McCartin and Hickey

[saintsRrising]

Hickey or Stanley.....at present there will be an ex-St Kilda Premiership Ruckman next week.

[takeaway]

Paddy has a chance to go one up in the Trout cup …

I know you are talking about down playing 2020, but everyone was competing on equal terms and history is littered with changes and variations to the rules, but a premiership is a premiership. We were probably the best team in the 1991 finals series but we got knocked out because of a stupid finals system.

Can you please not mention that Essendon pricks name again here on the forum. Fact is we wasted our number 1 draft pick. Simple as that…AND I don’t think that because we shoud have chosen Petracca or someone else…but because stats for Paddy’s first few years were horrid.

He was selected as a KP Forward but he wasn’t even as good as Tim Membrey. They were competing for a spot in the forward line and before Paddy had his final concussion we were getting much better value from Membrey. I checked footy wire for their comparative averages including goals for each of 2016, 2017 and 2018.

You can compare the two for each year. Don't think about using injuries as an excuse for his fitness or for his output. When he was selected and at the start of each game he didn’t have concussion

I understand Tim is a little older so I did a comparison of their stats for a few years into their careers. Paddy was 22 in 2018. Tim was 22 years of age in 2016. Tim was originally chosen by the Swans as a 3rd rounder at pick# 46 and we picked him up for nothing as a delisted free agent.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2018

Interesting stats. McCartin's are better than I thought, especially with lack of continuity due to injury/concussions, and the fact he was a different forward to Membrey, being taller and going for pack marks more often, whereas Membrey was more the roaming forward.. Did you do a comparison of Membrey to say Tom Hawkins or Harry Mackay at the same ages as Paddy? Bet Membrey was ahead there as well.

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions, and there is no doubt Petracca should have been taken. However, Paddy's efforts with Sydney have shown his determination and character, and the fact that he can certainly play a bit. I'll be barracking for Sydney next week.

[Scollop]

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions

I disagree. Part of the main reason he couldn’t perform and part of the main reason he found himself out of position or in dangerous compromising positions was due to his lack of fitness and agility.

Paddy also had more problems recovering from concussion than most players because of his diabetes. Paddy couldn’t push himself to exhaustion in preseasons the way other young players do because of his diabetes. We couldn’t manage him and get him up to AFL fitness because of his diabetes.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/101285/goin ... his-tracks

The evidence was there and Trout chose to ignore it. He is a d**khead

……
….
Yes Paddy can play a bit. Yes, he has shown incredible resilience and yes, I’ll be barracking for the Swans as well.

[Devilhead]

Hickey has matured into an OK ruckman - he is 31 now

Although he played some good games at StK he wasn’t nearly as good as he is now.

That’s because he wasn’t given the chance to reach his potential at St Kilda

Correct ... because big guys usually take more time to reach that potential

Most could see he had some good qualities but some on here only saw a gumby

[takeaway]

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions

I disagree. Part of the main reason he couldn’t perform and part of the main reason he found himself out of position or in dangerous compromising positions was due to his lack of fitness and agility.

Paddy also had more problems recovering from concussion than most players because of his diabetes. Paddy couldn’t push himself to exhaustion in preseasons the way other young players do because of his diabetes. We couldn’t manage him and get him up to AFL fitness because of his diabetes.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/101285/goin ... his-tracks

The evidence was there and Trout chose to ignore it. He is a d**khead

……
….
Yes Paddy can play a bit. Yes, he has shown incredible resilience and yes, I’ll be barracking for the Swans as well.

Quoted the wrong article? Describes how Paddy dealt with the diagnosis when young and worked on his fitness to become very fit and be one of the sought after draftees by 2014. The rest of your argument is straight from your McCartin pigeon hole, most of which he has now disproved.

[shanegrambeau]

Paddy looks leaner/trimmer/fitter at Sydney than he did at St Kilda.

Hill looked porky at St Kilda compared to Freo too.

Is there a pancake parlour at Moorabbin?

[B.M]

Paddy still looks fat and slow

[magnifisaint]

Paddy is very over rated. He definitely isn't in the top 10 draft choices in his year. It's not his fault though. Hopefully he doesn't suffer any more concussions.

[Scollop]

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions

I disagree. Part of the main reason he couldn’t perform and part of the main reason he found himself out of position or in dangerous compromising positions was due to his lack of fitness and agility.

Paddy also had more problems recovering from concussion than most players because of his diabetes. Paddy couldn’t push himself to exhaustion in preseasons the way other young players do because of his diabetes. We couldn’t manage him and get him up to AFL fitness because of his diabetes.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/101285/goin ... his-tracks

The evidence was there and Trout chose to ignore it. He is a d**khead

……
….
Yes Paddy can play a bit. Yes, he has shown incredible resilience and yes, I’ll be barracking for the Swans as well.

Quoted the wrong article? Describes how Paddy dealt with the diagnosis when young and worked on his fitness to become very fit and be one of the sought after draftees by 2014. The rest of your argument is straight from your McCartin pigeon hole, most of which he has now disproved.

Did you miss the sentence in the article that talked about 'delayed concussion'? Bring the page back up and do a search for those specific words. Mccartin had issues recovering from concussion as a junior and in his TAC years before we drafted him.

There's also articles on Saints.com where Elshaug says he had skinfolds of 70 and he needed to get fitter and his body shape needed to improve. They knew all that and ignored the risks

I'm not putting the blame on a teenager for the way we developed him. I'm not putting the blame on Paddy for why we picked him at number 1

My McCartin pigeon hole
LOL

At least I don't speak through my butthole like you and continue to be an apologist for the monumental and disastrous decisions of our football department in the last 10 years

[CQ SAINT]

Paddy and Tom were puffing their guts out in that last quarter. Collingwood look fit as F***.

[takeaway]

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions

I disagree. Part of the main reason he couldn’t perform and part of the main reason he found himself out of position or in dangerous compromising positions was due to his lack of fitness and agility.

Paddy also had more problems recovering from concussion than most players because of his diabetes. Paddy couldn’t push himself to exhaustion in preseasons the way other young players do because of his diabetes. We couldn’t manage him and get him up to AFL fitness because of his diabetes.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/101285/goin ... his-tracks

The evidence was there and Trout chose to ignore it. He is a d**khead

……
….
Yes Paddy can play a bit. Yes, he has shown incredible resilience and yes, I’ll be barracking for the Swans as well.

Quoted the wrong article? Describes how Paddy dealt with the diagnosis when young and worked on his fitness to become very fit and be one of the sought after draftees by 2014. The rest of your argument is straight from your McCartin pigeon hole, most of which he has now disproved.

Did you miss the sentence in the article that talked about 'delayed concussion'? Bring the page back up and do a search for those specific words. Mccartin had issues recovering from concussion as a junior and in his TAC years before we drafted him.

There's also articles on Saints.com where Elshaug says he had skinfolds of 70 and he needed to get fitter and his body shape needed to improve. They knew all that and ignored the risks

I'm not putting the blame on a teenager for the way we developed him. I'm not putting the blame on Paddy for why we picked him at number 1

My McCartin pigeon hole
LOL

At least I don't speak through my butthole like you and continue to be an apologist for the monumental and disastrous decisions of our football department in the last 10 years

So you confirm my initial point, re-quoted (in part) by you, and obvious to most, that “Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions”. He never got a decent run at it due to injury and concussions, ie lack of continuity which affects form and fitness.

The article is irrelevant, as it is almost 12 months pre draft, and it is Paddy talking, not me, stating “he was the fittest he had ever been”. Very few new draftees are AFL fitness ready, and Paddy never got the chance to get there due to lack of continuity. He seems to have achieved that pretty well at Sydney, even with his diabetes?

I was disputing your comments re his general football ability, such as “not as good as Membrey”, “found himself out of position”, which I believe have now been disproved.

Club apologist? You conveniently left out my comment “there is no doubt Petracca should have been taken”.

Is it possible to open these pigeon holes of yours and at least review them, update/correct them? You’ll have to archive Longy’s anyway. And all of Richo’s pigeon holes? You could easily save some mental room and rationalise them down to “everything was his fault”.

[SaintPav]

Paddy looks leaner/trimmer/fitter at Sydney than he did at St Kilda.

Hill looked porky at St Kilda compared to Freo too.

Is there a pancake parlour at Moorabbin?

Hill’s body shape is totally unacceptable given what he is being paid and what they paid to get him.

If these are the standards Ratten is setting then no wonder the club needed a review just weeks after making key senior appointments.

[magnifisaint]

Both average players.

[Killa]

What is overlooked is that St Kilda had the Number 1 Draft Pick because it was the BOTTOM Club in the competition

So an 18 year old key forward coming into the BOTTOM side

And expected to take the side up the ladder - immediately

He did not have the likes of Gehrig and Hamill alongside him

And he did not have the likes of Hayes and Montagna among others pumping the ball into the forward line

His choice as Number 1 was justified

[Vortex]

What is overlooked is that St Kilda had the Number 1 Draft Pick because it was the BOTTOM Club in the competition

So an 18 year old key forward coming into the BOTTOM side

And expected to take the side up the ladder - immediately

He did not have the likes of Gehrig and Hamill alongside him

And he did not have the likes of Hayes and Montagna among others pumping the ball into the forward line

His choice as Number 1 was justified

Huh so that's how you earn the number 1 draft selection.

You could be a politician TTT, you say a lot without making any sense.

But back on the footy, history is repeating, we have used a high DP to recruit a key forward to build a team around but have failed to build the team.

[Ghost Like]

What is overlooked is that St Kilda had the Number 1 Draft Pick because it was the BOTTOM Club in the competition

So an 18 year old key forward coming into the BOTTOM side

And expected to take the side up the ladder - immediately

He did not have the likes of Gehrig and Hamill alongside him

And he did not have the likes of Hayes and Montagna among others pumping the ball into the forward line

His choice as Number 1 was justified

Did we not choose him as a key forward? That was a knee jerk reaction to Boyd being snapped up by the Dogs and Roo's career coming to an end. We failed to pick the best player available.

If Paddy was about to line up as Sydney's key forward in this weeks GF then some of what you claim may make sense.

[Scollop]

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions

I disagree. Part of the main reason he couldn’t perform and part of the main reason he found himself out of position or in dangerous compromising positions was due to his lack of fitness and agility.

Paddy also had more problems recovering from concussion than most players because of his diabetes. Paddy couldn’t push himself to exhaustion in preseasons the way other young players do because of his diabetes. We couldn’t manage him and get him up to AFL fitness because of his diabetes.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/101285/goin ... his-tracks

The evidence was there and Trout chose to ignore it. He is a d**khead

……
….
Yes Paddy can play a bit. Yes, he has shown incredible resilience and yes, I’ll be barracking for the Swans as well.

Quoted the wrong article? Describes how Paddy dealt with the diagnosis when young and worked on his fitness to become very fit and be one of the sought after draftees by 2014. The rest of your argument is straight from your McCartin pigeon hole, most of which he has now disproved.

Did you miss the sentence in the article that talked about 'delayed concussion'? Bring the page back up and do a search for those specific words. Mccartin had issues recovering from concussion as a junior and in his TAC years before we drafted him.

There's also articles on Saints.com where Elshaug says he had skinfolds of 70 and he needed to get fitter and his body shape needed to improve. They knew all that and ignored the risks

I'm not putting the blame on a teenager for the way we developed him. I'm not putting the blame on Paddy for why we picked him at number 1

My McCartin pigeon hole
LOL

At least I don't speak through my butthole like you and continue to be an apologist for the monumental and disastrous decisions of our football department in the last 10 years

So you confirm my initial point, re-quoted (in part) by you, and obvious to most, that “Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions”. He never got a decent run at it due to injury and concussions, ie lack of continuity which affects form and fitness.

The article is irrelevant, as it is almost 12 months pre draft, and it is Paddy talking, not me, stating “he was the fittest he had ever been”. Very few new draftees are AFL fitness ready, and Paddy never got the chance to get there due to lack of continuity. He seems to have achieved that pretty well at Sydney, even with his diabetes?

I was disputing your comments re his general football ability, such as “not as good as Membrey”, “found himself out of position”, which I believe have now been disproved.

Club apologist? You conveniently left out my comment “there is no doubt Petracca should have been taken”.

Is it possible to open these pigeon holes of yours and at least review them, update/correct them? You’ll have to archive Longy’s anyway. And all of Richo’s pigeon holes? You could easily save some mental room and rationalise them down to “everything was his fault”.

Step by step it is so easy to pull apart each sentence and each of your arguments. AND…once again…. Using the word ‘essentially’ doesn’t all of a sudden make your point correct. It sounds good….hey it’s a strong statement, but it’s crap

Quoting the article where Paddy says he was the ‘fittest he’d ever been’ is a strong statement too. Pity his personal best was no where near AFL standard. Pity that St Kilda ignored the risks.

Paddy had issues recovering from concussions prior to being drafted as an 18 year old. Fact. Paddy had issues with his fitness prior to being drafted. Fact. Both were mostly or partly related to his diabetes. Fact.

You’ve let yourself down. I thought you’d at least come up with something new rather than ‘pigeon holes’ and ‘Longy’ and ‘Richo’. It’s pissweak and typical of posters who attack the man rather than discussing the issues. Did you get upset in this thread because I initially hung it on your hero Ross Lyon?

[B.M]

McCartin is OK

Nothing in his game is elite, never was

Pretty much everything in Petracca’s game is elite. He is a beast, and a game breaker.

He just picked up 24 votes in the Brownlow splitting votes with his ‘even better’ mate Oliver.

[Yorkeys]

Well Tom and Paddy are playing in a GF and Pettracia isn't. They won a couple of finals, Pettracia lost a couple. Team game.
The big push for Paddy was as a replacement for Nick. No one thought laterally when that didn't work out. However for about 10 years the club hasn't been that good at thinking at all. Looks like that's changing but we still do dumb things that cost us a place in the 8. Cairns, too many pregame novelty occasions, thinking any day now Higgins and Butler will fire, thinking Seb as good as he is can match it with the comps best mids in crunch games.... etc

[falka]

You reckon it’s possible we could get a class action going against Elshaugh and the club for picking McCartin over Petracca?

Loss of trust in club, loss of enjoyment in following the game?

Not sure what I want as compensation, but wow, what a complete stuff up

[bangaulegend]

What is overlooked is that St Kilda had the Number 1 Draft Pick because it was the BOTTOM Club in the competition

So an 18 year old key forward coming into the BOTTOM side

And expected to take the side up the ladder - immediately

He did not have the likes of Gehrig and Hamill alongside him

And he did not have the likes of Hayes and Montagna among others pumping the ball into the forward line

His choice as Number 1 was justified

No I think that even uneducated people know that if you finish last there is a fair chance you are going to get the No.1 pick & you would think that people employed by the club should have a pretty good idea of who that 1st pick should be obviously they didn't.

[takeaway]

Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions

I disagree. Part of the main reason he couldn’t perform and part of the main reason he found himself out of position or in dangerous compromising positions was due to his lack of fitness and agility.

Paddy also had more problems recovering from concussion than most players because of his diabetes. Paddy couldn’t push himself to exhaustion in preseasons the way other young players do because of his diabetes. We couldn’t manage him and get him up to AFL fitness because of his diabetes.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/101285/goin ... his-tracks

The evidence was there and Trout chose to ignore it. He is a d**khead

……
….
Yes Paddy can play a bit. Yes, he has shown incredible resilience and yes, I’ll be barracking for the Swans as well.

Quoted the wrong article? Describes how Paddy dealt with the diagnosis when young and worked on his fitness to become very fit and be one of the sought after draftees by 2014. The rest of your argument is straight from your McCartin pigeon hole, most of which he has now disproved.

Did you miss the sentence in the article that talked about 'delayed concussion'? Bring the page back up and do a search for those specific words. Mccartin had issues recovering from concussion as a junior and in his TAC years before we drafted him.

There's also articles on Saints.com where Elshaug says he had skinfolds of 70 and he needed to get fitter and his body shape needed to improve. They knew all that and ignored the risks

I'm not putting the blame on a teenager for the way we developed him. I'm not putting the blame on Paddy for why we picked him at number 1

My McCartin pigeon hole
LOL

At least I don't speak through my butthole like you and continue to be an apologist for the monumental and disastrous decisions of our football department in the last 10 years

So you confirm my initial point, re-quoted (in part) by you, and obvious to most, that “Paddy didn't work for the Saints, essentially due to concussions”. He never got a decent run at it due to injury and concussions, ie lack of continuity which affects form and fitness.

The article is irrelevant, as it is almost 12 months pre draft, and it is Paddy talking, not me, stating “he was the fittest he had ever been”. Very few new draftees are AFL fitness ready, and Paddy never got the chance to get there due to lack of continuity. He seems to have achieved that pretty well at Sydney, even with his diabetes?

I was disputing your comments re his general football ability, such as “not as good as Membrey”, “found himself out of position”, which I believe have now been disproved.

Club apologist? You conveniently left out my comment “there is no doubt Petracca should have been taken”.

Is it possible to open these pigeon holes of yours and at least review them, update/correct them? You’ll have to archive Longy’s anyway. And all of Richo’s pigeon holes? You could easily save some mental room and rationalise them down to “everything was his fault”.

Step by step it is so easy to pull apart each sentence and each of your arguments. AND…once again…. Using the word ‘essentially’ doesn’t all of a sudden make your point correct. It sounds good….hey it’s a strong statement, but it’s crap

Quoting the article where Paddy says he was the ‘fittest he’d ever been’ is a strong statement too. Pity his personal best was no where near AFL standard. Pity that St Kilda ignored the risks.

Paddy had issues recovering from concussions prior to being drafted as an 18 year old. Fact. Paddy had issues with his fitness prior to being drafted. Fact. Both were mostly or partly related to his diabetes. Fact.

You’ve let yourself down. I thought you’d at least come up with something new rather than ‘pigeon holes’ and ‘Longy’ and ‘Richo’. It’s pissweak and typical of posters who attack the man rather than discussing the issues. Did you get upset in this thread because I initially hung it on your hero Ross Lyon?

You mentioned Rossy in an earlier post in this thread? Damn, must have missed it! I'll have a look. Hate missing your posts. Saves me doing the cryptic crossword.

[takeaway]

McCartin is OK

Nothing in his game is elite, never was

Pretty much everything in Petracca’s game is elite. He is a beast, and a game breaker.

He just picked up 24 votes in the Brownlow splitting votes with his ‘even better’ mate Oliver.

I'd agree, but it is amazing that Paddy is back playing, and an important cog in a GF team. I think his reading of the play, judgement of the ball in flight, and disposal is pretty good though.

Petracca took a while to get there, but he has been in the elite class for a couple of years now.

[B.M]

Couple of years?

Has been a top 10 AFL player since 2018

That’s 5 years

[Scollop]

Petracca took a while to get there, but he has been in the elite class for a couple of years now.

Yeah agreed. Petracca’s career only took off really when Alan Richardson joined Melbourne