Effort, Skill not game plan or coach

[older saint]

Best rule I ever made myself to stay off the computer after a game!

For 1 minutes lets forget agendas and bias. Lets remove the no matter what happens sack the coach, remove the when we lose drop Long, Ross, Billings etc, lets forget the all that stuff and look at facts.

Skills - We lack players with foot skills and have for some time. Goal kicking is a foot skill and has been bad for years. Field kicking is appalling. the first 3.1 for WB was from direct turnovers by foot - Marshall, Battle, Sinclair or Hill (I Think). No errors will occur but Battle and Marshall pin pointed English and Bont . For those that choose to though this can be improved with practice but not kick to kick but pressure kicking simulate game circumstances. It is hard and here for some lies the problem, its too hard and not pretty or popular.

Effort - Too many players pick and choose when to go and when to run forward of the ball. You cant have everyone getting the ball however when it is your turn you need to go. I would love to see some wide footage of players pushing in front of the contest relying on a Steele or Crouch to win the ball and get it to them . When we dont win they are out of position and it is an out number the other way.
13 TACKLES for a half is a disgrace. Steele, Crouch 3, Brynes 2 - basic maths said we had 14 players play a half of footy and not lay a tackle when the opposition had 30 plus more possessions. Lack of effort.
End of the game - 7 plays still didn't have a tackle. 7 out of 23!

The same thing happened against Essendon. This group has some mentally weak players who need to be called out. When will players take responsibility to their lack of action.

Yet another season is wasted. tough calls on some need to be made . Forget reputations, forget pay cheques, find out who you want and who you dont - and that may mean moving on players who us mugs in the stand go i dont get it he was a good player. Richmond made the call on Delidio - one of their best players but also on e of their most selfish. 12 months later they won a flag.

Nothing above is the responsibility of the coaches. These are afl players paid good money so if they need motivation from the coach to play then it will be a short career as even John Kennedy could only motivate so much.

I have seen some bad sides in the 80's but generally they gave effort. The playing group last night were an embarrassment to the jumper.

[spert]

Professional sports clubs around the world pay big money to secure top coaches, as a head coach is integral to a team in so many facets, and is an important part of how team performs, no matter what the sport. Sure we have too many middle of the road players, but they can play a lot better, and play better as a team, but need excellent coaching to do this and keep it at a consistent level. We have deficiencies being put on public display right now from our players to coaches.

[The_Dud]

The coach sets the standard and holds the team accountable.

The snippet from the presser that I heard had Ratten saying that performance was “below par”…

Wowee Ratts, strong language

[Teflon]

Professional sports clubs around the world pay big money to secure top coaches, as a head coach is integral to a team in so many facets, and is an important part of how team performs, no matter what the sport. Sure we have too many middle of the road players, but they can play a lot better, and play better as a team, but need excellent coaching to do this and keep it at a consistent level. We have deficiencies being put on public display right now from our players to coaches.

We’ll said
One would argue effort is non negotiable and the no 1 thing a coach must do is prepare his side to turn up each week
Ours aren’t
Yes we have list holes - all sides do
This side is playing like a bottom 4 side
I do not believe the list is bottom 4
That tells me the players are not buying into a game plan they know it’s not going to give them the best chance to succeed
We have re-signed a mediocre coach to save $ apparently
We’ll you get what you pay for
Our game plan relies on flaky plays out the back
Shut down our run /Sinclair and we are finished
That’s coaching
Oh and he’s had 3 years already…this ain’t year 1
There’s those facts people don’t like

[chook23]

A coach/coaches at this level contribute to the buzz of the group

Skill/effort at this level is a given

The playing group / coaches as flat as a tack

They were not prepared

[Teflon]

A coach/coaches at this level contribute to the buzz of the group

Skill/effort at this level is a given

The playing group / coaches as flat as a tack

They were not prepared

For a season defining game ….
You gotta ask the question: what’s wrong down there…something is

[older saint]

The coach sets the standard and holds the team accountable.

The snippet from the presser that I heard had Ratten saying that performance was “below par”…

Wowee Ratts, strong language

All coaches are media scripted.
We all would like to see him come out at the presser and say what he thinks but in the PC world we live in worried about upsetting everyone - players, sponsors etc it is never going to happen,

[older saint]

Professional sports clubs around the world pay big money to secure top coaches, as a head coach is integral to a team in so many facets, and is an important part of how team performs, no matter what the sport. Sure we have too many middle of the road players, but they can play a lot better, and play better as a team, but need excellent coaching to do this and keep it at a consistent level. We have deficiencies being put on public display right now from our players to coaches.

We’ll said
One would argue effort is non negotiable and the no 1 thing a coach must do is prepare his side to turn up each week
Ours aren’t
Yes we have list holes - all sides do
This side is playing like a bottom 4 side
I do not believe the list is bottom 4
That tells me the players are not buying into a game plan they know it’s not going to give them the best chance to succeed
We have re-signed a mediocre coach to save $ apparently
We’ll you get what you pay for
Our game plan relies on flaky plays out the back
Shut down our run /Sinclair and we are finished
That’s coaching
Oh and he’s had 3 years already…this ain’t year 1
There’s those facts people don’t like

So we let the lunatics run the asylum then . players upset , dont like being held accountable, dont like the game plan ( which they seemed to like in the first 11 weeks when 8-3), ..FFS get them a bag of cement. When you are committed to the contest , tackle and put your head over the ball then you can question these things , but apart from 4-5 every week the rest dnt have a leg to stand on IMO.

Ratten is not Clarkson but he isn't Neeld either .
Are the coaches responsible for the lack of foot skills - to some extent yes but when will players be held accountable rather than excuses of dont like the game plan .
How about Hill/ Higgins/ Webster etc please explain how you can play a game of football and not have 1 tackle? Nothing to do with the game plan tackling. Jones, Billings, Gresham why do you run ahead of the ball so much rather than commit to the contest - player choice not game plan.
I am over the club and supporter for the last 40 year blaming coaches for lack of success- are they responsible - partly but these players many idolize get off pretty easy IMO.

[Vortex]

We've just got a bog average list and when they are all available and play like they've snorted a line of speed we scratch out a few wins. Scratch beneath the surface and it's a deck of cards and they crumble at the smallest about of pressure. Before last night I thought we needed 10 to 12 players, now I'm thinking like we are close to a total rebuild. King is the epitome of how average our list is, he is our No. 4 marquee player who the club are building a list around but it is becoming very evident he has serious resilience issues and sooks it up as soon as things don't go his way. That type of attitude is infectious especially when you are recruited to the club as the messiah. So many other spuds but King is a bottom card and when it falls the whole team gives up.

[The Fireman]

as soon as we got the ball 90% of the time we went backwards and sidewards until finally losing possession... after awhile you see the game slipping away ..why wouldnt you take the take game on ?
thats a coaching thing.

[Vortex]

as soon as we got the ball 90% of the time we went backwards and sidewards until finally losing possession... after awhile you see the game slipping away ..why wouldnt you take the take game on ?
thats a coaching thing.

They go backwards because they don't have the skills to go forward, take the safe option within your skill level, that's a player thing.

[Teflon]

only via radio but commentators were saying they've practised that chipping it sideways crap all week - that's why they were doing it today. it's not some mad idea the players suddenly took it on themselves to try out.

Posted on here today fellow SS
That’s not players
That’s coaching instruction
**** stupid too
Play a kick mark game - sideways with a list choc full of mediocre ball users??
You’re quite Brilliant Brett/Rath…

[The Fireman]

as soon as we got the ball 90% of the time we went backwards and sidewards until finally losing possession... after awhile you see the game slipping away ..why wouldnt you take the take game on ?
thats a coaching thing.

They go backwards because they don't have the skills to go forward, take the safe option within your skill level, that's a player thing.

I disagree

[Vortex]

as soon as we got the ball 90% of the time we went backwards and sidewards until finally losing possession... after awhile you see the game slipping away ..why wouldnt you take the take game on ?
thats a coaching thing.

They go backwards because they don't have the skills to go forward, take the safe option within your skill level, that's a player thing.

I disagree

disagree away...but my eyes don't lie, nearly every player turned the ball over through crappy skills, they all had a go it which shows unity I suppose, some had repeated goes at turning the ball over through skill errors, my eyes weren't seeing things, they couldn't execute an Auskick game plan and so yeah they are flatout trying to execute an AFL game plan. Maybe that's the problem, maybe it IS the coaches, maybe the game plan needs to be de risked to accommodate the poor skill level, maybe that's where Ratts is going wrong, he's pretending he has skilled AFL players to work with. Ok I'm onboard, we are s*** because of the coach for not making a dumbed down game plan that accommodates really poorly skilled AFL players.

[happy feet]

Older Saint you are on the money. Standing in the wet and cold at the Gilbey’s Gin end of Moorabbin in the early 80’s there was not a lot of joy, but the team played hard and opposition teams may have left with a win but they left sore. What we saw last night was embarrassing and a great display of soft bruise free football.

[happy feet]

Older Saint you are on the money. Standing in the wet and cold at the Gilbey’s Gin end of Moorabbin in the early 80’s there was not a lot of joy, but the team played hard and opposition teams may have left with a win but they left sore. What we saw last night was embarrassing and a great display of soft bruise free football.

[Sanctorum]

We've just got a bog average list and when they are all available and play like they've snorted a line of speed we scratch out a few wins. Scratch beneath the surface and it's a deck of cards and they crumble at the smallest about of pressure. Before last night I thought we needed 10 to 12 players, now I'm thinking like we are close to a total rebuild. King is the epitome of how average our list is, he is our No. 4 marquee player who the club are building a list around but it is becoming very evident he has serious resilience issues and sooks it up as soon as things don't go his way. That type of attitude is infectious especially when you are recruited to the club as the messiah. So many other spuds but King is a bottom card and when it falls the whole team gives up.

I've found myself agreeing with you quite a bit this year Vortex and I believe you are mostly correct in your assessments. I don't however go along with your repeated criticisms of Max King. Yes, he displays what we perceive to be poor body language, maybe even a lack of interest or desire at times. But in fact King's overall stats in his short career so far are quite good - in 54 games he's kicked 100 goals at an average of 1.85, way ahead of the great Nick Riewoldt who in his first 50 games had kicked just 53 goals and was supported by a much stronger midfield than is King. Admittedly Roo had a much easier apprenticeship with Fraser Gehrig and Stephen Milne being the main goal kickers in those years, but I'd argue this adds to King's credit as he has been under intense and relentless pressure to be the "Go-to man" in front of goals from the moment he made his debut. He's also by consensus of most commentators had a fairly rough deal from the umpires this year.

Do you really think it's fair to judge King's performance while the team overall is playing as poorly as it has recently, with delivery into the forward line really really bad??

IMHO Max King is on track to become one of the comp's best key forwards in the next couple of years as I feel sure the St Kilda midfield, with the further development of Wanganeen-Milera, Windhager and Owens, combined with the likelihood of another gun mid or two being traded in, will see him become a champion of the game.

[The Fireman]

as soon as we got the ball 90% of the time we went backwards and sidewards until finally losing possession... after awhile you see the game slipping away ..why wouldnt you take the take game on ?
thats a coaching thing.

They go backwards because they don't have the skills to go forward, take the safe option within your skill level, that's a player thing.

I disagree

disagree away...but my eyes don't lie, nearly every player turned the ball over through crappy skills, they all had a go it which shows unity I suppose, some had repeated goes at turning the ball over through skill errors, my eyes weren't seeing things, they couldn't execute an Auskick game plan and so yeah they are flatout trying to execute an AFL game plan. Maybe that's the problem, maybe it IS the coaches, maybe the game plan needs to be de risked to accommodate the poor skill level, maybe that's where Ratts is going wrong, he's pretending he has skilled AFL players to work with. Ok I'm onboard, we are s*** because of the coach for not making a dumbed down game plan that accommodates really poorly skilled AFL players.

Don’t believe your lying eyes
They should have been instructed to take the game on despite the risk and your claim of skill deficiency Move the ball forward and show some trust in your team mates
I’m not a coach but if something ain’t working……..
So yes I believe a coach has a lot to do with the result. To think otherwise ask yourself why do we have one ?

[Impatient Sainter]

Im sorry OS but everything you mentioned is the exact result of coaching, game plan & poor training techniques. All week the entire club highlighted they want to be bolder with the ball, so it was no surprise a well coached outfit like the Bulldogs were ready for it. If you watch the kicks we went inboard and turned over the players telegraphed the kicks and waited far too long to pull the trigger. Or they were kicking off zero steps and its impossible to get any speed on the ball in that regard. Those are things that hasnt been corrected at training and players have created poor habbits.

Then look how poor our midfield were and Ratten did absoluetly zero to change things up or even tag Bontempelli. Once the Bulldogs won first use and started their overlap game Ratten had no answers, the zone defence was picked apart and we couldnt win it back until someone like Wilkie intercepted. Senior coaches have opposition analysts and an entire week to plan for games, Ratten looked like he was in a coma and is one of the worst coaches in the game when it comes to adjusting things up when plan A isnt working.

Its also Ratten's responsibility to ensure he gets full effort out of the entire list every week. Last night too many of the team looked switched off, like they zero trust or faith in what the coaches are trying to sell.

[Teflon]

Im sorry OS but everything you mentioned is the exact result of coaching, game plan & poor training techniques. All week the entire club highlighted they want to be bolder with the ball, so it was no surprise a well coached outfit like the Bulldogs were ready for it. If you watch the kicks we went inboard and turned over the players telegraphed the kicks and waited far too long to pull the trigger. Or they were kicking off zero steps and its impossible to get any speed on the ball in that regard. Those are things that hasnt been corrected at training and players have created poor habbits.

Then look how poor our midfield were and Ratten did absoluetly zero to change things up or even tag Bontempelli. Once the Bulldogs won first use and started their overlap game Ratten had no answers, the zone defence was picked apart and we couldnt win it back until someone like Wilkie intercepted. Senior coaches have opposition analysts and an entire week to plan for games, Ratten looked like he was in a coma and is one of the worst coaches in the game when it comes to adjusting things up when plan A isnt working.

Its also Ratten's responsibility to ensure he gets full effort out of the entire list every week. Last night too many of the team looked switched off, like they zero trust or faith in what the coaches are trying to sell.

Great post spot on
It’s also telling that Brett seems be distancing himself from the effort
Now naming players in the media…never a good look
I think someone needs to tell Brett the lack of effort, poor game plan and poor match day tactics/response when teams get on a roll is HIS job

[Devilhead]

If only we could show half the heart and desire North just showed against the Tigers

[Banger9798]

Hunter Clark needs to salvage something from the year

He needs to take a spot in the midfield which is screaming out for quality. He has it, and bad luck aside, he needs to make that spot his own.

Not sure what has happened to Zac Jones, he is a shadow of the player that was getting 35+ disposals last year.

Amon and DeGoey and tall KPD , even an older one.

[Teflon]

Hunter Clark needs to salvage something from the year

He needs to take a spot in the midfield which is screaming out for quality. He has it, and bad luck aside, he needs to make that spot his own.

Not sure what has happened to Zac Jones, he is a shadow of the player that was getting 35+ disposals last year.

Amon and DeGoey and tall KPD , even an older one.

Honestly I’d inject both Clarke and Sinclair into those midfield rotations - they can rotate from HB
I’d love to give Connolly time on a HB he has bsll use
Keep the development going
Immediately improve the midfield and ball use going forward
Won’t happen
Brett will just put Membrey behind the ball as his ace up the sleeve !

[perfectionist]

It's not an accident that the most skilful teams make the finals. Generally, the two most skilful teams make the GF and the one with the best backline takes the flag. The role of the coach is to oversee the skills and fitness programs, and to motivate and focus the players over a long season. Coaches rarely take a dud under another coach and turn him into a star. Both Jack Newnes and Blake Acres were turn over merchants with us and are still turn over merchants with new clubs and two coaches later. The coaches haven't made one bit of difference.

[Teflon]

It's not an accident that the most skilful teams make the finals. Generally, the two most skilful teams make the GF and the one with the best backline takes the flag. The role of the coach is to oversee the skills and fitness programs, and to motivate and focus the players over a long season. Coaches rarely take a dud under another coach and turn him into a star. Both Jack Newnes and Blake Acres were turn over merchants with us and are still turn over merchants with new clubs and two coaches later. The coaches haven't made one bit of difference.

So just have empty coaches boxes then?
They just play indoor cricket with the boys during the week and laugh at fart jokes???
IF you listen to Sam Mitchell he believes a core role of the coach is to improve the skills of players and he’s view is this happens through a methodical approach to training skill execution under pressure
What would he know Hawks only won 4 flags with one of the most skilful sides getting around
I suspect the coach might also be accountable for the system of play and ensuring he builds one that capitalises on the strength of his team and instills the discipline to ensure players stick to it
We have none of that atm