Clarko and the Hawks alleged disgusting behaviour.

[desertsaint]

Good to see this thread finally maturing into a reasoned discussion, away from the early emotive rants and outright bullying and name calling from many.

[Scollop]

The quoted sections are from Vortex. My responses in yellow

This is the point that also troubles me and I am incredibly cynical about. Like politics, journalism has lost its way in recent decades and the symbiotic relationship between journalists, governments and corporations has become a toxic and self serving entity that is driving mankind down a slippery slope.

That is a ridiculous assumption about the author of the abc news article

No symbiotic relationships between he and commercial interests at all was there? He wasn’t employed by the Murdochracy was he?

I'm sure the journalist who broke this story genuinely believes he and his organisation are part of the solution but I'm not so sure.

Bulldust. He was doing his job as an investigative journalist. He was trying to uncover events that were not known to the public. He didn’t write an opinion piece. He is not a politician or a judge and he hasn’t chosen one side or another and neither is he asking you to choose one side or another.

Listening to Whateley and Robbo drive the division on 360 caused me great distress, Robbo was demanding punishment be metered out in his usual manner and for the life of me I couldn't understand how that could be the solution when so little of us really understood the situation.

You’re misrepresenting what they said. They were offering their opinion and they said that if the report is proven to be true and if the events as told by the families were true, then they reckon it’ll be near impossible for them to go on. They are both journalists. I’ve read countless similar opinion pieces where journos have said their positions as senior coaches are seriously under threat.

That doesn’t mean Vortex or The_Dud or CURLY or DB Cooper can’t think for themselves. It’s within each individuals own interpretation based on their ideals and their perceptions

The solution needs care and understanding and all the media will do is sculpt us into a two sided argument and fuel the conflict via social media. How does that help?

The media are rolling with the words racist and racism in all the headlines. The mainstream media and social media is just a reflection of what society is thinking aren’t they?

Personally, I reckon the issue is partly about the young guys being indigenous, and partly it’s about the Hawthorn hierarchy thinking they had the right to take control of someone’s personal life. Most people are assuming it’s 100% a racial issue. Obviously, you can’t ignore history (with all the brutality of colonialism and the policies of genocide) and you can’t ignore the prejudice that still exists.

I’m not sure if crucifying a couple of blokes is the solution to help educate the masses on discrimination and racism, but the karma bus works in mysterious ways. If Fagan and Clarko wanted some individuals and some families to sacrifice their happiness and their mental well being for the benefit of the Hawthorn Football club …then it’s going to be ironic how they might need to be the sacrificial scapegoats to create some changes in AFL clubs so that young indigenous players are treated better

The spotlight in the media might also help promote indigenous causes especially more money towards Closing The Gap and other health and infrastructure initiatives.

[Vortex]

The quoted sections are from Vortex. My responses in yellow

This is the point that also troubles me and I am incredibly cynical about. Like politics, journalism has lost its way in recent decades and the symbiotic relationship between journalists, governments and corporations has become a toxic and self serving entity that is driving mankind down a slippery slope.

That is a ridiculous assumption about the author of the abc news article

No symbiotic relationships between he and commercial interests at all was there? He wasn’t employed by the Murdochracy was he?

I'm sure the journalist who broke this story genuinely believes he and his organisation are part of the solution but I'm not so sure.

Bulldust. He was doing his job as an investigative journalist. He was trying to uncover events that were not known to the public. He didn’t write an opinion piece. He is not a politician or a judge and he hasn’t chosen one side or another and neither is he asking you to choose one side or another.

Listening to Whateley and Robbo drive the division on 360 caused me great distress, Robbo was demanding punishment be metered out in his usual manner and for the life of me I couldn't understand how that could be the solution when so little of us really understood the situation.

You’re misrepresenting what they said. They were offering their opinion and they said that if the report is proven to be true and if the events as told by the families were true, then they reckon it’ll be near impossible for them to go on. They are both journalists. I’ve read countless similar opinion pieces where journos have said their positions as senior coaches are seriously under threat.

That doesn’t mean Vortex or The_Dud or CURLY or DB Cooper can’t think for themselves. It’s within each individuals own interpretation based on their ideals and their perceptions

The solution needs care and understanding and all the media will do is sculpt us into a two sided argument and fuel the conflict via social media. How does that help?

The media are rolling with the words racist and racism in all the headlines. The mainstream media and social media is just a reflection of what society is thinking aren’t they?

Personally, I reckon the issue is partly about the young guys being indigenous, but mostly it’s about the Hawthorn hierarchy thinking they had the right to take control of someone’s personal life. Most people are assuming it 100% a racial issue.

I’m not sure if crucifying a couple of blokes is the solution to help educate the masses on discrimination and racism, but the karma bus works in mysterious ways. If Fagan and Clarko wanted some individuals and some families to sacrifice their happiness and their mental well being for the benefit of the Hawthorn Football club …then it’s going to be ironic how they might need to be the sacrificial scapegoats to create some changes in AFL clubs so that young indigenous players are treated better

The spotlight in the media might also help promote indigenous causes especially more money towards Closing The Gap and other health and infrastructure initiatives.

Reserving the right to hold judgement until due process is completed.

In the meantime I hope all concerned are given the necessary care and support.

[WellardSaint]

I will repeat what I said.
Young bloke, off the rails for years, gets asked about his time at the hawks.
'Remove sim card to cut ties with family'
He's very unhappy at the moment and is exaggerating.
Family could be cousins with drug habits and a career in petty crimes that need to be out of the picture.
He then conflates that, with the girlfriend having abortion at another stage, and combines the two, purely for gravitas.

Exactly how movies take liberties with the truth when scripting something based on historical events

[Scollop]

I will repeat what I said.
Young bloke, off the rails for years, gets asked about his time at the hawks.
'Remove sim card to cut ties with family'
He's very unhappy at the moment and is exaggerating.
Family could be cousins with drug habits and a career in petty crimes that need to be out of the picture.
He then conflates that, with the girlfriend having abortion at another stage, and combines the two, purely for gravitas.

Exactly how movies take liberties with the truth when scripting something based on historical events

You’ve watched too many movies. I reckon you should watch a few documentaries

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-seri ... ustralians

[The_Dud]

I will repeat what I said.
Young bloke, off the rails for years, gets asked about his time at the hawks.
'Remove sim card to cut ties with family'
He's very unhappy at the moment and is exaggerating.
Family could be cousins with drug habits and a career in petty crimes that need to be out of the picture.
He then conflates that, with the girlfriend having abortion at another stage, and combines the two, purely for gravitas.

Exactly how movies take liberties with the truth when scripting something based on historical events

And what of the other 2 individuals and families interviewed, and the up to 20 in the report that, according to Gil, have more stories to come out along similar lines?

[The_Dud]

Robby Muir, Adam Goodes, Eddy Betts, Collingwood FC, Cyril Rioli.

After all that has come to light in only the last few years people still fight tooth and nail to deny there’s any racial issue in footy (and society) conscious or unconscious.

Taking into account the Cyril Rioli situation, the report (which is seperate from the article) which spoke to up to 20 players and staff and has come back very damning, and the three different parties coming forward with stories that show a clear pattern, I find it extremely hard to believe there is nothing here. The storirs I read I believe, as I have seen or heard no reason not to. If they are 90% correct it is extremely damning. If they are 50% correct it is extremely damning. If they are 50% correct but in fact not racially motivated, they are extremely damning.

I don’t see a positive end to this story for the HFC is any possibility, unless for some reason these 20 people (including the 3 from the article) are all lying. I can’t see a believable reason this would happen. I do see a very believable reason the HFC coaches side of this would lie.

Of the players you mention only Rioli is relevant, as Hawthorn launched the investigation further to his grievances. What have the others got to do with specific allegations against Hawthorn, Clarkson etc? Similar complaints from 3 parties would be compelling if they'd never met, however, I doubt that's the case. Not that I'm suggesting any conspiracy, but I'm confident that they all knew each other in some way, making any similarity less compelling. You are in no position to say its not hard to believe its true, just as I cannot say its all crap, based on the current evidence.

Before all those stories came out recently you would have had the same response and doubters about them, “how could it be true because X was there and didn’t say anything” etc.

How many people on here up until recently referred to Muir with warmth by his much hated nickname? They would have thought no chance is there a problem with it.

What makes you confident they all know each other? Do they all still keep in contact?

I read the stories and I have no reason to believe they’re fabricated. Hopefully there is some hard evidence either way, otherwise this will turn into a he-said-she-said and we all know who comes out on top of those.

[CQ SAINT]

Listen everyone.
Stop the bloody pile-on over Curly.
He's got a strong opinion, which may not agree with yours.
Let him have that opinion, let it go, move on.
His opinion, your opinion, they have zero bearing on what's alleged, and zero effect on things going forward.
All this to n fro is making this thread hard to read.

All of you folk who are abusing Curly- you're just virtue signalling and chest-beating about how Woke you think you are.
You're not woke.
You're just like Granpa Simpson baying at the moon.
Let it go

curly drives me nuts about the umpires but this s*** is over the top
Was going to jump to curlys defence..beat me to it Wellard and well put

This place houses an unhealthy amount of virtue signalling wankers

Virtue signalling. That phrase itself is straight out of the wankers handbook.

[Vortex]

Virtue signalling. That phrase itself is straight out of the wankers handbook.

One phrase of many robbing mankind of meaningful public discourse by arming those incapable of free thought and persuasive argument skills with weaponised words they can use when reaching their limit while defending their anchored ideology.

[Killa]

"arming those incapable of free thought and persuasive argument skills with weaponized words they can use when reaching their limit while defending their anchored ideology"

It takes one to know one, doesn't it?

Free speech is fine, except ..........

[darylcowie]

Hawthorn must go into a hard lockdown immediately to stop the spread of racism (fear).
Once a safe and effective (mis)education rollout is developed, Gil will spruik it ad nauseum and characterise anyone who disagrees with its bona fides as selfish and rascist if they don't join the bandwagon too (division).
Historical Hawthorn coaching staff will be coerced to double down on this education campaign, otherwise they will lose their current coaching jobs (control).
Sound familiar?

[Vortex]

"arming those incapable of free thought and persuasive argument skills with weaponized words they can use when reaching their limit while defending their anchored ideology"

It takes one to know one, doesn't it?

Free speech is fine, except ..........

Happy to debate vaccines with you any day TTT...you can bring your laminated cheat sheets of plagerised 3 word slogans copied from the Herald Sun.

[Devilhead]

My money is on Lethlean knowing that Clarkson was in the gun..... thru his AFL connections

We most definitely dodged a bullet

North obviously do not have those AFL inner circle connections

[WellardSaint]

Fox footy reports that a former Hawks assistant coach has verified and corroborated certain allegations, in writing, and has signed his statement.
Who? Well, Phil Egan says the rules of the review were strict- they didn't talk to any non-Indig players, coaches nor staff.

So the assistant coach identifies as First Nation.

I don't know any of the assistants.
Someone on here who has Hawk mates, step up

[Killa]

You may wish to google the Lancet Magazine and their article on the result of vaccinations across the first year of vaccination availability

If you have an ability to comprehend past 3 words

[Vortex]

You may wish to google the Lancet Magazine and their article on the result of vaccinations across the first year of vaccination availability

If you have an ability to comprehend past 3 words

I don't but fortunately for me your prose doesn't dribble beyond my limit.

[Rubyjo]

Virtue signalling. That phrase itself is straight out of the wankers handbook.

One phrase of many robbing mankind of meaningful public discourse by arming those incapable of free thought and persuasive argument skills with weaponised words they can use when reaching their limit while defending their anchored ideology.

People who virtue signal are the most hypocritical people on the planet ...they will bang on about climate change but will fly around the world in some hedonistic pursuit of happiness and adventure in fossil fuelled aeroplanes..consuming rare resources and polluting the planet ..but still believe in climate change ..

[Rubyjo]

Virtue signalling. That phrase itself is straight out of the wankers handbook.

One phrase of many robbing mankind of meaningful public discourse by arming those incapable of free thought and persuasive argument skills with weaponised words they can use when reaching their limit while defending their anchored ideology.

People who virtue signal are the most hypocritical people on the planet ...they will bang on about climate change but will fly around the world in some hedonistic pursuit of happiness and adventure in fossil fuelled aeroplanes..consuming rare resources and polluting the planet ..but still believe in climate change ..

[Rubyjo]

Virtue signalling. That phrase itself is straight out of the wankers handbook.

One phrase of many robbing mankind of meaningful public discourse by arming those incapable of free thought and persuasive argument skills with weaponised words they can use when reaching their limit while defending their anchored ideology.

People who virtue signal are the most hypocritical people on the planet ...they will bang on about climate change but will fly around the world in some hedonistic pursuit of happiness and adventure in fossil fuelled aeroplanes..consuming rare resources and polluting the planet ..but still believe in climate change ..

[WellardSaint]

Agree with Rubyjo

Agree with Rubyjo

Agree with Rubyjo

[CQ SAINT]

Hmmm. So our club would be better with a bigoted buffoon in charge. Very interesting.

[Yorkeys]

Was Stengle the only player drug tested after the GF?
If so begs all the standard questions and observations.
If not who else.
Norm Smith medalist had huge form improvement. Was Buddy nobbled? Was Gary Rohan given an examination to determine if he has any heart. Danger was spritely, turned back the clock.
Stewart seemed to misjudge a number of body contacts
Heeney looked like he wasn't sure what was going on
Was Dank in the crowd?

[Teflon]

Was Stengle the only player drug tested after the GF?
If so begs all the standard questions and observations.
If not who else.
Norm Smith medalist had huge form improvement. Was Buddy nobbled? Was Gary Rohan given an examination to determine if he has any heart. Danger was spritely, turned back the clock.
Stewart seemed to misjudge a number of body contacts
Heeney looked like he wasn't sure what was going on
Was Dank in the crowd?

Robbie Williams was also apparently for the suit
Think he actually demanded a test

[CURLY]

Was Stengle the only player drug tested after the GF?
If so begs all the standard questions and observations.
If not who else.
Norm Smith medalist had huge form improvement. Was Buddy nobbled? Was Gary Rohan given an examination to determine if he has any heart. Danger was spritely, turned back the clock.
Stewart seemed to misjudge a number of body contacts
Heeney looked like he wasn't sure what was going on
Was Dank in the crowd?

Was waiting for this from some level. Stengle highest goal scorer on the day.

Odd Brisbane are backing Fagan.

[Sanctorum]

It attests to the power and influence of the AFL that it managed to have the mass-media suppress any further comment about what is by any measure the most barbaric racist accusations ever levelled against two high profile coaches at Hawthorn, not a column inch to see in the metro papers (or TV news) just two days after the story was first revealed by the ABC.