very happy for him. I had a feeling he’d be back at some point,” Brayshaw stated.
“My first couple of years at the club were under Ross and I absolutely loved it.
“There were some of the all-time sprays when I was young.
“But playing my first game under him, some of the chats I had with him when I was finding my way in the AFL… he put me on the right path. I think I owe a lot of my football success to him.”
He said further: “When I first came to the club, I didn’t really know what being a professional footballer meant.
“He pushes his players every day to be the best versions of themselves. Whether that’s training, on the track, in the gym or being focused in meetings, he’s big on the off-field stuff as well.
“He’s the sort of coach who will get the best out of you no matter what.”
It follows a similar acknowledgement by former Docker Garrick Ibbotson.
Lyon previously played key roles in developing Justin Koschitzke and Nick Riewoldt, and now seems set to get the chance to do the same with one of the best young stars in the game in King.
In terms of advice for King, Brayshaw added: “Put your head down and work really hard. He values hard work.”
King enjoyed his best season yet in his fourth-year at the top level in 2022, booting 52 goals and having the second most shots on goal of any player to not play finals.

[skeptic]

One thing about RL…

He has always unequivocally favoured the players that work the hardest. It’s why Lenny, Roo and Goddard were the poster children… that and incredible talent.

The challenge is when you have an obviously talented youngster that isn’t motivated to do the work…

[bobmurray]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

[Teflon]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

Geezus Bob
Listen to the collective (past saints and Freo players) and keep an open mind ffs
Let’s not just accept the endless media narrative we are fed like sheep and not be afraid to form an objective view when evidence is presented
Brayshaw doesn’t have to say ,Serong is another Lyon brought on
Robert Eddy (who Lyon eventually culled) also came out this week acknowledging he has the ability to get the best out of his players.
See this the thing we all forget …
Lyons 09/10 list was not as deep as what Thomas had - he didn’t have Harvey, Hudgton, Gehrig, Hamill, Powell, Peckett et al in their prime
His top end was great no doubt - the bottom end was moneyball types ……and he dragged the best from them
I see our list right now as lacking stars …we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

[saintsRrising]

.

The challenge is when you have an obviously talented youngster that isn’t motivated to do the work…

You mean like Clark under Ratts?

[bobmurray]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

Geezus Bob
Listen to the collective (past saints and Freo players) and keep an open mind ffs
Let’s not just accept the endless media narrative we are fed like sheep and not be afraid to form an objective view when evidence is presented
Brayshaw doesn’t have to say ,Serong is another Lyon brought on
Robert Eddy (who Lyon eventually culled) also came out this week acknowledging he has the ability to get the best out of his players.
See this the thing we all forget …
Lyons 09/10 list was not as deep as what Thomas had - he didn’t have Harvey, Hudgton, Gehrig, Hamill, Powell, Peckett et al in their prime
His top end was great no doubt - the bottom end was moneyball types ……and he dragged the best from them
I see our list right now as lacking stars …we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

Let's ignore how Ross left both the Saints and Freo lists when he moved on, regardless if it was his choice, or not. Both clubs are still in recovery. Ross has his positives for sure but his negatives are what others are left with.

[Killa]

We came as close as we did in 2007 and the draw in 2008

You could put that our bottom 6 cost us - because our top end was very good

In terms of “role players”, every player has a role to play defending when necessary and providing link and offence when that opportunity is there

What I can tell you is that when Brett came to St Kilda (to join his good mate Richardson) he identified there was no junior development focus - and he moved to correct this

He further identified the lack of analytics - and bought in that resource

In discussions you may identify the obvious, where opportunity was lost

But the response was not as expected

The response would identify usage 2 or 3 plays prior and that the obvious was the known outcome given the prior ignoring of pattern

And examples would be shown

The frustrations of the Coaching team and the analysts were what they were - hair being torn out

So it was back to the drawing board - to educate how and why

Rattan made a big difference to St Kilda - and a positive difference

It is now with Lyon to add to this

Coaching is always evolving with a point of difference which will deliver result the never ending challenge

[Teflon]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

Geezus Bob
Listen to the collective (past saints and Freo players) and keep an open mind ffs
Let’s not just accept the endless media narrative we are fed like sheep and not be afraid to form an objective view when evidence is presented
Brayshaw doesn’t have to say ,Serong is another Lyon brought on
Robert Eddy (who Lyon eventually culled) also came out this week acknowledging he has the ability to get the best out of his players.
See this the thing we all forget …
Lyons 09/10 list was not as deep as what Thomas had - he didn’t have Harvey, Hudgton, Gehrig, Hamill, Powell, Peckett et al in their prime
His top end was great no doubt - the bottom end was moneyball types ……and he dragged the best from them
I see our list right now as lacking stars …we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

Let's ignore how Ross left both the Saints and Freo lists when he moved on, regardless if it was his choice, or not. Both clubs are still in recovery. Ross has his positives for sure but his negatives are what others are left with.

Let’s ignore facts shall we??
09/10 - Saints were cooked by 11 Riewoldt and players said it themselves
Recruiting during that period was poor - that’s not all Lyons fault just like under Ratten was Gags primary role not Rattens ….the clubs list didn’t have a lot coming through but it had also been up for sone time with crap recruiting and development resources in place

Freo - he took an ok list imo to the pinnacle
Whilst his last few years werent great he had sides plagued by injury - missing key players like often
He actually brought Brayshaw and Serong and others through (again feel free to ignore Brayshaw comments how Lyon set his football career on the right path)
Lyons not perfect or blameless but gee he cops it from lazy Herald Sun opinions from people hell bent on making him pay for how he left
St Kilda were also ran incompetently during this period….often overlooked

[bobmurray]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

Geezus Bob
Listen to the collective (past saints and Freo players) and keep an open mind ffs
Let’s not just accept the endless media narrative we are fed like sheep and not be afraid to form an objective view when evidence is presented
Brayshaw doesn’t have to say ,Serong is another Lyon brought on
Robert Eddy (who Lyon eventually culled) also came out this week acknowledging he has the ability to get the best out of his players.
See this the thing we all forget …
Lyons 09/10 list was not as deep as what Thomas had - he didn’t have Harvey, Hudgton, Gehrig, Hamill, Powell, Peckett et al in their prime
His top end was great no doubt - the bottom end was moneyball types ……and he dragged the best from them
I see our list right now as lacking stars …we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

Let's ignore how Ross left both the Saints and Freo lists when he moved on, regardless if it was his choice, or not. Both clubs are still in recovery. Ross has his positives for sure but his negatives are what others are left with.

Let’s ignore facts shall we??
09/10 - Saints were cooked by 11 Riewoldt and players said it themselves
Recruiting during that period was poor - that’s not all Lyons fault just like under Ratten was Gags primary role not Rattens ….the clubs list didn’t have a lot coming through but it had also been up for sone time with crap recruiting and development resources in place

Freo - he took an ok list imo to the pinnacle
Whilst his last few years werent great he had sides plagued by injury - missing key players like often
He actually brought Brayshaw and Serong and others through (again feel free to ignore Brayshaw comments how Lyon set his football career on the right path)
Lyons not perfect or blameless but gee he cops it from lazy Herald Sun opinions from people hell bent on making him pay for how he left
St Kilda were also ran incompetently during this period….often overlooked

Let's see how "chubby" Lyon goes the 2nd time around, let's hope he doesn't stack the list with role players that aren't quite up to it, let's hope the club has told him development is as important as winning, or as near as.

[Teflon]

Get on board Bob and grab yourself a “chubby” along the way!!

[Scollop]

We came as close as we did in 2007 and the draw in 2008

You lost 2 years somewhere...it's 2009 and 2010 that you meant - right?

[Scollop]

…we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

We know you’re excited Teffers….and fast running out of tissues and fresh undies…

But as far as the names you just mentioned - Billings had his best year and most consistent year in 2019. That was Ratts first year at St Kilda as an assistant and everyone knew he was taking over as senior coach half way through that year.

Is it a coincidence? Maybe…but what about the other guys - Coffield had his best year when Ratts started officially in 2020. Nick finished 5th in the best and fairest.

Clark earnt a top 10 spot in the Trevor Barker that year and was shaping up to have an even better year in 2021 before he had his face rearranged by the Adelaide c*** Mckay. Zak Jones also top ten and so was Dougal and Butler. It’s Brett’s fault that Ratten recruited Higgins and Butler has had to change his role

DMac has played his best and most consistent footy under Ratten and what about this bloke Mason Wood you speak about… Been on an AFL list now for 9 years…he’s never played as many senior games in a season as he just did with St Kilda in 2022 under Brett Ratten. Geezus that’s a lot of fkn coincidences!

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players ... _Wood.html

We acknowledge that your messiah is coming and we know you worship the Sphinx phallus and that Ross has a sexy walk and you love hearing every cliche and every quirky saying of his, but spare us the bulldust…please

Any way…it’s Brett’s fault that Gresham did his achilles last year and did his meniscus this year….

And It’s Brett’s fault that Coffield did his acl. It’s Brett’s fault that Zac Jones had his issues and was out this year.

Also Brett’s fault Paddy had to miss to see his family, and it was Brett’s fault that Billings and RoMa were injured for periods last year and this year and it’s Brett’s fault that DMac was injured also.

Another bloke who had a breakout year in 2020 when Ratts arrived was Ben Paton. I’m glad that Bassat and Lethlean realise it was Brett’s fault that Ben broke his leg. It is Brett who was our bad luck charm and now that he’s gone we might finally win a flag

[Teflon]

…we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

We know you’re excited Teffers….and fast running out of tissues and fresh undies…

But as far as the names you just mentioned - Billings had his best year and most consistent year in 2019. That was Ratts first year at St Kilda as an assistant and everyone knew he was taking over as senior coach half way through that year.

Is it a coincidence? Maybe…but what about the other guys - Coffield had his best year when Ratts started officially in 2020. Nick finished 5th in the best and fairest.

Clark earnt a top 10 spot in the Trevor Barker that year and was shaping up to have an even better year in 2021 before he had his face rearranged by the Adelaide c*** Mckay. Zak Jones also top ten and so was Dougal and Butler. It’s Brett’s fault that Ratten recruited Higgins and Butler has had to change his role

DMac has played his best and most consistent footy under Ratten and what about this bloke Mason Wood you speak about… Been on an AFL list now for 9 years…he’s never played as many senior games in a season as he just did with St Kilda in 2022 under Brett Ratten. Geezus that’s a lot of fkn coincidences!

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players ... _Wood.html

We acknowledge that your messiah is coming and we know you worship the Sphinx phallus and that Ross has a sexy walk and you love hearing every cliche and every quirky saying of his, but spare us the bulldust…please

Any way…it’s Brett’s fault that Gresham did his achilles last year and did his meniscus this year….

And It’s Brett’s fault that Coffield did his acl. It’s Brett’s fault that Zac Jones had his issues and was out this year.

Also Brett’s fault Paddy had to miss to see his family, and it was Brett’s fault that Billings and RoMa were injured for periods last year and this year and it’s Brett’s fault that DMac was injured also.

Another bloke who had a breakout year in 2020 when Ratts arrived was Ben Paton. I’m glad that Bassat and Lethlean realise it was Brett’s fault that Ben broke his leg. It is Brett who was our bad luck charm and now that he’s gone we might finally win a flag

Least I’ve an excuse for running out of tissues and fresh undies….what’s yours ??? I suspect you e been worshiping your own phallus for sometime..
No matter …he is coming….he isn’t alone….along with him comes a system and a game plan that doesn’t leave the players going WTF????
Oh and an awful lot of those “gee Teffers he had his best year” BS we’re some time ago now ….
What about the back half of this year just gone where we were 3-8 and bottom 4 in all key stats with a clueless coach who just kept blaming players saying “just handball to Hilly” ?????? Slim pickings there..
Spare us your Ross Lyon hatred (I see your little chubby rubbing buddy likes your stuff…might be something in that for you two.. )
Thank **** most grown up supporters on here get it!!

[Scollop]

You’ve got it wrong again Teffers.

The supporters are gunna ‘get it’ alright! The whole club is gunna ‘get it’! It’s gunna hurt and it’s not going to be verry niiiice

We’re copping it up the ah-noose while Teffers verrryy excite

[Finna]

Time to move on from the past...he's clearly the best available and loves the club. Who else would you rather have in charge now...and why?

[Finna]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

Geezus Bob
Listen to the collective (past saints and Freo players) and keep an open mind ffs
Let’s not just accept the endless media narrative we are fed like sheep and not be afraid to form an objective view when evidence is presented
Brayshaw doesn’t have to say ,Serong is another Lyon brought on
Robert Eddy (who Lyon eventually culled) also came out this week acknowledging he has the ability to get the best out of his players.
See this the thing we all forget …
Lyons 09/10 list was not as deep as what Thomas had - he didn’t have Harvey, Hudgton, Gehrig, Hamill, Powell, Peckett et al in their prime
His top end was great no doubt - the bottom end was moneyball types ……and he dragged the best from them
I see our list right now as lacking stars …we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

Let's ignore how Ross left both the Saints and Freo lists when he moved on, regardless if it was his choice, or not. Both clubs are still in recovery. Ross has his positives for sure but his negatives are what others are left with.

Let’s ignore facts shall we??
09/10 - Saints were cooked by 11 Riewoldt and players said it themselves
Recruiting during that period was poor - that’s not all Lyons fault just like under Ratten was Gags primary role not Rattens ….the clubs list didn’t have a lot coming through but it had also been up for sone time with crap recruiting and development resources in place

Freo - he took an ok list imo to the pinnacle
Whilst his last few years werent great he had sides plagued by injury - missing key players like often
He actually brought Brayshaw and Serong and others through (again feel free to ignore Brayshaw comments how Lyon set his football career on the right path)
Lyons not perfect or blameless but gee he cops it from lazy Herald Sun opinions from people hell bent on making him pay for how he left
St Kilda were also ran incompetently during this period….often overlooked

Exactly. 2011 team was cooked and I would argue the real damage was done to that list when watters started disrespecting them and pelican started getting rid of them

[Teflon]

You’ve got it wrong again Teffers.

The supporters are gunna ‘get it’ alright! The whole club is gunna ‘get it’! It’s gunna hurt and it’s not going to be verry niiiice

We’re copping it up the ah-noose while Teffers verrryy excite

I’m happy to be as excited as Roo, Joey, BJ, Dal, Kosi, Milne, Blakey etc cause these guys know what’s what
As opposed to Trollop who deals in “IMO”
In Ross we trust
See you at the GF.

[Teflon]

Let's not try and rewrite history based on a kid from Fremantle's view on Ross.

Geezus Bob
Listen to the collective (past saints and Freo players) and keep an open mind ffs
Let’s not just accept the endless media narrative we are fed like sheep and not be afraid to form an objective view when evidence is presented
Brayshaw doesn’t have to say ,Serong is another Lyon brought on
Robert Eddy (who Lyon eventually culled) also came out this week acknowledging he has the ability to get the best out of his players.
See this the thing we all forget …
Lyons 09/10 list was not as deep as what Thomas had - he didn’t have Harvey, Hudgton, Gehrig, Hamill, Powell, Peckett et al in their prime
His top end was great no doubt - the bottom end was moneyball types ……and he dragged the best from them
I see our list right now as lacking stars …we need a coach who can lift the DMacs, Woods, Billings, Clarke, Coffield etc THATS where our lift will come from and we’ve got the guy to put in place standards to get that
Anyway, strap in and get a bit of excitement round you old boy..

Let's ignore how Ross left both the Saints and Freo lists when he moved on, regardless if it was his choice, or not. Both clubs are still in recovery. Ross has his positives for sure but his negatives are what others are left with.

Let’s ignore facts shall we??
09/10 - Saints were cooked by 11 Riewoldt and players said it themselves
Recruiting during that period was poor - that’s not all Lyons fault just like under Ratten was Gags primary role not Rattens ….the clubs list didn’t have a lot coming through but it had also been up for sone time with crap recruiting and development resources in place

Freo - he took an ok list imo to the pinnacle
Whilst his last few years werent great he had sides plagued by injury - missing key players like often
He actually brought Brayshaw and Serong and others through (again feel free to ignore Brayshaw comments how Lyon set his football career on the right path)
Lyons not perfect or blameless but gee he cops it from lazy Herald Sun opinions from people hell bent on making him pay for how he left
St Kilda were also ran incompetently during this period….often overlooked

Exactly. 2011 team was cooked and I would argue the real damage was done to that list when watters started disrespecting them and pelican started getting rid of them

Correct and we know what Lyon thought of Pelican ..

[Sanctorum]

Let's see how "chubby" Lyon goes the 2nd time around, let's hope he doesn't stack the list with role players that aren't quite up to it, let's hope the club has told him development is as important as winning, or as near as.

Just to reassure you Bob, and like me you've been on this journey for a long time, I despised Ross Lyon as much as anyone, I've given my reasons for this on other threads.

But I totally agree that the club had to grasp the nettle and make the brutal decision that Brett Ratten, who I always considered a reasonably good coach, lacked all of the criteria to lead the team to a GF. When that was clarified as the reasons for Ratten's dismissal last week I realised that Ross Lyon does indeed have a strong record lifting teams to the top of the ladder, and so had to swallow all of my grievances and support his Second Coming, if that is decided.

The reason why I believe Ross Lyon will be a much better coach this time is that he will have looked back on his journey and make any necessary adjustments. The final issue for my positive rationale is that Ross Lyon will have to answer to Geoff Walsh, the new Football Supremo, which means the off-field setup will be far more collegial, with everyone united to strive for success!