The draw

[Impatient Sainter]

The AFL are never going to predict which clubs rise and fall out of the top 8 each year!

Why does there have to be a complete draw/fixture put out at the start of each season? Why not just have each of the 18 teams play each other once and then have the bye weeks and complete the draw with the last 7 games announced. Balancing the final 6 games with a much fairer run home eg imagine if Geelong had to play 4 top 8 sides in their last 6 weeks. Then also eliminate the week off before the finals.

I think it would be a much fairer system for all?

[Killa]

In one word, Yes.

Look at Cricket Australia and Channel 7 with its broadcast rights.

Channel 7 are presenting that CA has reneged on the audience size they offered in the negotiations, due to the absence of certain players, and want to re-negotiate the Contract, reducing what Channel 7 pay for the Rights.

The AFL "sells" an audience figure to broadcasters - then on sold by the Networks to advertisers (including demographic spread).

The AFL has a vested interest in the audience tuning into watching its product.

It is the bread and butter of the AFL, its largest contributor to revenue, revenue which is distributed to the competing Clubs including to keep some operational.

It is a National audience.

Large game day attendances also reflect in larger viewing audiences, Nationally.

St Kilda attract game day audiences of how many?

The viewing audience reflects similarly (and the Networks know exactly the audience tuning in plus the demographic by age and region).

So, as a summary, St Kilda "make up the numbers" as required in the Contract(s) to give game day saturation.

The AFL has a vested interest in "blockbuster" games.

What games do St Kilda appear in which carry AFL endorsed "blockbuster games"?

The FACT that the AFL now has a level of debt, negotiated due to the impact of the Pandemic on the competition, means that, to service and pay down that debt in accordance with the Terms and Conditions of the lending, the AFL has a vested interest in the status of games, promoted as they are thru the "free" media (so Radio Stations and papers et al).

Because "blockbuster games" deliver audience, both at the games so admission revenue and, of more importance, a viewing audience.

That audience is the gold plated negotiating chip for media Rights negotiations.

The Networks buy because they then sell to an advertising audience, such as the likes of Harvey Norman, Chemist Warehouse, Toyota et al.

So yes, to survive, the Pandemic sees the manipulation of the Draw (including to retain numbers Nationally, so they want Queensland, NSW, SA and WA participation).

Plus the big supporter Clubs in Melbourne.

[SaintPav]

What’s that got to do with playing Norf and Wet Toast once for the whole season and then playing both Brisbane and Sydney both twice in the second half of the year?

[Templar]

Sneaking suspicion that the draw has been manipulated long before the pandemic.

[SaintPav]

Sneaking suspicion that the draw has been manipulated long before the pandemic.

Yes. An irrelevant and useless tangent.

[Killa]

Yes

But the Pandemic has added a further dimension

Media rights attract what they attract in terms of money into the AFL coffers

The AFL is not a public company but the Media Companies are (so we know what they pay for their rights to coverage)

The EPL and other completions do not have a finals series (although they do have other competitions)

So they play each other home and away

They are professional footballers, well remunerated to play

They play multiple times a week across all the competitions - and their Lists accommodate that schedule

AFL puts different pressures on players

And a 34 match Minor Round would probably be too long, interest waning ahead of eventually the Major Round

The remedy for St Kilda is representation to the AFL

[Wayne42]

If we were a very good team we would overcome any draw the AFL served up for us, but alas, we are ordinary so it seems like the draw is our undoing.

For me, our undoing is we have way too many ordinary players that struggle against the better teams.

[desertsaint]

I'm not whingeing about missing finals. We didn't deserve to make it based on out last 11 games. Merely pointing out how the draft can influence the end of year positions on the ladder. I don't think anyone could argue against that.

no one reasonable could argue with it. but as shown, many just want to argue.

[Wayne42]

I'm not whingeing about missing finals. We didn't deserve to make it based on out last 11 games. Merely pointing out how the draft can influence the end of year positions on the ladder. I don't think anyone could argue against that.

no one reasonable could argue with it. but as shown, many just want to argue.

They can if they think people are looking for excuses.

[Jacks Back]

Transparency in the FIXture is what's needed.
Have a formula that is known based on where you finished last season.
Even if it was as simple as splitting the ladder into 3 groups of 6.
1,4,7,10,13,16
2,5,8,11,14,17
3,6,9,12,15,18

You play every team once (17) and then every team in your "group" twice (5). That's 22 games with every team having a bye, that's 23 rounds.
What that doesn't guarantee you is repeat blockbusters, showdowns, and derbys.

The 6-6-6 should be top 6, middle 6 and bottom 6 though.

You play everyone once (17 games - rotating home and away each year) You then have your derbys, showdowns, blockbusters say in round 18 and then the last 4 games you play 2 of the teams in your six and one top and one bottom 6 team from the year before - DONE! You can't get any fairer than that (apart form not having the derby's etc).

[Ghost Like]

Three Conferences - simple.

The AFL can load each conference with the sides they want playing each other twice.

Each side plays the teams in their conference twice. (10 rounds)

They then play each team in each other conference once. N.B.: Home ground alternated each season. (12 rounds)

Play the 5 in their own conference the first 5 rounds and the last 5 rounds - that way a side plays all 17 teams before starting to double up.

The AFL and broadcasters get their blockbusters (x2) & the competition / supporters get a modicum of consistency, transparency and understanding.

[bangaulegend]

IMO the draw is what it is & yeah we seem to get the rough end of the stick but bottom line is if your good enough you will play finals if your not you won't . Carlton is the prime example this year 7 & zip lost their last 2 games in final few minutes by a few points after holding match winning leads in both . It is was it is & I'm damn sure the AFL is not listening to any bleeding heart story's from Saint supporters on Saintsational IMO anyway

[desertsaint]

I'm not whingeing about missing finals. We didn't deserve to make it based on out last 11 games. Merely pointing out how the draft can influence the end of year positions on the ladder. I don't think anyone could argue against that.

no one reasonable could argue with it. but as shown, many just want to argue.

They can if they think people are looking for excuses.

Whether people use it as an excuse is neither here nor there to the argument that the draw is compromised and disadvantages some teams. That is an outcome not a rebuttle.

[Wayne42]

I'm not whingeing about missing finals. We didn't deserve to make it based on out last 11 games. Merely pointing out how the draft can influence the end of year positions on the ladder. I don't think anyone could argue against that.

no one reasonable could argue with it. but as shown, many just want to argue.

They can if they think people are looking for excuses.

Whether people use it as an excuse is neither here nor there to the argument that the draw is compromised and disadvantages some teams. That is an outcome not a rebuttle.

I wonder if David Noble agrees with that when he tables his review.

[groupie1]

Here's the top 10 teams and how many games they played against top 8 teams

12 St Kilda
11 Melbourne, Carlton
10 Bulldogs
9 Collingwood
8 Richmond, Dockers, Sydney, Brisbane, Geelong

So... with no guarantees this gets address... plus we lost 2 games due to bad kicking for goal only (PA and Brisbane) this year (to go with the Geelong and Swans defeats last year).
Fix the ridiculous high tackle count we had in one game: 9.

We also need to address much better ball use.
But from above: tough draws, bad goal kicking.... we'd be playing finals with tough draws. (add 2 wins to each of 2021 and 2022 seasons).

I don;t think we'far away.
King/Higgins get goalkicking coaching.... rest of team skill training, add De Goey, and more youth... adjust gameplan to resemble last half of 2021....

We';re not far away.

[Yorkeys]

Here's the top 10 teams and how many games they played against top 8 teams

12 St Kilda
11 Melbourne, Carlton
10 Bulldogs
9 Collingwood
8 Richmond, Dockers, Sydney, Brisbane, Geelong

So... with no guarantees this gets address... plus we lost 2 games due to bad kicking for goal only (PA and Brisbane) this year (to go with the Geelong and Swans defeats last year).
Fix the ridiculous high tackle count we had in one game: 9.

We also need to address much better ball use.
But from above: tough draws, bad goal kicking.... we'd be playing finals with tough draws. (add 2 wins to each of 2021 and 2022 seasons).

I don;t think we'far away.
King/Higgins get goalkicking coaching.... rest of team skill training, add De Goey, and more youth... adjust gameplan to resemble last half of 2021....

We';re not far away.

Also: seems to me our forwards give away too many undisciplined frees relieving pressure on the oppos. Sydney, from a brief look, seem to have excellent tackling technique. NRL influence and smarter, more disciplined?

[samuraisaint]

So the cats got a 6 game advantage over us

The proof will be in the pudding - based on the last three grames we played - well, the last eleven really - we wouldn't win a final this year.

If Geelong beat Collingwood - which I don't think they will, btw - then they deserved to get there. If they can't, then they can point to their soft fixture which includes lots of games against bottom clubs at their own home ground, as the only reason they made it.


But, to be honest, I think the club can start to point the finger at our lack of ability to get up in games we sell interstate/overseas, because the way we prepare for them is absolutely bush league stuff.

[Saints58]

Transparency in the FIXture is what's needed.
Have a formula that is known based on where you finished last season.
Even if it was as simple as splitting the ladder into 3 groups of 6.
1,4,7,10,13,16
2,5,8,11,14,17
3,6,9,12,15,18

You play every team once (17) and then every team in your "group" twice (5). That's 22 games with every team having a bye, that's 23 rounds.
What that doesn't guarantee you is repeat blockbusters, showdowns, and derbys.

The 6-6-6 should be top 6, middle 6 and bottom 6 though.

You play everyone once (17 games - rotating home and away each year) You then have your derbys, showdowns, blockbusters say in round 18 and then the last 4 games you play 2 of the teams in your six and one top and one bottom 6 team from the year before - DONE! You can't get any fairer than that (apart form not having the derby's etc).

With finals top 4 in each group with 3/4 loser out 1/2 winner in group GF and loser in group PF with winner of 3/4
With 2 winners in GF of each group 6 teams the winners move on and the Best 2 team go into that group so there are 4 teams.
Different ways to determine the next best 2 team could be wildcard or best looser what ever you wish
Then the top 4 play off until you get to final 2 in GF to determine 1-4 could be on record in pool games.
With this formula a total of 6 teams miss out and there is more in finals it would be a selling point for TV rights
Could have all interstate teams in different groups so it would make it more interesting.

[Sainter_Dad]

From 2012:

Each Team plays all other tems once between Round 1 and 17
At the end of Round 17 the league is split into Sections for (mini) Final Series

Draft poisitions fixed at the end of Round 17

Top 8 play each other once more (Section A)
Bottom 10 play 7 of the remaining 9 teams (Section B)

Top 7 of Section A fill positions 1 - 7 of the Final Series
Lowest finisher from Section A drops out of the finals race

Top Finisher from Section B is elevated to the Final Series

Standard Finals Series then applies
1-4
2-3
5-8
6-7

Benefits
Removes tanking as the draft order is fixed at Round 17 when teams will still be 'live'
Keeps interest in the season for the Section B as one team will still make the finals
Ensures that most teams playing finals will have had competitive games up to the finals
Guarantees blockbusters in the weeks leading up to the finals

[CURLY]

The fixture cannot have restrictions on it due to the apparent size of a club. The fact that Collingwood are not fixtured to go to Geelong is basically AFL sanctioned cheating.

[Sainter_Dad]

The fixture cannot have restrictions on it due to the apparent size of a club. The fact that Collingwood are not fixtured to go to Geelong is basically AFL sanctioned cheating.

Nope - good business sense - Hamilton does not book Chelsea Heights Hotel to stage a performance

Should we ever become FOOTBALL RELEVANT we will get the same consideration - and that means 'Bums on Seats' not 60K members afraid of the Football and us actually winning games and making money so we don't have to sell to Darwin/NZ/China

[Ghost Like]

The fixture cannot have restrictions on it due to the apparent size of a club. The fact that Collingwood are not fixtured to go to Geelong is basically AFL sanctioned cheating.

Nope - good business sense - Hamilton does not book Chelsea Heights Hotel to stage a performance

Thank god for that, their live cover bands are much more enjoyable.

[Sainter_Dad]

The fixture cannot have restrictions on it due to the apparent size of a club. The fact that Collingwood are not fixtured to go to Geelong is basically AFL sanctioned cheating.

Nope - good business sense - Hamilton does not book Chelsea Heights Hotel to stage a performance

Thank god for that, their live cover bands are much more enjoyable.

Oh - and Shannon Noll - Pseudo Echo

[desertsaint]

What's wrong with corruption? Hey if you want the police to favour you simply become successful and rich enough to pay them off. Simple.
Like some peoples weird line of argument.

[ace]

If you win, it doesn't matter who you played.