Core Group of Players

[repta]

Saints should look at list and work out when to have a crack.

It is not next year.

They can't trade out their future guns.
They need experience

They have good access to players through the academy. Use crouch Ross etc to teach these players coming through.
Build a high performing base.
Loyalty to stars
Become a destination club. Become not build. There is a difference.
Would Geelong trade Gresham? Not likely.
Unless he is requesting stupid money.

[Scollop]

I'm not interested in our core group of players....what I'm really fascinated by is;

How many list managers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

[groupie1]

Connolly untouchable?

He’s a chance to be delisted!

He's about the best kick on the list
He's fast
He loves a contest
He'd form a great HB partnership with Sincs

[Vortex]

Connolly untouchable?

He’s a chance to be delisted!

He's about the best kick on the list
He's fast
He loves a contest
He'd form a great HB partnership with Sincs

Sharman is a great kick for goal, doesn't mean he's going to make it as an AFL footballer. You need more than one trick. Connolly is a VFL player at best and hasn't shown anything that I can see to suggest he can make it AFL level.

[Yorkeys]

Connolly untouchable?

He’s a chance to be delisted!

He's about the best kick on the list
He's fast
He loves a contest
He'd form a great HB partnership with Sincs

Sharman is a great kick for goal, doesn't mean he's going to make it as an AFL footballer. You need more than one trick. Connolly is a VFL player at best and hasn't shown anything that I can see to suggest he can make it AFL level.

Coops is also v. good mark, great leap, willing to play team role, good size, young, brave, developing.
And being blaise about goalkicking suggests you are trialing as a Saints selector. It killed us this season.
CS is clearly the type of player we need; don't get the anti vibe unless it's just teasing.
Connolly should have been and should be picked before Jimmy W. Has far more to offer and flexible hammies. Selectors err on the conservative side until it's too late.
Would have lost nothing playing Connolly earlier and would have got useful games into him. Peak Jimmy W was years ago.

[D.B.Cooper]

Only players I would actively try to trade are Hill & Jones.
Reason both are reportedly highly paid at the club and both under performing.

Hill - good player but IMO a fat cat with questionable commitment to team and lacks elite fitness that was his trademark in early career.
Jones - do we need entitled, relatively well paid young guys with “issues” under performing?

The rest is just my perception of market value or what would be needed to trade them.

Untouchable
King
Marshall
Sinclair
Steele
Wilkie

Young untouchable (too early to judge)
NWM
Windhager
Owens

Don’t trade unless a club pays overs, much prefer to keep.
Overs for Gresham is 1st rounder, overs for Ross is a pick in 20’s.
Gresham
Membrey
Crouch
Ross
Howard

Trade for a good deal (have some currency) prefer to keep.
Mid 2nd -3rd round picks probably market.
Clark
Battle
Coffield
Billings
McKenzie
Higgins

Trade bait - salary dump, move them on.
3rd to 4th round picks depending on how much of their salary we pay.
Hill
Jones

Very little trade currency (3rd - 4th round pick at very best) might as well keep.
Butler
Long
Paton
Webster
Wood

No trade currency (DFA or 5th round pick)
Byrnes
Bytel
Connolly
Heath
Highmore
Sharman
Leinert

No value at all = DFA if not contracted
Allison
Adams
Peris
Hayes

[Saints58]

Easier to nominate non core?
Hill
Butler
Webster
Higgins
Byrnes
?

I would look at webster and Byrnes as trades if we trade Bytel to Essendon plus Higgins ,butler no small forwards we should keep 2 of them at least

[Vortex]

Connolly untouchable?

He’s a chance to be delisted!

He's about the best kick on the list
He's fast
He loves a contest
He'd form a great HB partnership with Sincs

Sharman is a great kick for goal, doesn't mean he's going to make it as an AFL footballer. You need more than one trick. Connolly is a VFL player at best and hasn't shown anything that I can see to suggest he can make it AFL level.

Coops is also v. good mark, great leap, willing to play team role, good size, young, brave, developing.
And being blaise about goalkicking suggests you are trialing as a Saints selector. It killed us this season.
CS is clearly the type of player we need; don't get the anti vibe unless it's just teasing.
Connolly should have been and should be picked before Jimmy W. Has far more to offer and flexible hammies. Selectors err on the conservative side until it's too late.
Would have lost nothing playing Connolly earlier and would have got useful games into him. Peak Jimmy W was years ago.

Connoly over Webster?...next level thinking right there

[B.M]

Ridiculous thinking

[Yorkeys]

Ridiculous thinking

Metres gained: below average. Tackles: below average. All other stats: average (Saints website).
Tried to recall a raking pass from Jimmy that set up a score: could not, but you do?
Can remember him taking countless uncontested 15.5m passes from kick outs. Propping, counting to 25 then kicking down the line, predictable as. Can remember forwards getting hold of him.
Jimmy's not "core", however I don't dispute my thinking is often ridiculous.
Connolly is a better bet, looking to the future. We need guys with pace and a killer boot.

[Banger9798]

Webster is 188 cm and plays tall, and Connolly 181cm and plays short.

Connolly is a great kick and very evasive I'd be happy to keep him he showed a fair bit last year, but don't see him as a Webster replacement. Webster often finds himself minding a true key forward or resting ruckman.

[Killa]

In reviewing the List, the most obvious deficiencies are (once again) the lack of KPP players to support King and Howard, the absence of Ruck support for Marshall

AND

We will have 4 (yes, just 4) 30 year olds on our List in 2023, being Hill, Ross, Webster and Campbell.

Then 29 year olds in Couch, Membrey and Wood.

So we lack core experience - noting also the deficiencies of the static, ball butchering Ross, Webster who just never keeps his feet in a contest and that Campbell is a back up Ruckman.

Hill is class

Of the next level, Wood was de-listed by North Melbourne.

Crouch (from Adelaide) and Membrey (from Sydney) are of the required standard.

So, at the top of our List we have serious deficiencies.

We just do not have the Martin's, Dangerfield's, Sellwood's, Fyfe's, Riewoldt's et al that the other competing sides are held together by.

This is an extension of why we bought in State League players, to fill a demographic hole in our List (and Wilkie remains) and to buy time whilst those in their then early 20's gained maturity and experience.

So a hell of a lot is being asked of our mid 20's age grouping.

They are having to carry the load, exclusively.

We lost all of our Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Dal Santo, Hayes, Montagna et al grouping.

We just do not have "stars" of the competition, now into their 30's, well past 200 if not 300 games leading the next generation.

The next generation is needing to forge its own way, starting from Billings, Gresham, Clark, Coffield then to our later Draft Picks.

Plus those we have traded in such as Steele, Higgins and Howard.

THIS is the reality of our List.

Ryder and Hannebery will be sadly missed for their experience and class (but you need more than 3, 3 including Hill).

The Club is well aware of this situation (witness the recruiting from State Leagues as the first step, and why) and is well aware that patience is required, along with some luck on the injury front.

With Coffield, Gresham, Steele, Clark, King, Billings, Marshall, Howard, Higgins, Battle, Paton, Sinclair and Wilkie we have a core coming thru

Then we have the prospect of Long, Owens, Windhager and Wanganeen-Milera with hopes for Adams, Heath and Peris.

Plus some bits and pieces such as Jones.

Then we Draft and search the FA's

Particularly with a decent run with injuries, it is not as bleak as some on here would portray.

We will continue to build

As will every Club.

In 2023, we start with gaining Coffield, Billings, Clark and Gresham as the start point (because their contributions in 2022 were severely curtailed by injury).

[Saintmike65]

There is a simple reason why we don’t have top end talent and that is poor drafting over 2 decades…picking flankers in the hope of turning them into midfielders!!
We are lucky Windhager and Owens fell into our lap.

[Killa]

The reason for the absence of a core of 200 game class players in my view is that Lyon supported our clas players with rejects from other Clubs

He did not promote a youth policy, giving Drafted youth the opportunity to play alongside Stars of the competition

This takes a generation or more to correct

Our current predicament has nothing to do with “drafting flankers” or the other rubbish put on sites such as this

The demise of the Club’s performance post Lyon meant it was difficult to offer to the likes of Cameron, May and all the others poached from lower Clubs to upper echelon Clubs at Contract end (so competition equalisation with a Draft is a nonsense before you get to the likes of benefactors such as Costa and incentives post retirement)

Remember, the Collingwood presentation to Roo was to play in front of blockbuster crowds at the MCG (regardless of where they are on the Ladder)

Not 20,000 at Docklands at 4PM on a Sunday (so making up the AFL numbers)

[cwrcyn]

The consequences of poor recruiting take a few years to really manifest. We are suffering now for the failures from 7 to 10 years ago. How many players drafted by us in the national draft are star players in that 24 to 27 age group?

If we look at the national drafts (excluding rookie draft) from 2012 to 2015, it's not a pretty story. Let's look at who we selected that are still with us

2012 No players
2013 Billings
2014 McKenzie
2015 Gresham


A grand total of 3 players in four drafts, none of them in top tier of AFL players.

So, from 2016 to 2021 we basically had to build an entire football team. Did we do it? No. We are still a work in progress because of decisions made in the four drafts from 2012 through 2015.

[Scollop]

The four years prior to the ones you listed also a drought on players still remaining.

2008 No one
2009 No one
2010 No one
2011 Webster Ross

The legacy of Lyon

[cwrcyn]

In 2019 we took the decision to fill that mid 20's demographic hole. It partly worked. Our 2020 draft will ultimately be regarded as a failure, but 2021 turned it around.

I agree Saintmike65 that we are incredibly lucky that our Academy picks came along last year.

If the 2022 and 2023 draft/trade periods are a repeat of the 2012 and 2013 draft/trade periods we will be in big trouble in 5 years. If we get it right, we can challenge in 2024/2025

[cwrcyn]

Thankfully in 2020, the trade period got us Higgins and Crouch, which will compensate for the Allison selection

[cwrcyn]

Yes Scollop, 2008 to 2015 was an abomination. Only 5 players left from 8 national drafts and not a single A grader. Just putrid.

[Saints58]

In reviewing the List, the most obvious deficiencies are (once again) the lack of KPP players to support King and Howard, the absence of Ruck support for Marshall

AND

We will have 4 (yes, just 4) 30 year olds on our List in 2023, being Hill, Ross, Webster and Campbell.

Then 29 year olds in Couch, Membrey and Wood.

So we lack core experience - noting also the deficiencies of the static, ball butchering Ross, Webster who just never keeps his feet in a contest and that Campbell is a back up Ruckman.

Hill is class

Of the next level, Wood was de-listed by North Melbourne.

Crouch (from Adelaide) and Membrey (from Sydney) are of the required standard.

So, at the top of our List we have serious deficiencies.

We just do not have the Martin's, Dangerfield's, Sellwood's, Fyfe's, Riewoldt's et al that the other competing sides are held together by.

This is an extension of why we bought in State League players, to fill a demographic hole in our List (and Wilkie remains) and to buy time whilst those in their then early 20's gained maturity and experience.

So a hell of a lot is being asked of our mid 20's age grouping.

They are having to carry the load, exclusively.

We lost all of our Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Dal Santo, Hayes, Montagna et al grouping.

We just do not have "stars" of the competition, now into their 30's, well past 200 if not 300 games leading the next generation.

The next generation is needing to forge its own way, starting from Billings, Gresham, Clark, Coffield then to our later Draft Picks.

Plus those we have traded in such as Steele, Higgins and Howard.

THIS is the reality of our List.

Ryder and Hannebery will be sadly missed for their experience and class (but you need more than 3, 3 including Hill).

The Club is well aware of this situation (witness the recruiting from State Leagues as the first step, and why) and is well aware that patience is required, along with some luck on the injury front.

With Coffield, Gresham, Steele, Clark, King, Billings, Marshall, Howard, Higgins, Battle, Paton, Sinclair and Wilkie we have a core coming thru

Then we have the prospect of Long, Owens, Windhager and Wanganeen-Milera with hopes for Adams, Heath and Peris.

Plus some bits and pieces such as Jones.

Then we Draft and search the FA's

Particularly with a decent run with injuries, it is not as bleak as some on here would portray.

We will continue to build

As will every Club.

In 2023, we start with gaining Coffield, Billings, Clark and Gresham as the start point (because their contributions in 2022 were severely curtailed by injury).

Thanks Killa great analyses but the club is looking to bring in Mitchell of hawthorn apparently we have talked to his management a few times he is 30 and they have put Bytel, Clarke, Gresham on the trade market and maybe some other players which is crazy we need these players they are the future not 30 somethings.

Our lack of KPP and young Ruck is a real worry look what happened when Dougal and Battle when they went down Joyce came in now he is delisted very frustrating I wish the list management would realize this it has been a problem for at least 2 years.

Adams was the right move but he is the only KPP we have who is young he is a big unit and before he was injured looked ok but he is still only 19 so where to now?

[Killa]

Apart from the exceptional, so very rare, you are not going to get a KPP player transitioning from Under 18 football to "tearing up" the AFL the next season (or for a number of years).

The likes of King are the exception.

There is currently a dearth of KPP players at the level.

Sydney, to address their KPP resource, went to P McCartin who was delisted by St Kilda for well known reasons.

Geelong have Hawkins, who played in a Grand Final where St Kilda had the side they had, and added Cameron from a struggling side.

Ditto Richmond with Riewoldt, adding Lynch also from a struggling side.

Melbourne recruited May, Lever and Brown, all from struggling sides.

The Western Bulldogs recruited Keath and Bruce, Bruce on a long term Contract from St Kilda.

Can St Kilda secure a May or a Lynch?

The first question is who is available - and then, given sides do not want to lose them absent the "go home" factor, how do you secure them?

So you scour the Interstate sides Drafting from Victoria, because that, basically, is the history of where they have come from

There is the Salary Cap, which should equalize (but .......)

The other side of this equation is investing in the likes of Adams and Heath - and showing patience

You just do not throw out all the eggs in the basket pending (so talk of trading the likes of Gresham, Clark and others - even Hill - is nonsense.)

We build.

We do not burn and crash.

And we develop a culture within the Club, which the Administration and the Coaching panel, led by Rattan, is doing.

You do not burn and crash that also.

You could say that (particularly) Ross and Webster are culture, at 30 years of age.

But they have had their chance, and are not in the league of 30 year olds demanding games elsewhere across the competition.

So you move on.

Which is where the likes of Billings and Gresham become more important, along with every other player on our List.

[terry smith rules]

Ridiculous thinking

Metres gained: below average. Tackles: below average. All other stats: average (Saints website).
Tried to recall a raking pass from Jimmy that set up a score: could not, but you do?
Can remember him taking countless uncontested 15.5m passes from kick outs. Propping, counting to 25 then kicking down the line, predictable as. Can remember forwards getting hold of him.
Jimmy's not "core", however I don't dispute my thinking is often ridiculous.
Connolly is a better bet, looking to the future. We need guys with pace and a killer boot.

How many games of Sandy have you watched this year

Because I saw a few games where Connolly could not hit a barn door, so not sure where all this love for him comes from

I also respect Batchelor’s weekly report and I can’t remember many where he sang the praises of Connolly

[B.M]

Not really concerned about Websters offensive ratings

He played as a lock down

More interested in what small forwards got ahold of us!

Imo

Webster had a good year

Connolly didn’t even have a good year in the VFL

[cwrcyn]

I saw about 7 Sandy games. Connolly was pretty good. Hard to be a an attacking small defender when the quality of football being played was so atrocious.

Pretty harsh judgment on Connolly

[cwrcyn]

Remember, Batchelor was saying positive things about Matt Allison when he was getting 5 possessions. Can you trust his reports based on that??