McCartin and Hickey

[samuraisaint]

Hickey is and always was a very good ruckman.

Paddy is currently an ok backman, nothing special, looks good third man up (as many do) but otherwise no big loss.

Somebody else said Tom Mc and Blakey give Paddy a chop-out to cover him.
That's the Swans' system and player development.
I wonder if Paddy were still with us, would he fit into our new revitalised backline, supervised by the Assistant Coach of the year, Boris Enright?
Howard, Wilkie, Paton, Battle, Webster, Sinclair- who would Paddy displace?
Webster isn't as good as he used to be...but Paddy's not suited to his spot. And Battle does a lot more than Paddy ever could

On a side note, I would like to see Tom Highmore get more senior games. He is being held back by the poor development standards at Sandy.

[The_Dud]

Add Acres to the list of players we butchered then threw away

I don’t think he had even one ruck contest last night!

[B.M]

I reckon Acres went to a dozen ruck contests in his time at StK

It’s a ploy a lot of clubs use

The Dogs, Blues, Geelong, Richmond

Have all used small back up options in the ruck. Not sure it has any effect on player development.

Acres generally plays the exact same position at Freo as he did with StK
Wing

[The_Dud]

I reckon Acres went to a dozen ruck contests in his time at StK

It’s a ploy a lot of clubs use

The Dogs, Blues, Geelong, Richmond

Have all used small back up options in the ruck. Not sure it has any effect on player development.

Acres generally plays the exact same position at Freo as he did with StK
Wing

Acres had 45 hitouts during his time at St Kilda, which would mean he contested what, at least 200 ruck contests?

He’s had zero hitouts this year at Freo.

[skeptic]

Add Acres to the list of players we butchered then threw away

I don’t think he had even one ruck contest last night!

I really wonder what it takes to convince some ppl that a coach was poor…

Horrible results over 5 years… ok, could have been the list

Inability to recruit the type of players you need… ok, who wants to go to a lowly club like the Saints

Players that you don’t rate, that perform poorly under you and are cast off excel elsewhere… sure it happens

The players that seem terrible that you insist on persevering with remain mediocre list cloggers even under the coach that replaces you and are delisted… uhhhhh ok

Under the next coach’s regimen… the club immediately recruits a whole raft of players that are much more in with the needs of the list… this is is getting hard now

But… it pbly wasn’t the coach, it’s the players

[Scollop]

Hickey is and always was a very good ruckman.

Paddy is currently an ok backman, nothing special, looks good third man up (as many do) but otherwise no big loss.

Somebody else said Tom Mc and Blakey give Paddy a chop-out to cover him.
That's the Swans' system and player development.
I wonder if Paddy were still with us, would he fit into our new revitalised backline, supervised by the Assistant Coach of the year, Boris Enright?
Howard, Wilkie, Paton, Battle, Webster, Sinclair- who would Paddy displace?
Webster isn't as good as he used to be...but Paddy's not suited to his spot. And Battle does a lot more than Paddy ever could

On a side note, I would like to see Tom Highmore get more senior games. He is being held back by the poor development standards at Sandy.

I agree we can cover the position down back without Paddy McCartin. Both Tom Highmore and Josh Battle are very good defenders.

They have great agility, good below the knees on loose ground balls and can also intercept as well as Paddy in my opinion.

Both have their strengths but they're both average field kicks and can't hit a target with precision as well or as often as Paddy McCartin does.

Paddy has been elite with his kicking efficiency this year

[spert]

Hickey is and always was a very good ruckman.

Paddy is currently an ok backman, nothing special, looks good third man up (as many do) but otherwise no big loss.

Somebody else said Tom Mc and Blakey give Paddy a chop-out to cover him.
That's the Swans' system and player development.
I wonder if Paddy were still with us, would he fit into our new revitalised backline, supervised by the Assistant Coach of the year, Boris Enright?
Howard, Wilkie, Paton, Battle, Webster, Sinclair- who would Paddy displace?
Webster isn't as good as he used to be...but Paddy's not suited to his spot. And Battle does a lot more than Paddy ever could

On a side note, I would like to see Tom Highmore get more senior games. He is being held back by the poor development standards at Sandy.

I agree we can cover the position down back without Paddy McCartin. Both Tom Highmore and Josh Battle are very good defenders.

They have great agility, good below the knees on loose ground balls and can also intercept as well as Paddy in my opinion.

Both have their strengths but they're both average field kicks and can't hit a target with precision as well or as often as Paddy McCartin does.

Paddy has been elite with his kicking efficiency this year

Paddy's strength this year has been his intercept marking and good judgment- definitely not putting his head into clash marking contests. Highmore is an excellent intercept marking type who Ratts and co seem to be trying to dismantle. Battle and Highmore are excellent kicks, but over the last two years like so many in our team, the skills seem to be deteriorating.

[B.M]

How many times was acres 3rd man up?

Nick Riewoldt got hit outs

Don’t remember him in the ruck

Btw
If Acres got 45 hit outs - not bad

[older saint]

To be fair while Richo preferred Longer over HIckey, i vividly remember Hickey's game against Essendon which was probably the worst game of footy i have seen a ruckman play since Barry Brooks v Port in Tasmania. He went to Wc and did nothing.
Perhaps he is a late developer , he appears to be a different cat , perhaps he is a late maturer, whatever it is based on what he showed the correct decision was made to move him on.

McCartin is a different one. I recall many, yours truly included, floated the idea here of CHB as less likely to take hits and read the ball well. Richo and those around him were determine to only use hi forward as they were sold on proving he was the corrcet pick over Pettraca. IN the end with all the concussions he needed to get away from footy and get a fresh start elsewhere.
Also freed up the medical staff to move on to Hannebery as our next project!

[The_Dud]

How many times was acres 3rd man up?

Nick Riewoldt got hit outs

Don’t remember him in the ruck

Btw
If Acres got 45 hit outs - not bad

The '3rd man up' was banned at the end of 2016.

Is it that hard to acknowledge Acres might not have been utilised the best at St Kilda?

[B.M]

He was used as a Winger mostly

Or as a medium forward


200 ruck contests you say?

In 75 games that equates to 2.7 per game

Hardly what I consider a ruckman?!

[The_Dud]

He was used as a Winger mostly

Or as a medium forward


200 ruck contests you say?

In 75 games that equates to 2.7 per game

Hardly what I consider a ruckman?!

200 is a conservative estimate.

It’s a lot more than 12 which you were pretty confident with.

And it’s also a lot more than 0, which is the number it should have been.

I’d love for you to list other top wingers who regularly provide a chop out in the ruck.

How many ruck contests would you say Hill has contested in his career?

[B.M]

Richmond
Shaun Grigg/Marlon Pickett
Western Bulldogs
Josh Dunkley
Carlton
Jack Silvagni
Port Adelaide
Jeremy Finlayson


That’s just off the top of my head?

[The_Dud]

Richmond
Shaun Grigg/Marlon Pickett
Western Bulldogs
Josh Dunkley
Carlton
Jack Silvagni
Port Adelaide
Jeremy Finlayson


That’s just off the top of my head?

Dunkley and Pickett have 2 hitouts between them this year.

Silvangi is a 194cm forward.

Finlayson is a 197cm ruck/forward.

Acres is a 189cm mid/wing.

He was totally misused during his time at St Kilda, the fact he is currently in career best form at Freo shows this.

Hill being in career worst form after coming from Freo to us is also damning.

[SAINT-LEE]

West Coast & St Kilda could certainly do with the current incarnation of Hickey. Hickey, quite rightly, cracked it with St Kilda but to be fair he didn't do himself alot of favours as proven by his stint at the Eagles.

Kudos to Sydney and their system, that's the real shining light.

In terms of Paddy, to claim he was the right pick at #1 on the back of now playing as a defender is rewriting history. Again, kudos to Sydney and their recruitment of his brother Tom who was probably the only reason Paddy got a look in. There were 16 other clubs who had the opportunity to trial Paddy but failed.

A great story!

Neither player, during their time at St Kilda looked like the players of 2022. That's not St Kilda, that's Sydney and the players themselves.

Along with my rants, " this coach [ insert any StK Coach or assistant] is sh1te", " this player [ insert 75% of our playing list ] is sh1te" ....your post is spot on...so begins my never ending drum banging, soap boxing of the NUMBER 1 indicator as found in many research articles...CULTURE IS KING.

We failed? It's our culture that's the issue. Yes, it can be staff and players causing culture rifts but the club overall sets a standard and works to ensure that culture wins in every situation.

We haven't had an appropriate culture since Ross the Boss left.

[Scollop]

We haven't had an appropriate culture since Ross the Boss left.

BS!

Ross inherited a playing list that was built on solid foundations from the leadership of men that wanted to change the culture of St Kilda FC. That goes back to Jezza, Sheldon, Alves and Thomas. How did Ross change the culture?

What was his legacy?

Did he teach leadership and instil multiple leaders? Did he value ALL players on a list and embrace player development?

He was a selfish prick and he taught selfishness. He divided the players between the chosen ones and the forgotten ones

I’m not arguing the merits of his preparation of his first 22 or his game day coaching, so let’s not go down that path…it’s been done to death over the years. Just search for “Lyon” in this fan forum for the differing opinions if you want to discuss whether he could coach

[spert]

Lyon was similar in some respects to Clarkson when they came in a senior coach. Clarkson was heavily criticised in his early days at the Hawks when he started implementing a fast chip-around precision disposal game, and some even wanted him sacked as coach back then. As he went on the Hawks became very efficient and well-drilled in the game plan which he then developed further.

Lyon brought in a definite style of game, and everyone had to play that style of game, a lot of which was defensive setups off the ball at the expense of kicking large scores. We did become a very disciplined and well-drilled team, and don't forget NDS and Milne were dropped for not doing the off the ball stuff, but then once it evolved, then attacking side of the game was developed. We got close, but the game plan was a bit one-dimensional, and got picked apart eventually.

Richo and Ratts seemed to try and mix up various styles, and in the end not good at any and with lacklustre coaching, just saw us became, and will continue to be a middle of the rung team unless some drastic changes are made. The confusion amongst the playing group on-field is obvious.

[magnifisaint]

Yes just ask Dougal!

[B.M]

Blake played almost entirely on a Wing or at HF whilst at StK

Cameo’s in the ruck when we had few alternatives

His output improvement is most likely to do with increased experience

He is about a 130 game player now

Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story though

BTW
Don’t read too much into listed heights

If Silvagni is 1cm taller than Nick Riewoldt and the same as Jono Brown and Barry Hall - I’ll eat my shorts!!!

[repta]

Paddy was too fat at skilda. Never got fit.

At least one thing is now proven. Sydney's medical and conditioning staff are better than stkildas ... hannebury..

Always liked Hickey. Couldn't work out why we let him go. We have a history of letting good rucks go. Marshall will be next.

Hickey was average ruck. Good around the ground. Has improved ruck work with maturity.

[magnifisaint]

Paddy was too fat at skilda. Never got fit.

At least one thing is now proven. Sydney's medical and conditioning staff are better than stkildas ... hannebury..

Always liked Hickey. Couldn't work out why we let him go. We have a history of letting good rucks go. Marshall will be next.

Hickey was average ruck. Good around the ground. Has improved ruck work with maturity.

Hindsight Harry post.

[SAINT-LEE]

We haven't had an appropriate culture since Ross the Boss left.

BS!

Ross inherited a playing list that was built on solid foundations from the leadership of men that wanted to change the culture of St Kilda FC. That goes back to Jezza, Sheldon, Alves and Thomas. How did Ross change the culture?

What was his legacy?

Did he teach leadership and instil multiple leaders? Did he value ALL players on a list and embrace player development?

He was a selfish prick and he taught selfishness. He divided the players between the chosen ones and the forgotten ones

I’m not arguing the merits of his preparation of his first 22 or his game day coaching, so let’s not go down that path…it’s been done to death over the years. Just search for “Lyon” in this fan forum for the differing opinions if you want to discuss whether he could coach

Firstly, I said we haven't had the appropriate culture is Lyons. Those before him weren't included only those after.

I have first hand witnessed the powerful impact Grant Thomas had as a relationship first coach. His players loved him. Not going to argue what I experienced first hand in his home.

Secondly, Lyon DID drop into a diamond mine that had already started producing. However, he was expert as well in relationship player building.

But Lyon was a leadership & strategy relationship mentor...Thomas was just really genuine & kind ( yep, it's actually ridiculous how gentle the guy is with people one on one) relationship 'dad'.

Was Thomas a dick? Bingo
Was Lyon a dick? Yep a diddle do

But culture...that's the nugget worth mining...I've seen it change entire lives, bad situations, turn elections, even alter outcomes in wars.

It's how the underdog, the downtrodden, the afls bastard can rise again.


Defining of Culture

“The act of, or any labor or means employed for, training, disciplining, or refining the moral and intellectual nature of man; as, the culture of the mind.” also “The state of being cultivated; result of cultivation; physical improvement; enlightenment and discipline acquired by mental and moral training; civilization; refinement in manners and taste.”

Here’s how it works: A culture is the sum total of the actual beliefs of your society. It is the “cult” of where you live. (CULT defined: any common body of believers) .
Culture is born out of the thoughts and opinions of your family/town/region/state/country/ethnicity/ race/gender, history, industry, politics, media, arts, education, and religion. These factors combine to influence your thinking, as you constantly interact with what is happening on the news, in music, at work, and among your peers. What my, your...our Culture values, and finds acceptable or praiseworthy, will invariably bleed into what each one of us values, accepts, protects and praises.


The culture of a club defines the very essence. It may not be written but it will pervade and dictate the entire club from CEO to janitor.


Can a player be great without character or a strong culture, 100%. But a club as a whole can't be great long term.


Ask some of the clubs that have embedded the Character First program into the clubs....like Geelong Cats or New England Patriots, Real Madrid, University of Tennessee Volunteers, Golden State Warriors....regular winners since culture became king....


People misunderstand culture and its foundations ( character).

Culture doesn't say a player must be perfect ( modern english definition: without fault) but perfect (true etymology: mature)

A club with healthy culture:
Example...a player stuffs up...could be inappropriate sexualising, racial, financial, ethical stuff, maybe violence or misuse of substances....

He's not perfect ( without fault) but his club culture, that he's bought into, has supported his journey to maturity. So...he realises he's got an issue, the club immediately works intimately with player...the player seeks to understand what happened, who is responsible and if themselves, work for resolution. They feel confident the club supports their journey not focusses on mistakes.

This is the same on field as its a club wide culture. A player has a poor game, it's a journey of discovery with real measurable steps to take to improve.

Lyons nay have been a dick but culture doesn't demand you be dickless just mature and willing to grow. If we can score a perfectly lovable human AND a legendary culture king with great footy strategy skills...well...that'd be swell.

But for now I'll take a culture driven coach even if he's a prick ( ala Alastair or Scott)

We lack culture. Badly.

[skeptic]

I reckon there’s something to that Saintlee…

The teams under GT/RL had many players that whilst incredibly talented… were really really driven individuals and the environment had a buzz about of this group of players wants nothing less than multiple flags and will stop at nothing go get them

Players whose careers stagnated Ala Jones, Gehrig, Dawson, Gardiner seemed to get back on track and players that weren’t committed to being there best e.g. Capuano, Lawrence, Black, Schwartz etc we’re moved on pretty quick.

It seems to me that we have a lot of players on the list that haven’t reached elite fitness for quite a while (5+ years in some cases)… and the reasoning of we’re simply not good enough has simply crept in as an easy excuse to all of our problems.
We never draft good players, all our trades are terrible, players that are good become bad but that’s on them because they’re suddenly lazy, players with elite disposal get worse because they were always terrible etc

I do agree with you that I don’t think the culture is where it needs to be

[Scollop]

Lyon was a leadership & strategy relationship mentor...

More BS

A lot of his coaching was Lyon regurgitating the words of those who were his mentors

Correct me if I’m wrong but he was an assistant under Lethal Leigh, Dennis Pagan, Kevin Sheedy and also Paul Roos influence rubbed off on him

[The_Dud]

Blake played almost entirely on a Wing or at HF whilst at StK

Cameo’s in the ruck when we had few alternatives

His output improvement is most likely to do with increased experience

He is about a 130 game player now

Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story though

BTW
Don’t read too much into listed heights

If Silvagni is 1cm taller than Nick Riewoldt and the same as Jono Brown and Barry Hall - I’ll eat my shorts!!!

Truth?

You said "I reckon Acres went to a dozen ruck contests in his time at StK", the truth is he had 45 hitouts in his time at St Kilda.

You then claimed many teams successfully use mids/wingers in the ruck, and proceeded to list 2 forward/rucks and 2 mids who collectively had 2 HO between them as your examples.

Since the 'third man up' was outlawed, Billings, Clark, Crouch, Gresham, Hannebery, Hill, Jones, Long, DMac, Sinclair, Ross, Steele, Dunstan, Newnes, Steven, Armo, Savage and Stevens collectively have had 5 Hitouts. Rightly so.

The truth is Acres was not good in the ruck, and St Kilda was not good having Acres play in the ruck. Having to regularly wrestle/clash with much bigger opponents was not beneficial to Acres' game, shown by the fact he was consistently in and out of the team.

The truth is Acres is best suited as a permanent mid/winger, as he's proving with Freo right now, many could see his potential in this area while with us, except a few higher ups at St Kilda it would seem.

The truth is I'm presenting you with stats and data and you're responding with feelings and hunches.


But the whole point originally was, in recent years a number of players have left St Kilda and gone on to thrive in successful teams, do you not find this concerning that we weren't able to extract the best out of them, especially when the potential was there for many to see?