Wealthy St Kilda figure Gerry Ryan and former coach Grant Thomas endorse Larry Benge to join Saints board

[Life Long Saint]

I agree with drafting for talent ...

I'm not talking about scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Obviously they will need to be talented.

And if we're talking about a ranking difference of 2-3 places, you go with whoever you need.

I mean Patrick Dangerfield was a pick 10, for instance.
Did we end up with a better player when we went for McEvoy?

This is not an exact science.

You have to use your nous - and at this stage, if a talented kid that meets our needs is available, I reckon we'd be mad not to pick him.

We seem to follow the mock drafts ... here's a 2007 mock draft where Dangerfield was ranked #14. He's the type of player I'm talking about - a dashing midfielder!!
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ ... ft.397701/

Getting good KPP and rucks are much harder than getting a midfielder.
There are very few exceptions to the rule that your key talls are what you build your team around.
Melbourne just built theirs from the backline. They went out and traded for May and Lever. They recruited Gawn, McDonald, Fritsch, Petracca, and Oliver. That constitutes your spine. Thats what you build the team around.
Richmond did it with a solid set of key defenders and one key forward initially, then added another. They had a solid spine. That allowed Martin to be the match winner. But Dusty wasn't always that. It took him years to become that player.

I can see why we were enamoured with McCartin at the time. Riewoldt was in the twilight and we needed a replacement key forward in the years to come.
I think that you always take the best available player regardless of your immediate need. You can tweak the list in the following years to trade for immediate needs - especially with free agency.

[samoht]

I can see why we were enamoured with McCartin at the time. Riewoldt was in the twilight and we needed a replacement key forward in the years to come.
I think that you always take the best available player regardless of your immediate need. You can tweak the list in the following years to trade for immediate needs - especially with free agency.

Our spine is okay - better than most teams.
We have a good ruck.

Our forward line is looking strong.
If you have a strong midfield, you'll keep the ball forward of centre and the pressure will be on the opposing team.

We need a dynamic, dashing midfielder or two now - to strenthen the engine room. We need more run and a couple of skilfull playmakers - that's what we lack most.
If we win or break even in the midfield, given the way our forward line is shaping up - we will win 8 games out of 10, and we'll be a real chance.

[Life Long Saint]

I can see why we were enamoured with McCartin at the time. Riewoldt was in the twilight and we needed a replacement key forward in the years to come.
I think that you always take the best available player regardless of your immediate need. You can tweak the list in the following years to trade for immediate needs - especially with free agency.

Our spine is okay - better than most teams.
We have a good ruck.

Our forward line is looking strong.
If you have a strong midfield, you'll keep the ball forward of centre and the pressure will be on the opposing team.

We need a dynamic, dashing midfielder or two now - to strenthen the engine room.

Is our spine OK?
We have Howard at FB, King at FF, Marshall/Ryder in the ruck and Steele in the centre.
Not sure who is our Key CHB or CHF. We have some handy tallish defenders and forwards but nobody that is a CHF or CHB.
We have some midfielders coming through.
I can tell you that drafting an 18yo kid will not strengthen the engine room in 2022/23. That won't happen until 2024.
If we needed a dynamic and dashing midfielder, then we should have traded for one. But I challenge you to name a player that fits that bill that was available this year.
We need the best available 18yo kid at pick 9. It almost doesn't matter what position they play.
We're already getting two midfielders with our NGA kids (assuming they don't go inside the top 20).

[samoht]

Hopefully that best available 18 year old will be a dashing midfielder, then - because that's what we need most.
Bailey Smith has done well from the word go - I can't see why he and Walsh should be the exceptions.

We need to get back to the good old days, when we had running players like Joel Smith, Aussie Jones, Harvey, Heath Black, Winmar, etc.. lighting up the place.
Everitt and Joel Smith's injury late in that season (can't remember the year), is why we missed out on winning the flag.

Melbourne this year is us back then minus the injuries - full of dash.

You won't need an imposing CHB if you keep the ball forward of centre. Wilkie will do.

And our forward line offers a lot of marking options .... CHF isn't what it used to be in the old days.
A forward line with a lot of options trumps one that is focussed on one or 2 key position players.

[B.M]

We drafted for Need when we took McEvoy

It was a mistake

Although he was a good player

A bigger mistake was trading him after 5 years of development though

[samoht]

The type of player we need most and the best available player are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[saynta]

Hopefully that best available 18 year old will be a dashing midfielder, then - because that's what we need most.
Bailey Smith has done well from the word go - I can't see why he and Walsh should be the exceptions.

We need to get back to the good old days, when we had running players like Joel Smith, Aussie Jones, Harvey, Heath Black, Winmar, etc.. lighting up the place.
Everitt and Joel Smith's injury late in that season (can't remember the year), is why we missed out on winning the flag.

Melbourne this year is us back then minus the injuries - full of dash.

You won't need an imposing CHB if you keep the ball forward of centre. Wilkie will do.

And our forward line offers a lot of marking options .... CHF isn't what it used to be in the old days.
A forward line with a lot of options trumps one that is focussed on one or 2 key position players.

It was 1997, a year I will never forget , unfortunately.

[B.M]

What about

Riccutio (8 time AA, Brownlow medallist) and Modra (Coleman Medallist)

Adelaide had key injuries too

[saynta]

What about

Riccutio (8 time AA, Brownlow medallist) and Modra (Coleman Medallist)

Adelaide had key injuries too

If Modra had played, then maybe that halfwit wouldn't have been able to kick all those 4th quarter goals.

[samoht]

What we have to understand is that Dangerfield was overlooked and was the better player ... so what are we following at the end, hunches?
Clearly, this is not an exact science.
McEvoy was ranked higher in the mock drafts too.

So, we did take the "better" player, when we drafted McEvoy.


The thing is, there might be another Dangerfield out there ..another dashing midfielder available who will be exactly what we need plus be the best player.

The two things are not mutually exclusive, necessarily.

We need some recruiting nous, that's all.

[Life Long Saint]

What we have to understand is that Dangerfield was overlooked and was the better player ... so what are we following at the end, hunches?
Clearly, this is not an exact science.
McEvoy was ranked higher in the mock drafts too.

So, we did take the "better" player, when we drafted McEvoy.


The thing is, there might be another Dangerfield out there ..another dashing midfielder available who will be exactly what we need plus be the best player.

The two things are not mutually exclusive, necessarily.

We need some recruiting nous, that's all.

It's not just nous. A lot of it is you don't know the player they will develop into.
When Fraser Gehrig was in the draft, every team passed on him. He was a big unit that had outside run. But every team let him go...Every team except the reigning premiers. West Coast took him with the last pick in the 1st round.
Now drafting has come a long way since the early 90's but you can only draft them on the data you have available.
Jack Watts had all the attributes of a great footballer. Being a big unit makes the game easier in under age games. He lacked the drive to work through the mental toughness to match his skills.

Sam Fisher was a gun for us...How late did we get him? Pick 55? He was recruited as a key forward.
If Geelong drafted for the immediate needs then Tom Hawkins would have been a bust. It took him the better part of five years to be effective.
Brendon Goddard took a while to become the champion player he turned into.
You point to Dangerfield...It took him three seasons to become consistently effective.
He deuted in 2008 and wasn't until 2011 where he had his breakout year.

You also point to Bailey Smith. Should we have taken him instead of Max King?
Smith is made to look better becauase of the midfield depth the Dogs have. He can play cameos and not get a hard tag because there are at least four midfielders better than him that warrant a tag.
I bet the Doggies would have loved us to take Smith and leave King fall to them.

[samoht]

You mention the Bulldog's midfield depth ... and as we know the Demons showed the Bulldog's midfield up in the GF.

So, we obviously need to bridge that gap.

Now that we have King, and our forward line is shaping up well, we may need to look at bolstering our midfield?

If we have the choice of two equally talented young players with our first draft pick and one happens to be a running midfielder/playmaker 185cm and 78kg, the other a skinny, key position player ... 196cm tall and 73kg, who would you take?
Assuming we have rated them as the best 2 available players.
It's just a hypothetical, but who knows which players we will be actually choosing between when it comes to our pick.

[Mr Magic]

Whoever we select at pick 9-11, he is unlikely to have a great impact on our team in 2022.

[samoht]

We have to start somewhere.

[Mr Magic]

We have to start somewhere.

I've got no issue with drafting raw kids - I just don't have any expectation that they're going to impact the team much in their first season.
And therefore they're not going to improve us much in their first season - unlike a mid traded in like Crouch etc.

It would seem to me that the List people have decided we have sufficient (midfield) talent for 2022 as they didn't seem to actively pursue any mids to trade in.

[Life Long Saint]

It would seem to me that the List people have decided we have sufficient (midfield) talent for 2022 as they didn't seem to actively pursue any mids to trade in.

Not sure there were any available in our price range.
In fact, we traded one out and forced another to take a pay cut.

[Mr Magic]

It would seem to me that the List people have decided we have sufficient (midfield) talent for 2022 as they didn't seem to actively pursue any mids to trade in.

Not sure there were any available in our price range.
In fact, we traded one out and forced another to take a pay cut.

IMHO (no inside knowledge) Dunstan's career at St Kilda was over as soon as they got Crouch. Maybe he could have stayed if Ross decided to go elsewhere.
I also think they've seen enough of Byrnes/Bytel/Connolly to think that between them they're going to get the midfield improvement for 2022 that they're looking for.

[Moods]

Is our spine OK?
We have Howard at FB, King at FF, Marshall/Ryder in the ruck and Steele in the centre.
Not sure who is our Key CHB or CHF. We have some handy tallish defenders and forwards but nobody that is a CHF or CHB.

[/quote]

Our fwd line is looking very good as far as I'm concerned. When we have a full team, Marshall playing CHF and Ryder resting down there are very potent. Membery is a terrific moving target and so is young Charman. Marshall, Charman, Membery can all float through there. So we have 4-5 very good targets with King. It's nearly as good as anyone's fwd line in the league.

It's our backline that is the issue. Whilst Wilkie is incredibly game, he is really a 3rd back and hasn't the physical size to be a key back. Howard is the perfect CHB but then we really needed Frawley to stay injury free (probably a pipe dream) to play on the Hawkins, Dixons, Naughtons, etc I reckon 2 x blokes 200cm or thereabouts is what you're looking for. Hence my annoyance at Carlisle. It's exactly what he was recruited for and never really delivered. My own personal opinion is that if we ever do get Bing, he should be played at CHB. He can switch fwd as last resorts but he's more required down back with his physical attributes.

[samoht]

What makes the Demons formidable, is it their key backs, their key forwards or their awesome midfield and their run and skills in general all over the ground?

Fritch, Petracca and Salem stood out.
The Demons had too much run and zip at the end.

And even for the Bulldogs, Treloar and Bontempelli managed to kick 3 goals each.

It's all these running players that play the biggest role.

Not so much the spine.

[Mr Magic]

What makes the Demons formidable, is it their key backs, their key forwards or their awesome midfield and their run and skills in general all over the ground?

Fritch, Petracca and Salem stood out.
The Demons had too much run and zip at the end.

And even for the Bulldogs, Treloar and Bontempelli managed to kick 3 goals each.

It's all these running players that play the biggest role.

Not so much the spine.

Maybe so, but would Melbourne have made the GF without Gawn?

[samoht]

Gawn is an important part of their midfield.

He's not part of the spine, though.

it's all the pesky Demon running players, their ferocious tackling and pressure they brought to bear that got the job done.

[skeptic]

Is our spine OK?
We have Howard at FB, King at FF, Marshall/Ryder in the ruck and Steele in the centre.
Not sure who is our Key CHB or CHF. We have some handy tallish defenders and forwards but nobody that is a CHF or CHB.

Our fwd line is looking very good as far as I'm concerned. When we have a full team, Marshall playing CHF and Ryder resting down there are very potent. Membery is a terrific moving target and so is young Charman. Marshall, Charman, Membery can all float through there. So we have 4-5 very good targets with King. It's nearly as good as anyone's fwd line in the league.

It's our backline that is the issue. Whilst Wilkie is incredibly game, he is really a 3rd back and hasn't the physical size to be a key back. Howard is the perfect CHB but then we really needed Frawley to stay injury free (probably a pipe dream) to play on the Hawkins, Dixons, Naughtons, etc I reckon 2 x blokes 200cm or thereabouts is what you're looking for. Hence my annoyance at Carlisle. It's exactly what he was recruited for and never really delivered. My own personal opinion is that if we ever do get Bing, he should be played at CHB. He can switch fwd as last resorts but he's more required down back with his physical attributes.
[/quote]

I think Ratts is a little off the mark with our defence

Howard is a good key back… but I tend to agree that he’s only better suited to CHB. His strength is less spoiling/close checking and a bit more power mark, run off etc.
All in all, not as good aerially as I’d like. That’s not necessarily a bad thing when you had him there with another big guy like Carlisle that could pick up some of that slack either dropping back or assist in maintaining the structure.

100% agree that Wilkie is wasted as our second key back… forcing him to be that bit more accountable really takes away his ability to be offensively damaging which he is better at than Highmore.

Highmore I’m going to gloss over… I don’t have a good read on him yet in terms of what’s best.

All in all… I still think we a Nathan Brown role type short.

The rest of it feels cloudy to me…

Coffield should be a mobile running back that can go up in a contest and use his marking as a weapon rather than a key feature of his game.
Playing too tall, heavy and accountable this year

He was playing the role that I think Webster is more suited to and Jimmy tends to be playmaker more often then I like. His disposal is decent but can be iffy.

Paton needs to be the stopper for the medium smalls… hopefully he comes back and doesn’t miss a beat

Sinclair = full marks

Hunter I love in defence because as a playmaker and leader/organiser he’s the best… but there’s not enough roles for all of them and he seems to be the one that needs/has the skills to be an elite mid.
Does he have the fitness though

It all feels very jumbled for mine

Paton, Howard, Webster
Sinclair, Wilkie, Coffield/Highmore

It’s a decent 6. I don’t know that it’s an elite defence. Don’t quite know how to make it better

[Devilhead]

Melbourne - games played this year

Petracca - 25 out of 25
Oliver - 25 out of 25
Gawn - 25 out of 25
Lever - 25 out of 25
Rivers - 25 out of 25
Pickett - 25 out of 25
Brayshaw - 25 out of 25
Neal Bullen - 25 out of 25
Jordan - 25 out of 25
Salem - 24 out of 25
Langdon - 24 out of 25
Fritsch - 24 out of 25
Jackson - 24 out of 25
May - 23 out of 25
Mcdonald - 23 out of 25

Their only big loss was Tomlinson who played the first 6 games ...... his replacement Petty played the other 19

[freely]

Melbourne - games played this year

Petracca - 25 out of 25
Oliver - 25 out of 25
Gawn - 25 out of 25
Lever - 25 out of 25
Rivers - 25 out of 25
Pickett - 25 out of 25
Brayshaw - 25 out of 25
Neal Bullen - 25 out of 25
Jordan - 25 out of 25
Salem - 24 out of 25
Langdon - 24 out of 25
Fritsch - 24 out of 25
Jackson - 24 out of 25
May - 23 out of 25
Mcdonald - 23 out of 25

Their only big loss was Tomlinson who played the first 6 games ...... his replacement Petty played the other 19

Post if the year.

[Impatient Sainter]

Melbourne - games played this year

Petracca - 25 out of 25
Oliver - 25 out of 25
Gawn - 25 out of 25
Lever - 25 out of 25
Rivers - 25 out of 25
Pickett - 25 out of 25
Brayshaw - 25 out of 25
Neal Bullen - 25 out of 25
Jordan - 25 out of 25
Salem - 24 out of 25
Langdon - 24 out of 25
Fritsch - 24 out of 25
Jackson - 24 out of 25
May - 23 out of 25
Mcdonald - 23 out of 25

Their only big loss was Tomlinson who played the first 6 games ...... his replacement Petty played the other 19

Yep the continuity with your best players is critical. We had nothing like that this year, if we were that fortunate in 2022 a top 4 spot is a certainty IMO.