McCartin and Hickey

[SAINT-LEE]

Lyon was a leadership & strategy relationship mentor...

More BS

A lot of his coaching was Lyon regurgitating the words of those who were his mentors

Correct me if I’m wrong but he was an assistant under Lethal Leigh, Dennis Pagan, Kevin Sheedy and also Paul Roos influence rubbed off on him

Precisely spoken!

Lyon was fortunate to have the culture of these mentors rub off on him. He certainly isn't my favourite coach but he definitely benefited from the cultures he was immersed in...I reckon it significantly improved his ability.

[takeaway]

Lyon was a leadership & strategy relationship mentor...

More BS

A lot of his coaching was Lyon regurgitating the words of those who were his mentors

Correct me if I’m wrong but he was an assistant under Lethal Leigh, Dennis Pagan, Kevin Sheedy and also Paul Roos influence rubbed off on him

Of course Ross was influenced by experienced coaches at the time. That's how the system works isn't it? He used his experience working with senior coaches and added his own methods to achieve a winning culture at the Saints.

He was actually assistant under Walls, Parkin, Brittain, Pagan & Roos. He certainly would have learnt a lot off them, and used it to achieve the best win/loss record of any Saints coach.

However, I don't want to get into another Lyon debate, as you obviously have shoved Ross into a pigeon hole and no amount of sensible argument or facts will prise him out.

[Scollop]

Yeah but Lyon is different to a lot of them. They won premierships as coaches, so really…

He shoved himself into a hole. I didn’t!

[takeaway]

Yeah but Lyon is different to a lot of them. They won premierships as coaches, so really…

He shoved himself into a hole. I didn’t!

Strange that AFL Clubs are still seeking his services then, don't you think? Perhaps they haven't pigeon holed him like your good self?

[Scollop]

He’s still alive….and as long as he’s under retirement age he’ll probably continue to be considered. Especially with so many friends and admirers working in the media pushing his barrow for him

I think he’s seriously doubting whether he’s got what it takes to enter the arena again. Rosscoe may have gone a bit soft in his old age. He’s not creative enough to take a team from mid table to the pinnacle. Freo were in a prelim with their young squad before he arrived. Saints had played off in TWO consecutive prelims before he arrived.

[Shaggy]

Blake played almost entirely on a Wing or at HF whilst at StK

Cameo’s in the ruck when we had few alternatives

His output improvement is most likely to do with increased experience

He is about a 130 game player now

Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story though

BTW
Don’t read too much into listed heights

If Silvagni is 1cm taller than Nick Riewoldt and the same as Jono Brown and Barry Hall - I’ll eat my shorts!!!

Truth?

You said "I reckon Acres went to a dozen ruck contests in his time at StK", the truth is he had 45 hitouts in his time at St Kilda.

You then claimed many teams successfully use mids/wingers in the ruck, and proceeded to list 2 forward/rucks and 2 mids who collectively had 2 HO between them as your examples.

Since the 'third man up' was outlawed, Billings, Clark, Crouch, Gresham, Hannebery, Hill, Jones, Long, DMac, Sinclair, Ross, Steele, Dunstan, Newnes, Steven, Armo, Savage and Stevens collectively have had 5 Hitouts. Rightly so.

The truth is Acres was not good in the ruck, and St Kilda was not good having Acres play in the ruck. Having to regularly wrestle/clash with much bigger opponents was not beneficial to Acres' game, shown by the fact he was consistently in and out of the team.

The truth is Acres is best suited as a permanent mid/winger, as he's proving with Freo right now, many could see his potential in this area while with us, except a few higher ups at St Kilda it would seem.

The truth is I'm presenting you with stats and data and you're responding with feelings and hunches.


But the whole point originally was, in recent years a number of players have left St Kilda and gone on to thrive in successful teams, do you not find this concerning that we weren't able to extract the best out of them, especially when the potential was there for many to see?

You have deliberately ignored that Acres had 10 hitouts for Freemantle last year. I like Acres but he is not a point of difference. None of the players whom left Saints in recent times are: Acres, Hinds, Newnes, Parker, Dunstan.

[B.M]

Always ignore stats that don’t help your argument!

Let’s nut into the stats a bit deeper?!

0 HOs in 3 games
10HOs in 7 games (3rd man up rule in play)
14HOs in 16 games (3rd man up rule in play)
2 HOs in 18 games
10 HOs in 12 games
9 HOs in 19 games

75 games
45 Hit Outs

0.65 per game

Doesn’t exactly scream ‘second ruck’ does it

It suggest the odd pitch hit

[Scollop]

Yeah…So you’re saying we should park aside Alan Richardson’s win-loss record of 33% ….and park aside the woeful development of draftees during his time….and park aside his treatment of Hickey and park aside that he ridiculed his players by saying they lacked leadership

…and park aside that he backed Lethlean to go and recruit Hannebery

You’re basically telling us Cho made the right decisions regarding Acres.

We need to park aside that Cho had Acres rucking every now and then… you think it was good for his development as a wingman

[The_Dud]

Blake played almost entirely on a Wing or at HF whilst at StK

Cameo’s in the ruck when we had few alternatives

His output improvement is most likely to do with increased experience

He is about a 130 game player now

Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story though

BTW
Don’t read too much into listed heights

If Silvagni is 1cm taller than Nick Riewoldt and the same as Jono Brown and Barry Hall - I’ll eat my shorts!!!

Truth?

You said "I reckon Acres went to a dozen ruck contests in his time at StK", the truth is he had 45 hitouts in his time at St Kilda.

You then claimed many teams successfully use mids/wingers in the ruck, and proceeded to list 2 forward/rucks and 2 mids who collectively had 2 HO between them as your examples.

Since the 'third man up' was outlawed, Billings, Clark, Crouch, Gresham, Hannebery, Hill, Jones, Long, DMac, Sinclair, Ross, Steele, Dunstan, Newnes, Steven, Armo, Savage and Stevens collectively have had 5 Hitouts. Rightly so.

The truth is Acres was not good in the ruck, and St Kilda was not good having Acres play in the ruck. Having to regularly wrestle/clash with much bigger opponents was not beneficial to Acres' game, shown by the fact he was consistently in and out of the team.

The truth is Acres is best suited as a permanent mid/winger, as he's proving with Freo right now, many could see his potential in this area while with us, except a few higher ups at St Kilda it would seem.

The truth is I'm presenting you with stats and data and you're responding with feelings and hunches.


But the whole point originally was, in recent years a number of players have left St Kilda and gone on to thrive in successful teams, do you not find this concerning that we weren't able to extract the best out of them, especially when the potential was there for many to see?

You have deliberately ignored that Acres had 10 hitouts for Freemantle last year. I like Acres but he is not a point of difference. None of the players whom left Saints in recent times are: Acres, Hinds, Newnes, Parker, Dunstan.

And how did Acres 2021 season stack up to his other 2 at Freo? Seems some coaches learn quicker than others.

Who has had a better 3 years, Acres or Hill?

[The_Dud]

Always ignore stats that don’t help your argument!

Let’s nut into the stats a bit deeper?!

0 HOs in 3 games
10HOs in 7 games (3rd man up rule in play)
14HOs in 16 games (3rd man up rule in play)
2 HOs in 18 games
10 HOs in 12 games
9 HOs in 19 games

75 games
45 Hit Outs

0.65 per game

Doesn’t exactly scream ‘second ruck’ does it

It suggest the odd pitch hit

How many ruck contests would Acres win? 1 in 4? 1 in 6? 1 in 10?

Do you think Acres is good in the ruck? Though you somehow only saw him do it a dozen times so might not be much of a sample size…

45 HO is not a lot for a ruckman, but it’s close to 45 too many for a midfielder.

When the number should be zero, 200+ (400?) ruck contests is an astronomical amount in comparison.

Do you think all young developing mids/wingers should regularly play in the ruck?

[B.M]

Shaun Grigg did?

He’s a 190 mid

Backing up in the ruck wouldn’t kill him, nor did it!

I’ll say it again

He played the majority of his footy at StK as a Wing/HF

[The_Dud]

Shaun Grigg did?

He’s a 190 mid

Backing up in the ruck wouldn’t kill him, nor did it!

I’ll say it again

He played the majority of his footy at StK as a Wing/HF

Grigg was an outlier who was successful in that role in a successful team.

Acres was never successful in that role in a poor team.

Yes Acres did play Wing/HF (while regularly attending ruck contests) for us, when he should have been mid/wing and zero ruck contests.

That’s the whole point, we didn’t utilise his talents.

[Scollop]

Hickey is and always was a very good ruckman.

Paddy is currently an ok backman, nothing special, looks good third man up (as many do) but otherwise no big loss.

Somebody else said Tom Mc and Blakey give Paddy a chop-out to cover him.
That's the Swans' system and player development.
I wonder if Paddy were still with us, would he fit into our new revitalised backline, supervised by the Assistant Coach of the year, Boris Enright?
Howard, Wilkie, Paton, Battle, Webster, Sinclair- who would Paddy displace?
Webster isn't as good as he used to be...but Paddy's not suited to his spot. And Battle does a lot more than Paddy ever could

On a side note, I would like to see Tom Highmore get more senior games. He is being held back by the poor development standards at Sandy.

I agree we can cover the position down back without Paddy McCartin. Both Tom Highmore and Josh Battle are very good defenders.

They have great agility, good below the knees on loose ground balls and can also intercept as well as Paddy in my opinion.

Both have their strengths but they're both average field kicks and can't hit a target with precision as well or as often as Paddy McCartin does.

Paddy has been elite with his kicking efficiency this year

Bump ...Grand Finalists ... I would have felt worse I suppose if Collingwood got in...at least now Sydney might beat the arrogant Hillbillies

Here's a lovely photo of Hickey and Paddy to make us all feel s***.

https://resources.afl.com.au/photo-reso ... height=592

[axcellence]

Lyon was similar in some respects to Clarkson when they came in a senior coach. Clarkson was heavily criticised in his early days at the Hawks when he started implementing a fast chip-around precision disposal game, and some even wanted him sacked as coach back then. As he went on the Hawks became very efficient and well-drilled in the game plan which he then developed further.

Lyon brought in a definite style of game, and everyone had to play that style of game, a lot of which was defensive setups off the ball at the expense of kicking large scores. We did become a very disciplined and well-drilled team, and don't forget NDS and Milne were dropped for not doing the off the ball stuff, but then once it evolved, then attacking side of the game was developed. We got close, but the game plan was a bit one-dimensional, and got picked apart eventually.

Richo and Ratts seemed to try and mix up various styles, and in the end not good at any and with lacklustre coaching, just saw us became, and will continue to be a middle of the rung team unless some drastic changes are made. The confusion amongst the playing group on-field is obvious.

Paul Roos kept endorsing Longmire over Lyon and the saints ended up choosing Lyon. Now Longmire has won a premiership as a coach and off to another GF and Lyon is in the media giving excuses about not being a coach anymore.

[Vortex]

Paddy will be an inspiration to so many people in GF week especially those with kids with type 1 diabetes.

He will have so much support leading into this week.

Paddy has a chance to go one up in the Trout cup because a real cup is much greater than Petracca's Covid Cup in front of a packed MCG.

[desertsaint]

swans are a good measure of what you want a club to be.
should also serve notice it's not our mediocre playing stock that is the main problem, it's our poor development and coaching.

[desertsaint]

wrapped for paddy and hickey - let's hope the best team all year - the swans - go on with it.
six and zero against top four opposition. incredible year.

[samuraisaint]

Lyon was a leadership & strategy relationship mentor...

More BS

A lot of his coaching was Lyon regurgitating the words of those who were his mentors

Correct me if I’m wrong but he was an assistant under Lethal Leigh, Dennis Pagan, Kevin Sheedy and also Paul Roos influence rubbed off on him

Of course Ross was influenced by experienced coaches at the time. That's how the system works isn't it? He used his experience working with senior coaches and added his own methods to achieve a winning culture at the Saints.

He was actually assistant under Walls, Parkin, Brittain, Pagan & Roos. He certainly would have learnt a lot off them, and used it to achieve the best win/loss record of any Saints coach.

However, I don't want to get into another Lyon debate, as you obviously have shoved Ross into a pigeon hole and no amount of sensible argument or facts will prise him out.

Don't want to sound disingenuous here, but our best eras competitively were actually 1965-1973 and 2004-2006 when we won more games than any other team.

[samuraisaint]

swans are a good measure of what you want a club to be.
should also serve notice it's not our mediocre playing stock that is the main problem, it's our poor development and coaching.

Been saying it for years - ditch the Sandy alignment. It is an absolute farce. Plus, why develop Moorabbin and play our reserves side at a ground which is worse than the Brighton Grammarians one up the road.

[samuraisaint]

wrapped for paddy and hickey - let's hope the best team all year - the swans - go on with it.
six and zero against top four opposition. incredible year.

If Hickey salutes next week, it is going to highlight, or lowlight, some of the p1sspoor coaching he received with us under the previous coaching administration with us, isn't it?
If he stands up again - after being excellent in the first half yesterday, serious questions about our player development must be highlighted.

[Scollop]

Paddy has a chance to go one up in the Trout cup …

I know you are talking about down playing 2020, but everyone was competing on equal terms and history is littered with changes and variations to the rules, but a premiership is a premiership. We were probably the best team in the 1991 finals series but we got knocked out because of a stupid finals system.

Can you please not mention that Essendon pricks name again here on the forum. Fact is we wasted our number 1 draft pick. Simple as that…AND I don’t think that because we shoud have chosen Petracca or someone else…but because stats for Paddy’s first few years were horrid.

He was selected as a KP Forward but he wasn’t even as good as Tim Membrey. They were competing for a spot in the forward line and before Paddy had his final concussion we were getting much better value from Membrey. I checked footy wire for their comparative averages including goals for each of 2016, 2017 and 2018.

You can compare the two for each year. Don't think about using injuries as an excuse for his fitness or for his output. When he was selected and at the start of each game he didn’t have concussion

I understand Tim is a little older so I did a comparison of their stats for a few years into their careers. Paddy was 22 in 2018. Tim was 22 years of age in 2016. Tim was originally chosen by the Swans as a 3rd rounder at pick# 46 and we picked him up for nothing as a delisted free agent.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2018

[B.M]

Hickey has matured into an OK ruckman - he is 31 now

Although he played some good games at StK he wasn’t nearly as good as he is now.

[Scollop]

So of course, you had every reason to hang as much s*** on him at the time as you did

And Cho had every reason to drive him out of the club

[The_Dud]

Hickey has matured into an OK ruckman - he is 31 now

Although he played some good games at StK he wasn’t nearly as good as he is now.

That’s because he wasn’t given the chance to reach his potential at St Kilda

[D.B.Cooper]

Would be wrapt for Hickledik & Paddy.
Prefer the Swans over Geelong.

But they did bend us over with Hannebery & Jones.
Not a fan of Buddy.

Still prefer them over Danger, Hawkins, Selwood & Cameron.