Clarko and the Hawks alleged disgusting behaviour.

[SaintPav]

‘I can’t recall’

That was Bill Cinton’s response also when he was first asked whether Monica went down on him

It’s exactly these type of comments I was referring to.

[Vortex]

One of the conclusions drawn by many is that a punishment is due. Does anyone know if any laws have been broken?

Assuming no laws have been broken or there is no potential for the allegations to be tested under civil law then how does society determine a punishment is required?

Genuine questions.

We live in interesting times.

For the record I'm very supportive of improving the lives of first nations people but I am confused if this is the way we advance.

[Sebastian Tombs]

My Question would be if Clarkson is such a Racist , why would Brad Hill want to go and play under him at North? and also have any non first nation players at Hawthorn ever been told "maybe your home life isnt what we think is best for you " or be given advance on a unwanted pregnancy

[shanegrambeau]

One of the conclusions drawn by many is that a punishment is due. Does anyone know if any laws have been broken?

Assuming no laws have been broken or there is no potential for the allegations to be tested under civil law then how does society determine a punishment is required?

Genuine questions.

We live in interesting times.

For the record I'm very supportive of improving the lives of first nations people but I am confused if this is the way we advance.

They use the phrase 'natural justice' now.

Sounds nice, doesn't it?

Just look at human nature for a taste of 'natural' ..animal nature...a pack of barking dogs.

Look at the 'shock'..as if how could it happen?

And look at the 'branding' going on..Trump, Fox, Hitler..
The 'natural order' ??

[The_Dud]

Don’t be those things

Read the article yet?

Hung them yet?

Sounds over exagerated to be honest.

So you don’t even know what they said and you’re default response is they’re exaggerating?

#definitelynotracist

Yep read it would like to hear from the two that are being accused before I hang.

Look I understand for you it’s jump on the minority that way you can never be seen as wrong.

If you read it why did you fabricate scenarios to try justify their alleged behaviour?

I look at the evidence presented in the article and history of Hawthorn including the recent Cyril Rioli departure to conclude there’s most likely something in this.

You seem to just look at the individuals demographics and always seem to fall on the side of a very specific group.

[The_Dud]

One of the conclusions drawn by many is that a punishment is due. Does anyone know if any laws have been broken?

Assuming no laws have been broken or there is no potential for the allegations to be tested under civil law then how does society determine a punishment is required?

Genuine questions.

We live in interesting times.

For the record I'm very supportive of improving the lives of first nations people but I am confused if this is the way we advance.

They use the phrase 'natural justice' now.

Sounds nice, doesn't it?

Just look at human nature for a taste of 'natural' ..animal nature...a pack of barking dogs.

Look at the 'shock'..as if how could it happen?

And look at the 'branding' going on..Trump, Fox, Hitler..
The 'natural order' ??

I think by natural justice they’re referring to those 2 probably not getting a job in coaching ever again.

[CURLY]

Don’t be those things

Read the article yet?

Hung them yet?

Sounds over exagerated to be honest.

So you don’t even know what they said and you’re default response is they’re exaggerating?

#definitelynotracist

Yep read it would like to hear from the two that are being accused before I hang.

Look I understand for you it’s jump on the minority that way you can never be seen as wrong.

If you read it why did you fabricate scenarios to try justify their alleged behaviour?

I look at the evidence presented in the article and history of Hawthorn including the recent Cyril Rioli departure to conclude there’s most likely something in this.

You seem to just look at the individuals demographics and always seem to fall on the side of a very specific group.

No I live in a world where the full story needs to be heard to make judgement.

Imagine Dud being in charge of HR there wouldn’t be a manager left in the organisation.

[skeptic]

It’s hard to imagine that these things didn’t occur as stated…
What’s missing is the context. The first story for example, those aren’t rationale responses to the challenge. Hence the question becomes what was happening that got the club so worried like that?

That leads to the two obvious follow ups… is there a reasonable scenario that sees a club advocate for separation of a relationship and termination of a pregnancy?

Secondly… would they take this course of action with a non-Indigenous person.

On both levels it doesn’t seem right.

The next thing that perplexes me though is how have Clarkson and Fagan become the principle figures of interest here. Surely decisions like these would be primarily driven through the club’s welfare individuals?

We’re talking about near DFFH levels of intervention (noting that they’re obviously adults).

I’m also unsure as to how this happened so vehemently against the wishes of all those involved and the non-specific denial from Fagan and Clarkson.
If there was no wrong doing whatsoever, I’d expect a more impassioned response focused on clearing his name… this is obviously juxtaposed with I guess what legal instruct him t say.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that like most things… the answer is pbly in the middle but geeez we are still missing a lot of information

My gut says it seems fairly unlikely that at least some misconduct hasn’t occurred but I can’t say i have my head around it either

[magnifisaint]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/haw ... 5bk1d.html

This is really stinking the place up!!

[skeptic]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/haw ... 5bk1d.html

This is really stinking the place up!!

So have I read this correctly…
The partner was pressured into a termination and the player away told she miscarried?

Not doubting the validity but it’s hard to imagine that anyone would think this is a reasonable course of action.

[markp]

It’s hard to imagine that these things didn’t occur as stated…
What’s missing is the context. The first story for example, those aren’t rationale responses to the challenge. Hence the question becomes what was happening that got the club so worried like that?

That leads to the two obvious follow ups… is there a reasonable scenario that sees a club advocate for separation of a relationship and termination of a pregnancy?

Secondly… would they take this course of action with a non-Indigenous person.

On both levels it doesn’t seem right.

The next thing that perplexes me though is how have Clarkson and Fagan become the principle figures of interest here. Surely decisions like these would be primarily driven through the club’s welfare individuals?

We’re talking about near DFFH levels of intervention (noting that they’re obviously adults).

I’m also unsure as to how this happened so vehemently against the wishes of all those involved and the non-specific denial from Fagan and Clarkson.
If there was no wrong doing whatsoever, I’d expect a more impassioned response focused on clearing his name… this is obviously juxtaposed with I guess what legal instruct him t say.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that like most things… the answer is pbly in the middle but geeez we are still missing a lot of information

My gut says it seems fairly unlikely that at least some misconduct hasn’t occurred but I can’t say i have my head around it either

Of course the process has to play out.

But it was the club's own report, which even also recommends reparations may need to be paid.

All involved (accused) have taken indefinite leave.

Nobody involved has even mentioned suing anybody for defamation (ya reckon the AFL would countenance that playing out when it involves such a sensitive issue as the personal accounts from indigenous players of alleged abuse and mistreatment?).

The least likely outcome was going to be "yeah, I'm guilty", and "yeah, it was racially motivated "... because if that's true then they are rightly and completely done.

The second least likely outcome is that it's all a concocted fiction.

They may reasonably contest that it had nothing to do with race, that they were just concerned about the individuals and their individual circumstances... but 3 very similar cases involving indigenous couples, pregnancies, alleged controlling and bullying behaviour, etc, does kinda start to resemble a problematic trend and pattern.

The AFL investigation is being overseen by a King's Counsel, but they're not on trial... they're not facing jail, the legal right to due process and the presumption of innocence are not strictly applicable here, and weren't during the dorks initial investigation... as far as the individuals are concerned it's likely ultimately mostly a question of whether or how they return from indefinite leave (and in what state their reputations are left). But people do lose their jobs every day for considerably less.


It may come to pass that the story does a 180, but that would just about be an even bigger story... and this is already gigantic.

Hard to see how they're not screwed... or dare I say, in more trouble than the early settlers.

And it's not a stretch to surmise as much.

[The_Dud]

It’s hard to imagine that these things didn’t occur as stated…
What’s missing is the context. The first story for example, those aren’t rationale responses to the challenge. Hence the question becomes what was happening that got the club so worried like that?

That leads to the two obvious follow ups… is there a reasonable scenario that sees a club advocate for separation of a relationship and termination of a pregnancy?

Secondly… would they take this course of action with a non-Indigenous person.

On both levels it doesn’t seem right.

The next thing that perplexes me though is how have Clarkson and Fagan become the principle figures of interest here. Surely decisions like these would be primarily driven through the club’s welfare individuals?

We’re talking about near DFFH levels of intervention (noting that they’re obviously adults).

I’m also unsure as to how this happened so vehemently against the wishes of all those involved and the non-specific denial from Fagan and Clarkson.
If there was no wrong doing whatsoever, I’d expect a more impassioned response focused on clearing his name… this is obviously juxtaposed with I guess what legal instruct him t say.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that like most things… the answer is pbly in the middle but geeez we are still missing a lot of information

My gut says it seems fairly unlikely that at least some misconduct hasn’t occurred but I can’t say i have my head around it either

That’s half of the issue the report has seemed to dig up, Hawthorn did not have the proper resources at the time to deal with these sorts of situations, so you appear to have people stepping out of their lane and thoroughly f-ing up.

[Devilhead]

Yep read it would like to hear from the two that are being accused before I hang.

Look I understand for you it’s jump on the minority that way you can never be seen as wrong.

F**k me Curly, the poor middle age white man minority. You know what they say about arguing with idiots....

If I am a white man .... why do I have brown skin?

[SaintPav]

The process has to play out but they’re all guilty.

Friggin priceless.

[CURLY]

The process has to play out but they’re all guilty.

Friggin priceless.

Great system.

[markp]

The process has to play out but they’re all guilty.

Friggin priceless.

Nup.

The process has to play out but given the extent and detail of the allegations, while it is possible, it is also hard to see how misconduct has not occurred... and it's not unreasonable for people here to surmise as much.

But good effort at basic comprehension.

[SaintPav]

OMG.

At least two key witnesses have yet to be interviewed.

The AFL is exposed to litigation risk from both the complainants and the respondents, but people get sacked every day for doing less.

Billion dollar business, million dollar jobs and public reputations at stake.

Amateur hour.

[The Fireman]

Listen everyone.
Stop the bloody pile-on over Curly.
He's got a strong opinion, which may not agree with yours.
Let him have that opinion, let it go, move on.
His opinion, your opinion, they have zero bearing on what's alleged, and zero effect on things going forward.
All this to n fro is making this thread hard to read.

All of you folk who are abusing Curly- you're just virtue signalling and chest-beating about how Woke you think you are.
You're not woke.
You're just like Granpa Simpson baying at the moon.
Let it go

curly drives me nuts about the umpires but this s*** is over the top
Was going to jump to curlys defence..beat me to it Wellard and well put

This place houses an unhealthy amount of virtue signalling wankers

[markp]

Yep. So the process plays out.

Meanwhile, this is a footy forum (and it's an AFL investigation)... not a court of law.


But good work perry mason.

[SaintPav]

You’re welcome, markp brain.

[Vortex]

Eddy Betts has said the allegations remind him of the stolen generation. I'm trying to understand his comments, I think I get how he is making the connection from a racism point of view but as someone that has some experience in forced adoption and the white stolen stolen generations I'm wondering if it's solely a race issue.

A complex issue to unpack which may only be achieved by those tasked with investigating the facts and context.

As a side note this is another important event hijacked by our toxic corporate and social media landscape.

[The G Train Legacy]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/haw ... 5bk1d.html

This is really stinking the place up!!

So have I read this correctly…
The partner was pressured into a termination and the player away told she miscarried?

Not doubting the validity but it’s hard to imagine that anyone would think this is a reasonable course of action.

If the allegation is true, then its definitely more than unreasonable. However one cannot be of no doubt of the validity of the allegations. And if the allegations are not valid, doesn't mean someone is lying.

[The G Train Legacy]

OMG.

At least two key witnesses have yet to be interviewed.

The AFL is exposed to litigation risk from both the complainants and the respondents, but people get sacked every day for doing less.

Billion dollar business, million dollar jobs and public reputations at stake.

Amateur hour.

It really is looking like a typical HR investigation run by reactionary HR type people of little competence.

[The G Train Legacy]

I'm hearing, not sure on accuracy, that the 3 people who spoke to the ABC were involved in Hawthorn's investigation. That they didn't mention what they told the ABC in the investigation. If this is true and I reiterate that I don't know, then its a clusterf**k.

[The Fireman]

Eddy Betts has said the allegations remind him of the stolen generation. I'm trying to understand his comments, I think I get how he is making the connection from a racism point of view but as someone that has some experience in forced adoption and the white stolen stolen generations I'm wondering if it's solely a race issue.

A complex issue to unpack which may only be achieved by those tasked with investigating the facts and context.

As a side note this is another important event hijacked by our toxic corporate and social media landscape.

Agreed mr Vortex

And would like to add I only believe my brothers.