Long Trade

[CQ SAINT]

Sinclair was not considered best 22 for the first 8 matches of 2020 from memory.

Did he ever have a top 10 B&F finish before 2021?

Settles into a role at half back and has churned out 2 x AA standard seasons.

Not saying Long will be at that level, but I expect increased output and consistency when he is given the opportunity to settle into the half back role.

I hear this theory presented often on our socials but what it fails to recognise is how long should a player be given to "settle" into a position in the hope it will somehow produce a skilful player. I mean when it comes to Long how many positions did he need to be trialled in because he was given lengthy stints in a few positions. Even at his best he was just Ok but his inconsistency and lack of concentration is what made him untrustworthy and a liability.

As long as it takes once the necessary skills have been demonstrated.
People develop at different rates depending on circumstances and coaches.
Sincs was not an immediate star. I suspect Dew is a better coach than Richo (who isn't) and Brett.
Ben is likely to well under him if GC lifestyle doesn't get him first.

nup. gotta start sacking players like we sack coaches, coaches only get 2 years and the same should apply to players. 6 or 7 years on a list is way to long to prove you can or can't help with the silverware. Some players need a new club to prove themselves so hopefully it works out for Benny but he reached the end of the line at our club.

Yeah. And developed 24 ,year olds out of contract and looking for more opportunities will still pick Richmond, Carlton and Collingwood and we will just keep churning over what is left over.

If Lyon got one thing right he locked in a group of 30 players and won their trust by persisting with them, as long as they stuck to the team rules on field play or didn't get seriously injured

It was all going really well, until he f***ed over Luke Ball.

[Sanctorum]

For a while I thought Ben long, after his outstanding game in Rd 23, was someone who should be retained, but considering all of his history at Moorabbin I'm now more inclined to believe that if St Kilda can get a 2nd or early 3rd round pick it'll be worth it, as the list needs a lot of improvement.

I could be wrong but I'm also inclined to think that moving to the Gold Coast, with all of the cultural distractions and a coach who imho will not turn him into a better player, will see him continue to be just another fair average player. He would have been better off to move to North where Clarkson would definitely get Long to do the hard yards and play consistent footy.

Ben has literally been in Melbourne since he was 15 at boarding school. He has become a grown man and had very generous development into his leadership and culture at St.Kilda.
I can hardly imagine any cultural distractions that might throw him off his course.
It seems to me that Ben's problem is that St.Kilda have recruited around players of his ilk because a lot was expected and not immediately delivered.
Given his skillset and leadership qualities and that he came in through a 'back door' drafting strategy, as did Marshall (who we discovered was a ruck by necessity) Wilkie, Paton, Sinclair and others who have not made it.
They were projects and with the exception of Wilkie, they all took time to find there niche.
We f***ed Benny 2 ways, we damped his mercurial traits and failed to turn his attacking style onto the ball, instead of the man.
He'll probably play small forward/mid at The Suns and do well.

Is there any firm evidence CQS for your assertion that St Kilda coaches during his time at Moorabbin "f***ed Benny 2 ways, we damped his mercurial traits and failed to turn his attacking style onto the ball, instead of the man." ? Did players report this or is it a confection by the journos?

The "cultural distractions" in Melbourne are totally different on the "surf and sun strip" he's moving to, for a start on the GC he will attract far less fan and media interest than he did in Melbourne. It's also been well documented over the years that GC Suns players have been involved in off-field indiscretions in their spare time, which is to be expected when you consider that the majority of the players do not have immediate family support networks living close by.

As I said earlier, I liked Ben Long and for long time felt he was on the cusp of a breakout year, and I certainly hope he succeeds at Carrara, but he'll need to produce a lot more than the average 12 disposals to warrant a long term deal on the $500-600K that's been mentioned.

[CQ SAINT]

For a while I thought Ben long, after his outstanding game in Rd 23, was someone who should be retained, but considering all of his history at Moorabbin I'm now more inclined to believe that if St Kilda can get a 2nd or early 3rd round pick it'll be worth it, as the list needs a lot of improvement.

I could be wrong but I'm also inclined to think that moving to the Gold Coast, with all of the cultural distractions and a coach who imho will not turn him into a better player, will see him continue to be just another fair average player. He would have been better off to move to North where Clarkson would definitely get Long to do the hard yards and play consistent footy.

Ben has literally been in Melbourne since he was 15 at boarding school. He has become a grown man and had very generous development into his leadership and culture at St.Kilda.
I can hardly imagine any cultural distractions that might throw him off his course.
It seems to me that Ben's problem is that St.Kilda have recruited around players of his ilk because a lot was expected and not immediately delivered.
Given his skillset and leadership qualities and that he came in through a 'back door' drafting strategy, as did Marshall (who we discovered was a ruck by necessity) Wilkie, Paton, Sinclair and others who have not made it.
They were projects and with the exception of Wilkie, they all took time to find there niche.
We f***ed Benny 2 ways, we damped his mercurial traits and failed to turn his attacking style onto the ball, instead of the man.
He'll probably play small forward/mid at The Suns and do well.

Is there any firm evidence CQS for your assertion that St Kilda coaches during his time at Moorabbin "f***ed Benny 2 ways, we damped his mercurial traits and failed to turn his attacking style onto the ball, instead of the man." ? Did players report this or is it a confection by the journos?

The "cultural distractions" in Melbourne are totally different on the "surf and sun strip" he's moving to, for a start on the GC he will attract far less fan and media interest than he did in Melbourne. It's also been well documented over the years that GC Suns players have been involved in off-field indiscretions in their spare time, which is to be expected when you consider that the majority of the players do not have immediate family support networks living close by.

As I said earlier, I liked Ben Long and for long time felt he was on the cusp of a breakout year, and I certainly hope he succeeds at Carrara, but he'll need to produce a lot more than the average 12 disposals to warrant a long term deal on the $500-600K that's been mentioned.

Lol. I had a keen interest in Ben Long when he came along in 17 because I'm part Aboriginal.
There were still some older, wiser heads and great leaders in the club and Ben responded immediately.
In his first 30 games he was nominated for the rising star, mark of the year, goal of the year and won acknowledgement as a hard tackler, had obvious pace and skill and he attacked the ball fiercely, bringing others into the game as a defensive small forward with slick handball and he was very accurate by foot.
So, after 30 outings he was rewarded with a 3 year extension based on 21.15 in front of goal, averaging 10d, 3m, 3tk in a team that won 9 of those games.
Despite us having HB's coming out of our clackers, in 2020, it was decided he would go to half back to sit off the play and rebound, fill gaps, chase and tackle and generally waste his mercurial talents, being accountable for an opponent. He wasn't put there because his form was disappointing and he did a good job but because our list and drafting was pathetic, he was charged with fixing a deficiency at 21 after 30 games. He'd spent the last 4 years developing as a forward? But no. We haven't f***ed him around at all.

[bangaulegend]

I wish Benny all the best & I would have loved him to stay but he has to think about his future & if the rumours are true make hay while the sun shines . AFL careers are pretty short in the big picture so players need to make the most of what they have to offer while they are still relevant. Best of luck Benny I will miss you

[spert]

Ben is good bloke but he really has had his chances at the Saints and just hasn't capitalised quickly enough. Good luck to him.

[footynut]

We need to ask for pick 25 & 34, wait for their response.

[IluvHarvey]

I’m convinced Long for Miller

[B.M]

We had the chance to recruit Miller

Did not

[Saintmike65]

If he's going for 600k and who wouldn't given his output and given his age he is worth a late 2nd rounder

Unfortunately, if they are offering him $600K they are looking to pay very little.
At $600K he can walk to the PSD and no one is going to match it so they get him for nothing.

GC won’t let Long drift to the pre season draft, as North are also keen on him.

[SinCitySainter]

If he's going for 600k and who wouldn't given his output and given his age he is worth a late 2nd rounder

Unfortunately, if they are offering him $600K they are looking to pay very little.
At $600K he can walk to the PSD and no one is going to match it so they get him for nothing.

GC won’t let Long drift to the pre season draft, as North are also keen on him.

I agree if he is inexpensive.
However, would they be keen on him at $600K though as that is the numbers being suggested?

[WellardSaint]

It's very sad to see him wanting to leave.

We'll never know the truth- whether the club stuffed him around, or he didn't do enough himself...
He's not happy there.
Being a lot closer to family in NT may be a big factor.
Melbourne to NT could be 2 separate plane flights, and we know how bad flights are now, with planes being cancelled at short notice.
Maybe Brissie to Darwin is a lot easier.
We saw how Ryder was lost without family and needed time off to reconnect.
Long would be similar.


I wish him all the best, and I will watch every Suns game from now on.

[B.M]

Being Sub a shitload of times might be more to do with it


Family has zero to do with it

[WellardSaint]

Being Sub a shitload of times might be more to do with it


Family has zero to do with it

Indigenous folk have a very tight family thing.
You wouldn't get it.

Brissie is much closer to Darwin than Melbourne
Face-Time just won't cut it

[SinCitySainter]

Being Sub a shitload of times might be more to do with it


Family has zero to do with it

Indigenous folk have a very tight family thing.
You wouldn't get it.

Brissie is much closer to Darwin than Melbourne
Face-Time just won't cut it

Direct Flight Brisbane to Darwin is 4hr 30mins.
Direct Flight Melbourne to Darwin is 4hr 30mins.

I don't think being closer to home has anything to do with this move or even that he has been stuffed around by the Saints.
I think the prime motivator is the $500K - $600K that is being suggested he is being offered and who could blame him.

[SaintPav]

I hate the way they develop and manage the players. It’s a pattern too.

Let’s just hope they leverage the situation they got themselves into and don’t stuff that up as well.

[older saint]

Being Sub a shitload of times might be more to do with it


Family has zero to do with it

Indigenous folk have a very tight family thing.
You wouldn't get it.

Brissie is much closer to Darwin than Melbourne
Face-Time just won't cut it

Direct Flight Brisbane to Darwin is 4hr 30mins.
Direct Flight Melbourne to Darwin is 4hr 30mins.

I don't think being closer to home has anything to do with this move or even that he has been stuffed around by the Saints.
I think the prime motivator is the $500K - $600K that is being suggested he is being offered and who could blame him.

And 4 year contract- its a business

[Sanctorum]

Lol. I had a keen interest in Ben Long when he came along in 17 because I'm part Aboriginal.
There were still some older, wiser heads and great leaders in the club and Ben responded immediately.
In his first 30 games he was nominated for the rising star, mark of the year, goal of the year and won acknowledgement as a hard tackler, had obvious pace and skill and he attacked the ball fiercely, bringing others into the game as a defensive small forward with slick handball and he was very accurate by foot.
So, after 30 outings he was rewarded with a 3 year extension based on 21.15 in front of goal, averaging 10d, 3m, 3tk in a team that won 9 of those games.
Despite us having HB's coming out of our clackers, in 2020, it was decided he would go to half back to sit off the play and rebound, fill gaps, chase and tackle and generally waste his mercurial talents, being accountable for an opponent. He wasn't put there because his form was disappointing and he did a good job but because our list and drafting was pathetic, he was charged with fixing a deficiency at 21 after 30 games. He'd spent the last 4 years developing as a forward? But no. We haven't f***ed him around at all.

I accept what you say CQS, you obviously have a lot closer connection to the club than me. If what you say is correct that Ben was frustrated with a role in defence, it would surprise me that he was unable to convince the coaches to allow him to continue to play his natural style in attack, because he has certainly demonstrated his strong intensity on the ball. For example, at training, and on the occasions when he was dropped to the reserves, did he not emphasise that playing forward was his forte? It also begs the question, why did he wait until his last game, where he played from HBF, to show his real class because he certainly had a blinder? In modern day football, players in Long's category are regularly asked to play either HFF, wing or HBF. It is ironic that Jack Sinclair has become the club's best player this year from HBF!

On the other side of the coin, if Ben Long was indeed unhappy at the way he was treated at Moorabbin and wanting to leave, maybe that also applies to another indigenous player, Bradley Hill, who has failed to play his best footy at St Kilda and has been reported as seeking to play elsewhere - that's entirely possible, and if correct raises serious questions about the club's selection strategies.

[B.M]

Played his best footy off HB

Like all players put there, played his worst footy as a defensive forward

[CURLY]

Ben Long for Jack Bowes seems fair.

[CQ SAINT]

Lol. I had a keen interest in Ben Long when he came along in 17 because I'm part Aboriginal.
There were still some older, wiser heads and great leaders in the club and Ben responded immediately.
In his first 30 games he was nominated for the rising star, mark of the year, goal of the year and won acknowledgement as a hard tackler, had obvious pace and skill and he attacked the ball fiercely, bringing others into the game as a defensive small forward with slick handball and he was very accurate by foot.
So, after 30 outings he was rewarded with a 3 year extension based on 21.15 in front of goal, averaging 10d, 3m, 3tk in a team that won 9 of those games.
Despite us having HB's coming out of our clackers, in 2020, it was decided he would go to half back to sit off the play and rebound, fill gaps, chase and tackle and generally waste his mercurial talents, being accountable for an opponent. He wasn't put there because his form was disappointing and he did a good job but because our list and drafting was pathetic, he was charged with fixing a deficiency at 21 after 30 games. He'd spent the last 4 years developing as a forward? But no. We haven't f***ed him around at all.

I accept what you say CQS, you obviously have a lot closer connection to the club than me. If what you say is correct that Ben was frustrated with a role in defence, it would surprise me that he was unable to convince the coaches to allow him to continue to play his natural style in attack, because he has certainly demonstrated his strong intensity on the ball. For example, at training, and on the occasions when he was dropped to the reserves, did he not emphasise that playing forward was his forte? It also begs the question, why did he wait until his last game, where he played from HBF, to show his real class because he certainly had a blinder? In modern day football, players in Long's category are regularly asked to play either HFF, wing or HBF. It is ironic that Jack Sinclair has become the club's best player this year from HBF!

On the other side of the coin, if Ben Long was indeed unhappy at the way he was treated at Moorabbin and wanting to leave, maybe that also applies to another indigenous player, Bradley Hill, who has failed to play his best footy at St Kilda and has been reported as seeking to play elsewhere - that's entirely possible, and if correct raises serious questions about the club's selection strategies.

Long turned down a big offer at Essendon, while he was an injured small forward, and accepted 3 years with us. That has come to an end. Jack Lonie waited till the last minute for a short extension and was serviceable as a small forward, but for mine, not in Long or Higgins's class. He was a trier.
In 2020, we experimented with Hanners as a mid/forward, Geary as a defensive forward Battle was played forward, back and mid. Coffield was playing well at half back. Long was earmarked to replace Shane Savage but the form of Butler in his first year warranted putting Ben at hb and he did a reasonable job but for me he was a fwd.

Meanwhile, Jack Higgins was having a star studded start to his career at Richmond but longed to be at St.Kilda. Once he entered, we decided 3 small forwards was a good idea but Long was being pushed out of the pecking order.

My guess is, Ratten just doesn't rate him that highly.
I'm told he will be played at HB at the GCS if he goes there, but I dont think so.
Clarko has expressed interest. He sees something. I'm assuming he sees a mid/forward. He and Zuurhar would be exciting in the same half.

[MC Gusto]

Jack Bowes would be a solid upgrade

[D.B.Cooper]

Ben Long for Jack Bowes seems fair.

Would take that trade in a heart beat, we need good ball users.

Ben plus our second & third round pick for Hollands?
They’d want higher that our second.

Fiorini, no way, Matt Crouch is a similar but better player and will come cheaper.

[D.B.Cooper]

My opinion- Long definitely gets to GC and was recruited with the promise of being played at half back.

I know GC rate Ben but my personal opinion is Ratts doesn’t rate him very highly.

[WellardSaint]

I hate the way they develop and manage the players. It’s a pattern too.

Let’s just hope they leverage the situation they got themselves into and don’t stuff that up as well.

Tony Brown is Player Development Manager according to Wikipedia.

Been there since late 2011.

What's going on at the club FFS

[Impatient Sainter]

Jack Bowes would be a solid upgrade

I dont know about an upgrade as Long could play a number of roles. Bowes would be another midfield option at least as some feel he has plenty of room for improvement given the opportunity to play midfield minutes.

But knowing St Kilda they would probably try and play him as a back pocket.