Ross Lyon put saints back ten years by not playing youth

[Teflon]

OP way way off the mark.

Lyon was brought in with the mission to get the THEN list into Grand Finals. This he did better than any other St Kilda Coach apart from Jeans.

He did what he was brought in to do, and was a bee's dick off winning two flags. Hawkins kicks a point and was given a goal, and a toe poke goes straight to Ableet for another.

Milne 9 times out of 10 would have the ball bounce so that he would gather and goal.

We were also competitive in those two grand finals.



What Lyon was not brought in to do was to build and develop a team in the longterm. So the OP is way way off the mark.


Richo and Tatts both given the job to be nice blokes and build team = complete failures.


Of the coaches currently available, Lyon is head and shoulders the best AVAILABLE option.



Then add in that we have finally pissed of the "admin types" in Lethlean and Bains who were allow to f*** over our football department by being the men in charge. We now have a true football person in charge in Walsh.

Just need to get rid of Gags now and geta true List Manager..hopefully Cripps.

Lyon to coach, Cripps to build and improve the list, and Walso to make sure that both Lyon and Cripps can achieve their best outcomes.




We are finally acting like a football club should again. About b****y time.

Great post - we’ll said.

[realdeal]

I was fuming when Lyon left us, however over the years it's become obvious that the club stuffed the situation up just as much as he ditched us.

Lyon is tough and ruthless, precisely what we've been missing.

If his name wasn't Ross Lyon im sure many more supporters would be all for it.

In saying that, i certainly hope the board etc have quizzed him on the style of play he'll be implementing as it has to be much more attacking and positive than previously, with a solid defensive structure of course.

[B.M]

I don’t care what the game plan is, as long as it delivers Ws

We win 30 to 20

I’m happy as a pig in s***

We lose 125 to 130

I’m ropable


IMO
The only thing you need to be with a GP is ahead of the game, a trendsetter
And your style MUST suit the playing list

[Brunswicksainter]

Saying Ross Lyon doesn’t play youth is just blatantly untrue. He didn’t play youth for us in the golden years because all our young players outside of jack Steven sucked. He blooded a ton of kids at freo.

[B.M]

Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Jamie Cripps and David Armitage went on to have OK careers

They couldn’t have been too bad?!

[Brunswicksainter]

Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Jamie Cripps and David Armitage went on to have OK careers

They couldn’t have been too bad?!

Only meh players and fringe types with exception of perhaps Cripps

[Brunswicksainter]

Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Jamie Cripps and David Armitage went on to have OK careers

They couldn’t have been too bad?!

Only meh players and fringe types with exception of perhaps Cripps

Do also recall all of those players playing in the Lyon years. Lynch in particular was extremely ordinary.

[ausfatcat]

Do also recall all of those players playing in the Lyon years. Lynch in particular was extremely ordinary.

Played 6 games for the saints, was really good at Adelaide thou injury prone

[St Lenny]

Pelchen made the decisions to trade out existing players for picks

Elshaug was responsible for those picks

Both fkd the club

In Lyon's time, John Beveridge and Tony Elshaug did the job together. Pelchen arrived in 2011. So him and Lyin didn't have long together, though they didn't get on. Reminder that Pelchen had 14 very successful years at Hawthorn and it was Jean's wish that he go to St Kilda. Pelchen was responsible for getting rid of a lot of players that people say we should not have got rid of. Though they weren't playing well for us at the time. He never got to complete the strategy he had in place as there was a review and it was decided he should go.

St Kilda were always going to get McCartin, that was told to me personally by Alan Richardson.

[The Fireman]

I reckon Saints supporters would excell in gymnastics .. especially the back flip

[takeaway]

Pelchen made the decisions to trade out existing players for picks

Elshaug was responsible for those picks

Both fkd the club

In Lyon's time, John Beveridge and Tony Elshaug did the job together. Pelchen arrived in 2011. So him and Lyin didn't have long together, though they didn't get on. Reminder that Pelchen had 14 very successful years at Hawthorn and it was Jean's wish that he go to St Kilda. Pelchen was responsible for getting rid of a lot of players that people say we should not have got rid of. Though they weren't playing well for us at the time. He never got to complete the strategy he had in place as there was a review and it was decided he should go.

St Kilda were always going to get McCartin, that was told to me personally by Alan Richardson.

John Peake was Recruiting Manager during Lyon's time wasn't he? Elshaug was there, but more a coaching role, took over recruitment after Peake left. (2011?)
Peake didn't have many high draft picks as Saints were up the ladder a bit, but his recruiting results were worse the Elshaugs.

[saynta]

I can't believe people calling for Ross Lyons reinstatement at the Saints.

People have short memory's, don't get me wrong I think he is a great coach but only if you have a team near contenting or a contender he does not develop players.

The team he had in 2009 comprised a lot of early draft picks unlike this team that does not have many first rounders so we need a coach who can develop the group I don't think Ross is the man who can do that.

While Ross was coach he played the experienced players a core group of 23,25, players the only time he didn't was when one of them was injured and as soon as they were ready he put them back in and dropped the young guys didn't matter how they played they were out.

This went on till he left when we lost 4 guys 22-26 due to no games, and some went on to do really well at other clubs also lost our full back in Zach Dawson who went to Fremantle with Ross.

We didn't recruited anyone expect Lovett from Essendon pick 16 who was trouble and we cut before he played a game.

He played Luke ball 12m in last quarter of 2009 GF he leaves club for what pick Nothing to Collingwood they offered pick 22 plus player we reject it and he walks to the draft and is picked up by Collingwood.

After Ross left it took us years to rebuild our list and we are getting there only now.

The only way I would be happy to have Ross Lyon back is if he concentrated on the Coaching and Training nothing else.

Also in team selection is a group decision not just his so we have integrity in the process.

And we make sure he sticks to coaching nothing else so the same situation does not arise and the club is worse off.

Well said

[The G Train Legacy]

Our current List actually bats deeper, but is light on the top end talent, particularly in the middle.

One thing that has barely been touched on, is the fact that Rossy will give us some appeal as a destination Club. I bet we'll land a big fish or two next year. And I'm sure Lyon will push some of our existing players up a level or two.

[whiskers3614]

Our current List actually bats deeper, but is light on the top end talent, particularly in the middle.

One thing that has barely been touched on, is the fact that Rossy will give us some appeal as a destination Club. I bet we'll land a big fish or two next year. And I'm sure Lyon will push some of our existing players up a level or two.

Even though I strongly disagree on many of your points I really applaud and appreciate your reasoned and unemotional posts.
Wish more of us could agree to disagree without the need for personal attacks!

[Sparks]

John Peake was Recruiting Manager during Lyon's time wasn't he? Elshaug was there, but more a coaching role, took over recruitment after Peake left. (2011?)
Peake didn't have many high draft picks as Saints were up the ladder a bit, but his recruiting results were worse the Elshaugs.
[/quote]

Well, you are right Peake was Recruiting Manager from 2007 to 2010.
Didn’t have high picks is correct but he did have one top ten.
Ben McEvoy.
His record was the worst? Well, let’s look at who he took over those four years and their achievements.
The players are McEvoy, Steven, Lynch, Stanley, Hutchings and Cripps.
So by my count that’s four premiership players.
The other, Lynch played over a 150 games and played in a grand final and the non premiership player is Steven who was a 4 time best and fairest.
Gee, I know supporters want perfection but I can’t agree with your assessment.
To me, that record is not bad.

[Teflon]

Our current List actually bats deeper, but is light on the top end talent, particularly in the middle.

One thing that has barely been touched on, is the fact that Rossy will give us some appeal as a destination Club. I bet we'll land a big fish or two next year. And I'm sure Lyon will push some of our existing players up a level or two.

Even though I strongly disagree on many of your points I really applaud and appreciate your reasoned and unemotional posts.
Wish more of us could agree to disagree without the need for personal attacks!

P!ss off! (Kidding)
Good post really informative

[takeaway]

John Peake was Recruiting Manager during Lyon's time wasn't he? Elshaug was there, but more a coaching role, took over recruitment after Peake left. (2011?)
Peake didn't have many high draft picks as Saints were up the ladder a bit, but his recruiting results were worse the Elshaugs.

Well, you are right Peake was Recruiting Manager from 2007 to 2010.
Didn’t have high picks is correct but he did have one top ten.
Ben McEvoy.
His record was the worst? Well, let’s look at who he took over those four years and their achievements.
The players are McEvoy, Steven, Lynch, Stanley, Hutchings and Cripps.
So by my count that’s four premiership players.
The other, Lynch played over a 150 games and played in a grand final and the non premiership player is Steven who was a 4 time best and fairest.
Gee, I know supporters want perfection but I can’t agree with your assessment.
To me, that record is not bad.
[/quote]

You've somehow switched your quotes but ....

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

[Sparks]

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

[takeaway]

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

Not harsh on Peake, they are the figures, 11 out of 47 for Peake compared to 27 out of 60 for Elshaug. The limitation of course is that only measures players who were good enough to play 50 plus games. Elshaugh had better results in that regard.

As for high picks, Elshaugh had more and of course missed Petracca as No.1. However, his team did bring in some handy players, most better than McEvoy, Lynch & Cripps, in Steele, Marshall, Sinclair, Membrey, etc.

You would have to list all the players recruited in each period to assess fairly, and both weren't great recruiting periods, but I reckon Elshaugh's results are better. List them out, see what you think.

[SydneySainter]

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

Not harsh on Peake, they are the figures, 11 out of 47 for Peake compared to 27 out of 60 for Elshaug. The limitation of course is that only measures players who were good enough to play 50 plus games. Elshaugh had better results in that regard.

As for high picks, Elshaugh had more and of course missed Petracca as No.1. However, his team did bring in some handy players, most better than McEvoy, Lynch & Cripps, in Steele, Marshall, Sinclair, Membrey, etc.

You would have to list all the players recruited in each period to assess fairly, and both weren't great recruiting periods, but I reckon Elshaugh's results are better. List them out, see what you think.

Steele was a trade and Membrey was a delisted free agent.

Marshall has potential and Sinclair was a terrific rookie get. In fact, isn’t Sinclair the only AA the Saints have had since Nick Riewoldt?

So two somewhat success picks and we should be tooting his horn. My god we embrace mediocrity.

How are Paddy and Billings going?

[Scollop]

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

Not harsh on Peake, they are the figures, 11 out of 47 for Peake compared to 27 out of 60 for Elshaug. The limitation of course is that only measures players who were good enough to play 50 plus games. Elshaugh had better results in that regard.

As for high picks, Elshaugh had more and of course missed Petracca as No.1. However, his team did bring in some handy players, most better than McEvoy, Lynch & Cripps, in Steele, Marshall, Sinclair, Membrey, etc.

You would have to list all the players recruited in each period to assess fairly, and both weren't great recruiting periods, but I reckon Elshaugh's results are better. List them out, see what you think.

One bloke fishing in a mud hole created by puddles and excess storm water run off says to the other bloke who is fishing in a trout farm full of trout ...gee you must be a good fisherman - you've caught more fish than me!!

Of course Elshaugh is going to have a better strike rate when we were down the bottom end of the ladder or finishing 9th and 10th for the period under Watters and Richo. Bevo was recruiting when we were challenging in prelims and in Grand Finals

[Scollop]

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

You won't win trying to argue with apologists

[takeaway]

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

Not harsh on Peake, they are the figures, 11 out of 47 for Peake compared to 27 out of 60 for Elshaug. The limitation of course is that only measures players who were good enough to play 50 plus games. Elshaugh had better results in that regard.

As for high picks, Elshaugh had more and of course missed Petracca as No.1. However, his team did bring in some handy players, most better than McEvoy, Lynch & Cripps, in Steele, Marshall, Sinclair, Membrey, etc.

You would have to list all the players recruited in each period to assess fairly, and both weren't great recruiting periods, but I reckon Elshaugh's results are better. List them out, see what you think.

Steele was a trade and Membrey was a delisted free agent.

Marshall has potential and Sinclair was a terrific rookie get. In fact, isn’t Sinclair the only AA the Saints have had since Nick Riewoldt?

So two somewhat success picks and we should be tooting his horn. My god we embrace mediocrity.

How are Paddy and Billings going?

Trading and picking up delisted free agents is within the ambit of recruiting isn’t it?

How are Paddy and Billings going? My post acknowledged the error in missing Petracca - he should have been selected, and that has been done to death on here. However, Paddy is doing remarkably well, one of the great stories of 2022, resilience and determination. Billings was always predicted in the top 3, in fact Cal Twomey before the draft had him at 2 (before Kelly!), and the Bont at 12. There you go. AFL drafting history is littered with those occurrences. Billings has not been fit for 2 years, should have rested his foot injury in 2021, needs to get fully fit and he will get back to 2019 form. Ross arriving might help him.

Where have I praised Elshaugh? I have merely made the point that his results are better the Peake’s in what was two consecutive mediocre drafting periods.

[Sparks]

Not harsh on Peake, they are the figures, 11 out of 47 for Peake compared to 27 out of 60 for Elshaug. The limitation of course is that only measures players who were good enough to play 50 plus games. Elshaugh had better results in that regard.

We aren’t arguing the same issue here.
Peake was Recruiting Manager not List Manager that was Matthew Drain.
He did not do the trading it was just drafting.
So, what I’m saying is the players drafted at that time 07-010 considering there was only one top ten pick, one teen pick and one pick in the 20’s the rest 40 plus the results in my opinion were solid.
As I said the results are four premiership players, the other was a 150 game plus player and the last a 4 time best and fairest.
I’m not sure if Peake upset you personally but on results I think tou are being harsh and illogical.

[takeaway]

True, some played in premierships with other teams, McEvoy & Steven were very good players, others OK
Another way of looking at it, Peake recruited/drafted 47 players, only 11 of whom played over 50 AFL games. Elshaugh brought in 60, 27 of whom have played over 50. Much better strike rate at least for reaching a reasonable number of AFL games.

You are correct it all depends upon how you look at it.
You did mention Peake didn’t have top end draft picks I’d probably suggest to give a an accurate analysis that probably needs to be considered.
(Just in the act of fairness).
During the 2007-2010 period there was one top ten pick.
(McEvoy).
From memory post that there was at least three and one being number one.
Kite flying here were any of those three picks better than McEvoy?
Next, were any of those three top end picks better than Steven?
Were any of those three picks better than Lynch?
Or Cripps?
So, the point I’m making I’m not against Elshaug or Peake what I’m trying to point out your criticism of Peake was harsh!!

Not harsh on Peake, they are the figures, 11 out of 47 for Peake compared to 27 out of 60 for Elshaug. The limitation of course is that only measures players who were good enough to play 50 plus games. Elshaugh had better results in that regard.

As for high picks, Elshaugh had more and of course missed Petracca as No.1. However, his team did bring in some handy players, most better than McEvoy, Lynch & Cripps, in Steele, Marshall, Sinclair, Membrey, etc.

You would have to list all the players recruited in each period to assess fairly, and both weren't great recruiting periods, but I reckon Elshaugh's results are better. List them out, see what you think.

One bloke fishing in a mud hole created by puddles and excess storm water run off says to the other bloke who is fishing in a trout farm full of trout ...gee you must be a good fisherman - you've caught more fish than me!!

Of course Elshaugh is going to have a better strike rate when we were down the bottom end of the ladder or finishing 9th and 10th for the period under Watters and Richo. Bevo was recruiting when we were challenging in prelims and in Grand Finals

Thanks for confirming Elshaugh had a better strike rate. I have acknowledged that he generally had better picks, but was merely pointing out the he had better results than Peake, in what was 2 consecutive mediocre draft/trade periods. Some posters have short memories. Peake's stint affected us adversely as well.