What a pack of whingers

[meher baba]

Harden TF up the bloody lot of you.

Our undermanned midfield was eclipsed last night by a vastly superior lineup. They were missing some forwards, but that’s always less important than key midfielders, who they had in abundance. On top of that, we were missing a key defender, who I think most fans (except perhaps BM) now recognise as being a much more important player than they realised.

All this crap about game plans cannot disguise the fact that we have a terribly weak midfield, made even worse last night by the absence of Ross (another massively underrated player). It wouldn’t matter what game plan we might have tried last night: the game was a mismatch. Our only hope was that the Dogs would be off their game. Didn’t happen.

Our laughably weak midfield isn’t the fault of our current coaching staff or our current administration: it’s a dilemma their predecessors put them in. The solution is not going to be wholesale sackings. You could sack all the favourite whipping boys and it wouldn’t make the midfield one bit stronger. You can criticise Gresham all you like but, in the absence of any other midfield attacking threats, it’s an easy task for opponents to snuff him out.

Ratts isn’t perhaps the greatest coach on earth, but he’s not the worst either. Give him the cattle and he’ll do better. Getting them will be the difficult part. Owens and Windhager give some hope. I don’t think Byrnes or Bytel are going to amount to much. We somehow need to trade for better talent.

And, in the interim, as far as I am concerned, you bunch of catastrophising whinging snowflake moaners can take a running jump.

[chook23]

Some posters have reacted poorly

But what this team dished up in the first 45 mins was embarassing....the preparation by the coaching dept the same.

Your comments about the impact to our midfield by injury could be aligned to over the top statements you claim made by others

St Kilda were insipid

The whole club

[Vortex]

I can't defend the club today, the whole club is stinking it up but mostly the players. Yes they were playing like they didn't care but I had an epiphany during last nights game, we just have a bunch of crap over achievers. And the biggest concern are our supposed marquee players like King, his attitude has no place on an elite sporting field, I now have serious concerns about the damage his attitude is having on the club.

Gresham is another, he is lauded as some type of potential A grade or elite midfielder, he needs to be kicked out of the midfield immediately, he is a crab.

The players deserve everything that is coming their way.

[meher baba]

Sorry but no. I don’t accept that the players weren’t trying or that the coaching staff didn’t have a plan. Within a few minutes it became clear that our midfield was unable to come close to matching theirs and, once they started getting their shots for goal on target, it was game over.

But the players fought our the game and the coaching staff kept trying things. We simply weren’t good enough. We started the season looking like a 9-12 place team. Our draw flattered us early on, and we did play well in some games. Then we lost Steele and later Howard at crucial times. We don’t have much depth in the midfield or key positions so we have fallen over. It happens to several clubs each year. It’s devastating for fans, but it doesn’t warrant the vitriol I have been reading on here.

[Vortex]

Sorry but no. I don’t accept that the players weren’t trying or that the coaching staff didn’t have a plan. Within a few minutes it became clear that our midfield was unable to come close to matching theirs and, once they started getting their shots for goal on target, it was game over.

But the players fought our the game and the coaching staff kept trying things. We simply weren’t good enough. We started the season looking like a 9-12 place team. Our draw flattered us. Then we lost Steele and later Howard at crucial times. We don’t have much depth in the midfield or key positions so we have fallen over. It happens to several clubs each year. It’s devastating for fans, but it doesn’t warrant the vitriol I have been reading on here.

absolutely our players aren't good enough, our midfield needs gutting and starting again. We don't have one line breaker, not one. Essentially we have a crisis in the midfield and a key tall forward who is turning out to be spud due to a phycological defect which clearly wasn't picked up at the draft combine.

[meher baba]

Sorry but no. I don’t accept that the players weren’t trying or that the coaching staff didn’t have a plan. Within a few minutes it became clear that our midfield was unable to come close to matching theirs and, once they started getting their shots for goal on target, it was game over.

But the players fought our the game and the coaching staff kept trying things. We simply weren’t good enough. We started the season looking like a 9-12 place team. Our draw flattered us. Then we lost Steele and later Howard at crucial times. We don’t have much depth in the midfield or key positions so we have fallen over. It happens to several clubs each year. It’s devastating for fans, but it doesn’t warrant the vitriol I have been reading on here.

absolutely our players aren't good enough, our midfield needs gutting and starting again. We don't have one line breaker, not one. Essentially we have a crisis in the midfield and a key tall forward who is turning out to be spud due to a phycological defect which clearly wasn't picked up at the draft combine.

I don’t agree that King is a spud, or that he has a psychological defect. With a stronger midfield, he’d be all over even the best defences, and so would be Membrey and Ryder.

[Vortex]

Sorry but no. I don’t accept that the players weren’t trying or that the coaching staff didn’t have a plan. Within a few minutes it became clear that our midfield was unable to come close to matching theirs and, once they started getting their shots for goal on target, it was game over.

But the players fought our the game and the coaching staff kept trying things. We simply weren’t good enough. We started the season looking like a 9-12 place team. Our draw flattered us. Then we lost Steele and later Howard at crucial times. We don’t have much depth in the midfield or key positions so we have fallen over. It happens to several clubs each year. It’s devastating for fans, but it doesn’t warrant the vitriol I have been reading on here.

absolutely our players aren't good enough, our midfield needs gutting and starting again. We don't have one line breaker, not one. Essentially we have a crisis in the midfield and a key tall forward who is turning out to be spud due to a phycological defect which clearly wasn't picked up at the draft combine.

I don’t agree that King is a spud, or that he has a psychological defect. With a stronger midfield, he’d be all over even the best defences, and so would be Membrey and Ryder.

He can't blame the midfield for his crap attitude, he looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane. Is a complete fail at the moment and I now have doubts he is going to develop any further due to his phycological defect. He gives his team and teammates nothing and is one of the most selfish players I have seen in a RW&B jumper. Needs to be sent to Sandy.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I seem to remember that we defeated the Bulldogs in a final two years ago.

Since then we've recruited Crouch and Higgins, got Gresham back and put another two years into King.

But somehow we've gone backwards.

Not sure who to blame if we can't blame the coaching staff.

[Vortex]

I seem to remember that we defeated the Bulldogs in a final two years ago.

Since then we've recruited Crouch and Higgins, got Gresham back and put another two years into King.

But somehow we've gone backwards.

Not sure who to blame if we can't blame the coaching staff.

try blaming the spud players, at what point to players take accountability for being overrated spuds.

[SaintPav]

Whatever you say oh enlightenment one….

Complaining about the whiners.

Just priceless……

Om

Om

[Yorkeys]

Harden TF up the bloody lot of you.

Our undermanned midfield was eclipsed last night by a vastly superior lineup. They were missing some forwards, but that’s always less important than key midfielders, who they had in abundance. On top of that, we were missing a key defender, who I think most fans (except perhaps BM) now recognise as being a much more important player than they realised.

All this crap about game plans cannot disguise the fact that we have a terribly weak midfield, made even worse last night by the absence of Ross (another massively underrated player). It wouldn’t matter what game plan we might have tried last night: the game was a mismatch. Our only hope was that the Dogs would be off their game. Didn’t happen.

Our laughably weak midfield isn’t the fault of our current coaching staff or our current administration: it’s a dilemma their predecessors put them in. The solution is not going to be wholesale sackings. You could sack all the favourite whipping boys and it wouldn’t make the midfield one bit stronger. You can criticise Gresham all you like but, in the absence of any other midfield attacking threats, it’s an easy task for opponents to snuff him out.

Ratts isn’t perhaps the greatest coach on earth, but he’s not the worst either. Give him the cattle and he’ll do better. Getting them will be the difficult part. Owens and Windhager give some hope. I don’t think Byrnes or Bytel are going to amount to much. We somehow need to trade for better talent.

And, in the interim, as far as I am concerned, you bunch of catastrophising whinging snowflake moaners can take a running jump.

Rationalising and defending that lack of tackling effort is impressive loyalty to a group that don't care.

[saintsRrising]

Harden TF up the bloody lot of you.

Our undermanned midfield was eclipsed last night by a vastly superior lineup. They were missing some forwards, but that’s always less important than key midfielders, who they had in abundance. On top of that, we were missing a key defender, who I think most fans (except perhaps BM) now recognise as being a much more important player than they realised.

The question one then needs to ask is why is our midfield behind still? This is the result of many years, and not just one game , or this season.

All this crap about game plans cannot disguise the fact that we have a terribly weak midfield, made even worse last night by the absence of Ross (another massively underrated player). It wouldn’t matter what game plan we might have tried last night: the game was a mismatch. Our only hope was that the Dogs would be off their game. Didn’t happen.

Our laughably weak midfield isn’t the fault of our current coaching staff or our current administration: it’s a dilemma their predecessors put them in. The solution is not going to be wholesale sackings. You could sack all the favourite whipping boys and it wouldn’t make the midfield one bit stronger. You can criticise Gresham all you like but, in the absence of any other midfield attacking threats, it’s an easy task for opponents to snuff him out.

Ratts isn’t perhaps the greatest coach on earth, but he’s not the worst either. Give him the cattle and he’ll do better.

Why? Would he do better, or would we just do better to a small degree due to better talent.

And give a better coach better cattle and we as a club will do better as well.

King looks to a player with huge talent, but who is being used poorly.

Which is why even better players will still struggle with the insipid play we see rolled our by the Saints 75% of the time.

Getting them will be the difficult part. Owens and Windhager give some hope. I don’t think Byrnes or Bytel are going to amount to much.




We somehow need to trade for better talent.

You see this is the core problem. Our overall trading for the right players has not been good and we mainly keep getting the wrong ones.

We have also misjudged our list with too often getting players for the immediate, rather than to build a core that could build into a team. The Cats are an exception as what they have done in recent years is to keep bringing in multiple older players to top up an already good list. Short term yes, but they seem to be able to be keep doing this each year to maintain a competitive team.

We brought in Carlisle, and while he looked good and was a quality player, he came with a dodgey back and so did not actually last long enough to help us build success. Ditto with Hannas and Jones.

Our midfield remains miles off it as you say. But that just means after paying a huge trade price for Hill, that he too will be wasted. Hannas has been a disaster.

Crouch as a FA has been ok. Ryder was steak knives and so good value, but it is time for him to go. Howard was at least a good longterm pick up, but when you look at our overall imports it smacks of no coordinated idea of what they are trying to achieve, beyond an over inflated idea that we were somehow ready to play finals, and to try and top up now and this has led to ongoing poor recruiting. Last seasons batch of top ups in Frawley and Co was a dismal failure.

We also just do not develop our young talent well enough. Acres is now showing the talent at Freo that we hoped that he would at St Kilda.

And, in the interim, as far as I am concerned, you bunch of catastrophising whinging snowflake moaners can take a running jump.

Rather than just look at one game you need to look 1/ at our overall season and 2/ our long-term trend.

Both are not good. But it is not just our list, it is our coaching and gameplan. It is our recruiting where there seems to be no longterm plan to build a team that just gets better and batter, but rather just seems to grab random players.

However while our playing lists lacks, the gameplan and game strategies are dismal. If you disagree please spell out our gameplan as I dot know anyone who has any ide what our players are meant to be doing. David Rath, the "strategic guru" has been a bust. I think since he arrived that we have gone backwards. Ratts needs to get him removed, as otherwise Ratts might as well also pack up and go.


Extending Ratts may or may not have been a good idea. But to do it mid-seas after a relatively easy first half fixture where while we were wining games, we were mainly doing it through one quarter bursts was just madness, and lacking in all logical though.


Ratts like Richo seems to be a good bloke, but like Richo seems to have had no ability to get the players playing well in a systematic way, and for the majority of the game.


POINTS FOR THE FUTURE.- WE NEED TO LOOK FORWARD AND UNDERSTAND THAT JUST TOPPING UP NOW WILL NOT WORK AS WE HAVE TOO MANY FLAWS.

We need to acknowledge what you mentioned above, that our midfield is not good enough. But we also need to go about improving it in a longterm systematic way.

Getting Windy and Owens was a slice of drafting luck this season. Though the jury is still out on whether they will make it or not. Look around at most of the other clubs and they have gained better young players than us. So while some are backslapping about finding several likely kids, most other clubs are doing this year in, year out. We are not.

You mention that we do not have enough mids. This is true, but yet year in year our the club keeps going for too many small forwards, or HBs that they hope may become mids.


Our recruiting and drafting overall remains a mish mash. The club needs to acknowledge that Freo, Blues, Gold Coast (due to AFL largesse) have all now assembled good young quality lists that are likely to accelerate away from us.

The reality is that we need start a fresh. Yes we have some good players of the right age, but no where near enough.


Our coaching in terms of how players are meant to play is a sheer mystery to me. Ratts looks to have on match day lost the players.

We seemed to have replaced one nice bloke who could not get the team to to play in a systematic and effective way, for a clone.


Paddy did look good, but the reality is that his time has come. Too many get excited by his occasional great tap out the back, when the reality is that our mids mainly play poorly when his the No 1 ruck. Yes Marshall has had injury issues, but we now need to play him as the No1 Ruck so that he can get better and better in the position.

We need to think longterm. We are not going to win the flag next year and so we need to concentrate now on say winning it in say 4 years.
Who can we find to build on the good players who we have who are Sinclair's age or younger.

Ratt's why not us is just words when the club does not back in up with sound recruiting and sound game plan.

[suss]

Harden TF up the bloody lot of you.

Our undermanned midfield was eclipsed last night by a vastly superior lineup. They were missing some forwards, but that’s always less important than key midfielders, who they had in abundance. On top of that, we were missing a key defender, who I think most fans (except perhaps BM) now recognise as being a much more important player than they realised.

All this crap about game plans cannot disguise the fact that we have a terribly weak midfield, made even worse last night by the absence of Ross (another massively underrated player). It wouldn’t matter what game plan we might have tried last night: the game was a mismatch. Our only hope was that the Dogs would be off their game. Didn’t happen.

Our laughably weak midfield isn’t the fault of our current coaching staff or our current administration: it’s a dilemma their predecessors put them in. The solution is not going to be wholesale sackings. You could sack all the favourite whipping boys and it wouldn’t make the midfield one bit stronger. You can criticise Gresham all you like but, in the absence of any other midfield attacking threats, it’s an easy task for opponents to snuff him out.

Ratts isn’t perhaps the greatest coach on earth, but he’s not the worst either. Give him the cattle and he’ll do better. Getting them will be the difficult part. Owens and Windhager give some hope. I don’t think Byrnes or Bytel are going to amount to much. We somehow need to trade for better talent.

And, in the interim, as far as I am concerned, you bunch of catastrophising whinging snowflake moaners can take a running jump.

Couldn’t agree more. Imagine our team with one change - add Petracca. We’re a 5 goal a game better side. Then replace Billings with one of Bontempelli, De Goey or Cripps. Then we’re a top four side.

Our drafting was woeful for +10 years and this is the result.

Very, very hard to fix overnight.

[The Fireman]

I’m whingeing that we don’t have a midfield. I’m also whingeing about you whingeing about Whingers

[saintsRrising]

Couldn’t agree more. Imagine our team with one change - add Petracca. We’re a 5 goal a game better side. Then replace Billings with one of Bontempelli, De Goey or Cripps. Then we’re a top four side.

Our drafting was woeful for +10 years and this is the result.

Very, very hard to fix overnight.

Sorry, but they are interwined. Though as per my post above improving our drafting and trading is vital.
Our problem, is not one problem, but is a combination of problems.

Ratts is clearly happy to go along with a drafting/trading strategy based on too many instant fixes and one year top ups that have not worked out.

[ace]

Time for a CLEAN OUT

A clean out of the recruitment department.
If your recruitment department is not elite you can't win a premiership.
Early draft picks are not the solution.
Getting the gift of early draft picks makes recruiters jobs easier but they need to hit the right target.
You must get the very best every time, not just good.
No excuses, also participated at a draft is useless.
You have to understand what has made Bontempelli better than Billings and ensure next time you get Bontempelli
You can't waste No1 draft picks you must get the very best player not a good player, the second best player is not good enough.

Start with a review of why the very best picks were not made.
What traits were overlooked, don't ask me, that is the job of the very best recruiters.
How did Billings get picked ahead of Bontempelli, McCartin picked ahead of Petracca.
How did Hugh Goddard get picked, you can't waste second round picks.
If they can't work out why, they can't nail the picks in the future, then off with their heads.

St Kilda has tolerated mediocrity in recruiting for way to long.
Recruiters must be elite to make elite selections.

Get Petracca and Bontempelli right and St Kilda supporters get a team worthy of their support.
If those picks are not perfect St Kilda supporters are condemned to frustration for at least another decade.

[Vortex]

let's not overcomplicate the discussion, this form slump is squarely on our spud players, we are about 10 to 12 short. King and Gresham are our biggest spuds, is it no surprise our midfield and forward line are a shambles and these two spuds are meant to represent the future in those two parts of the ground. We will not go forward while King is our marquee player and Gresham is lauded as the future of our midfield. Yes there are a heap of other spuds but it has become apparent the young spuds who we are building a team around are not going to be flag type players. Time to take the rose coloured glasses off and get savage with list management.

[SaintDippa]

Go hard all you want on the list, unless the players are taught to play footy that wins games you're stuffed. All the top slides are structured and move the footy forward quick.
Last night we were smashed due to low footy IQ coaching.

[Teflon]

Whatever you say oh enlightenment one….

Complaining about the whiners.

Just priceless……

Om

Om

Yeah it’s funny stuff but oh so predictable and same drivel
Saints dish up more pathetic dribble on field
Supporters rightly react
24 hrs later….out come the “blue sky brigade” screaming …”.its got nothing to do with Brett…..for the past 3 years he mustve been busy doing other stuff..”

By end this week you’ll start to read on here..
“Actually I dont think we were that bad….a few good bounce of the balls…or a few of those junk time goals go through and we are right in it!”
Rinse repeat till next week
We just accept mediocrity
We don’t demand excellence
People don’t like facts
Our Board signed a coach WAY too early off a poor body of evidence who has us in exactly the same position 3 years into his tenure as Alan Richardson and playing a style of game plan that can’t transition a footy , bombs on forwards heads ….his only “big” trick is to put Membrey behind the ball late in games…..awesome moves Brett just awesome….how about switching up that Shyte midfield last night with say a Sinclsir ?? When the game needed to be won in the first???? …nice bloke , dud coach…2 more years of him.
Our recruiting of money ball types like Jones, Butler, Higgins, Wood (even Ryder/Crouch who have been good) has blown up in our faces…
Because we are now left in a situation where we are not not good enough to play finals and not bad enough to be North (yet)…..just where you don’t want to be as a club…no man’s land and back in the wilderness
We badly lack genuine class but who would want to come to a club going backwards run like this??
Lobb apparently us/Dogs have been into him…he’s already chosen Dogs…..smart….he’ll learn much more off Bevo (who shredded Rattens game plan with ease) than off Brett
Club needs a clean out - too many “nice boys” down there slapping each other on the back sipping latte’s
The thing that genuine irks me….
In a time we have record members
When costs are skyrocketing …
These millionaire frauds take the hard earned members dollars….treat us like idiots and go and re-sign Brett and do they really give a Shyte about us members who invest every week cause we actually give a Shyte???
Nup. Lethlean will still get in his Audi and ring his private school mates that he goes sailing with on weekends and he knows he’ll get a promotion as CEO and probably get his old desk back at AFL HQ if he hangs on long enough
We are being treated like fools and idiots like Mehebabblelots just “sheep” along
Embarrassing

[Sainter_Dad]

let's not overcomplicate the discussion, this form slump is squarely on our spud players, we are about 10 to 12 short. King and Gresham are our biggest spuds, is it no surprise our midfield and forward line are a shambles and these two spuds are meant to represent the future in those two parts of the ground. We will not go forward while King is our marquee player and Gresham is lauded as the future of our midfield. Yes there are a heap of other spuds but it has become apparent the young spuds who we are building a team around are not going to be flag type players. Time to take the rose coloured glasses off and get savage with list management.

So in a score line of 7.14 - King kicking 2.1 is our issue - I saw one piece of play resulting in a goal WHERE THE BALL WAS KICKED TO HIS ADVANTAGE (I assume deliberately - but could have been a miskick) and he easily out pointed the opposition

[Sainter_Dad]

Go hard all you want on the list, unless the players are taught to play footy that wins games you're stuffed. All the top slides are structured and move the footy forward quick.
Last night we were smashed due to low footy IQ coaching.

Mooney said as much last night - he basically said we were soft at training and so played that way - Geelong turned up at training expecting to be smashed - and they played that way

Time for this New Age love in to stop!

[Vortex]

let's not overcomplicate the discussion, this form slump is squarely on our spud players, we are about 10 to 12 short. King and Gresham are our biggest spuds, is it no surprise our midfield and forward line are a shambles and these two spuds are meant to represent the future in those two parts of the ground. We will not go forward while King is our marquee player and Gresham is lauded as the future of our midfield. Yes there are a heap of other spuds but it has become apparent the young spuds who we are building a team around are not going to be flag type players. Time to take the rose coloured glasses off and get savage with list management.

So in a score line of 7.14 - King kicking 2.1 is our issue - I saw one piece of play resulting in a goal WHERE THE BALL WAS KICKED TO HIS ADVANTAGE (I assume deliberately - but could have been a miskick) and he easily out pointed the opposition

It's his attitude, it's now permeated the wider list, even the captain looked like Kingy last night, sooky and disinterested, lacking enthusiasm, unwilling to be team player and do team things. Is a very big problem poor attitude.

[asiu]

i have no idea how this helps re our footy side

but

there is no going backwards
to the good old days

that environment no longer exists

go with the flow jo or perish



https://youtube.com/shorts/gu9htLeElv8?feature=share

[Teflon]

Go hard all you want on the list, unless the players are taught to play footy that wins games you're stuffed. All the top slides are structured and move the footy forward quick.
Last night we were smashed due to low footy IQ coaching.

Spot on
These jokers saying it’s all list…nothing to do with coaching
Are embarrassing
Ofcourse we are carrying too many spud players but they weren’t spuds at 8-3 when everyone was lauding our depth????
At least at that point there was effort??????
We are not even turning up to games FFS
Players are not believing in what they’re being sold
Sure, foot skills are deplorable but the ENTIRE list is going backwards
THATS on the coaching absolutely
They have zero confidence in the game plan you can see it
Max King would be a star under a top 4, we’ll coached club - actually he’d be a star under any of the other top 8 sides
We will ruin him cause our moron coaching staff can’t develop a game plan that plays to this side strengths
Even Steele onfield looks like he doesn’t want to be there
Somethings rotten and I think it’s Ratten and his Hawk band merry men OR maybe Tony74 is right….maybe Brett has no ideas and he’s handed over the keys to Rath and the players are totally confused???
Rath did not have that same level of say at Hawks under Clarkson I know that….
Cause Clarko knew what HE wanted
Brett just wants everyone to “be nice to each other”
Joke

[cwrcyn]

The seeds of our current woes were sewn 5 to 7 years ago. It's easy to look at the past couple of years and point the finger, but these things are many years in the making

Our current list manager and recruiters have done a pretty good job given the hand they've been dealt, but the abysmal failures of Elshaug have hurt us. He had opportunities to snare genuine midfield talent through the draft over a few years and just got it wrong

All the better teams have one or two star midfielders. Guys who can light up a game, or just plough through like a high speed steamroller.

Where is our Bontompelli, Petracca, Oliver, Cripps, Dangerfield, Walsh, etc?

Yes, recent performances have been woeful, but we need to be honest with ourselves. We are a mid range team that has deficiencies that need to be addressed. Sometimes things click and sometimes we're off the boil. Until we bridge the talent gap it does matter who's coaching us because a premiership is just not attainable with this list as it stands right now

But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Good work has been done, but more is needed. It's hard to be patient when we have to witness these horrible losses, but reality is reality