A historical look and hot take on a ruck strategy

[skeptic]

Thinking about the ruck situation…

In my opinion we’ve stumbled onto the correct combination of what a dominant, premiership calibre ruck is supposed to look like:
1 – Mobile, contested mark, mongrel’ish around the ground monster and possibly play a key post for patches (Marshall)

1 – Aerial, athletic tap ruck that stops opposition dominance in the middle and can sit up forward for patches and punish opposition if they fail to give him the respect he deserves (Ryder).

The failure to understand the need for this structure has absolutely destroyed our last 10 years IMO. Think about it:
We had McEvoy (in the Marshall mould) who was average in the middle put a pack marking monster and Stanley (in the Ryder mould) that has a great leap and could have sat forward. That would have been a potent combination and we gave them away for peanuts due to their deficiencies.

Likewise… we had Hickey who had mongrel in his prime and was decent around the ground and weak in the centre, who we played as a sole ruck with Bruce as relief. Then we had Longer who was allegedly great a hit outs but lacked around the ground. They rarely played together.

Didn’t work.

Outside of the you kind of need a reserve of both… one ready to play (Hunter who is more in the Ryder mode in terms of style [note mould, not talent) and one that is developing ala Heath who is more like the Marshall style I think. The confusing point here is that given Marshall has 7-8 years at least… the depth balance should be the other way but whatever.

The key problem is that Ryder is 34 or something, Hunter really ideally needs to be upgraded and Heath isn’t ready. It’s a potentially season derailing problem.

So how do we fix it. IMO, history has provided us with a clear blue print.

To emphasise the point, I thought it was worth going back all the way to 1997 (about the time I can properly remember football and looking at ruck movements).
** Note – A number of rookie names I don’t remember so apologies if I missed a few.

We started with Everite, Vidovic, Cook, Elliot and Sierakowski on the list. Stewart Loewe was also around as kind of a pinch hitting ruck but was more of the around the ground pack mark type that was a weapon up forward

- Vidovic of course went down in 1997 and never came back
- Cook who was way older than I remember, known for his emergency call up was gone within 2 years, mediocre
- Tim Elliot was more KPP/utility then pure ruck started getting games in the Watson era and was cut in the mass cleanout at the end of 2000
- Sierakowski who was more utility, found his grove in the ruck late 2000 but was traded to WCE post that year as part of the Gehrig down, was knocked out and did his knee in one play and never recovered

Rucking in this period was all about Peter Spider Everite who was a star albeit a somewhat wayward one at times… but he played with us until the end of 02 or 03. Point is… he was the best of them for a while.

Here’s what we did over that period onwards

1997 & 1998 - No ruck recruits

1999
- Damian Monkhurst (pick #13 in PSD [remember the PSD was a bigger deal back then)

2000
- Justin Koschitzke (pick #2) – harder to grade as more forward than ruck but was electric in the ruck at times until his mobility issues from 05 onwards.
- Matthew Capuano was traded in from North for Joey McLaren
- Chris Oliver #1 in the rookie draft

2001
- Trent Knobel traded in in exchange for picks #21 & #45

2002
- Barry Brooks traded from Port in exchange for picks #6 & #31

2003 No ruck recruits

2004
- Cain Ackland recruited with pick #33

2005
- Michael Rix recruited pick #49

2006
- Michael Gardiner traded in for picks #43 & #59
- Matthew Clarke traded in for pick #7 in the PSD

2007
- Ben McEvoy drafted with pick #9
- Steven King traded in with pick #90

2008
- Rhys Stanley drafted with pick #47
- Blake McGrath recruited with pick #84 in the rookie draft

2009
- Adam Pattison secured with pick #64

2010 & 2011 No ruck recruits

2012
- Tom Hickey traded in essentially for a 1st round pick though it’s more complicated than that (we sent 3 picks for 2 back with upgrades)
- Lewis Pierce drafted with pick #75

2013
- Billy Longer and pick #48 traded in for picks #25 & 41
- Jason Holmes taken with pick #36 from the rookie draft

2014 & 2015 – No ruck recruits

2016
- Marshall taken with pick #10 in the rookie draft

2017 – No ruck recruits

2018
- Sam Alabakis as a Cat B pick

2019
- Paddy Ryder was the steak knives in the trade that got us Dougal Howard

2020
- Recruited Shaun McKernan and Paul Hunter

So our greatest hits since 1999 with roughly 23 stabs at it
1. Rowan Marshall off the rookie list
2. Michael Gardiner in exchange for #43 & #59
3. Paddy Ryder as steak knives in a trade
4. Kosi with pick #2 although I’m not entirely sure it’s fair calling him a ruck success
5. McEvoy with pick #9 – great recruit but not for us
6. Stanley with pick #48 – respectable career but not with us
7. Hickey (essentially a first rounder) – had a good year with us

Conclusion –
Our best move in 20 years was off the rookie list and was with picks over 40 (essentially).

It seems to me that wasting decent picks on a ruck is a complete an utter WASTE OF TIME and RESOURCES. You’re just wasting what you have on an extreme longshot. In fact… take it a step further: trading picks/players for semi rated developing rucks is also extremely fraught with danger.

I for one don’t want to see us ever both attempting to recruit a ruck with a pre-pick#50 ever again unless it’s a clear freak type prospect like Naitanui.

Rather than constantly topping up and topping up and topping up…
IMO the hot take is pool the draft picks, get the wallet out, and sell the farm one year and just throw the kitchen sink at one of the best in the business with the view of getting 6-7 years of top level service from them.
After that, you may as well just troll through the bush leagues hoping to snap up a diamond in the rough with a late/rookie, which frankly has provided as much value for rucks for us as anything else.

[Vortex]

If only Padddy was 5 to 7 years younger...

[shanegrambeau]

Well done Skeptic. Nice list.

I've got no wisdom to add whatsoever.

Looks to me that rucks are now like goal keepers.

Journeyman. Play til they are forty.

Maybe the rule changes are helping them limp on for a few seasons more.

Perhaps Paddy R will play three more years?

I can't think of star ruckman in star teams. Who was ruck for Brisbane during their reign? No idea. Geelong? West Coast? Hawthorn? Big Boy? Was he a star? Greg Dear?

I do think that way back to GT, as soon as stats started to be a 'thing', people quickly noticed that winning the tap didn't mean winning the clearance. But it was faulty logic that led to coaches downgrading the ruck's importance. So what if we 'win' a scrubby clearance following an opposition tap.

Looking at Max Gawn you have to ask..damn it...like having a 19th player on the ground. Who happens to be a beanpole with good hands!

[Trev from the Bush]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club. And a similar Brian Mynott clone to do the heavy lifting would also be handy.

[saynta]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club.

We already have him.

[St Plugger]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club. And a similar Brian Mynott clone to do the heavy lifting would also be handy.

If Only!!!!

[Trev from the Bush]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club.

We already have him.

Yes, I really like Paul Hunter.

[Banger9798]

Great post
More like a dissertation...whose you're supervising Professor?

[cwrcyn]

Anatomy of a train wreck. Nearly 25 years of recruiting and we've drafted one good young ruckman (Marshall), one mediocre tap ruckman (McEvoy), and one athlete we thought might be able to play ruck (Stanley)

[Sainter_Dad]

Rix Rox Rux!

[Sainter_Dad]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club.

Anatomy of a train wreck. Nearly 25 years of recruiting and we've drafted one good young ruckman (Marshall), one mediocre tap ruckman (McEvoy), and one athlete we thought might be able to play ruck (Stanley)

Apparently - Max Heath is a train wreck - to the opposition - I have heard he is hard at it - see ball - punch ball type of kid who does not mind dishing out some 'pain'.

[Trev from the Bush]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club.

Anatomy of a train wreck. Nearly 25 years of recruiting and we've drafted one good young ruckman (Marshall), one mediocre tap ruckman (McEvoy), and one athlete we thought might be able to play ruck (Stanley)

Apparently - Max Heath is a train wreck - to the opposition - I have heard he is hard at it - see ball - punch ball type of kid who does not mind dishing out some 'pain'.

Quick, get him a blonde wig!

[Impatient Sainter]

Hopefully Max Heath becomes a decent player and puts an end to the rot. 25 years with 3 decent recruits is a pretty damning stat, is it any wonder we are still waiting for that ever elusive flag.

[saynta]

If anybody is aware of a young, taller version of Carl Ditterich that is available please contact the club.

Anatomy of a train wreck. Nearly 25 years of recruiting and we've drafted one good young ruckman (Marshall), one mediocre tap ruckman (McEvoy), and one athlete we thought might be able to play ruck (Stanley)

Apparently - Max Heath is a train wreck - to the opposition - I have heard he is hard at it - see ball - punch ball type of kid who does not mind dishing out some 'pain'.

Quick, get him a blonde wig!

No need. He was born a blond.

[Russman]

I had forgotten how bad the Barry Brooks one was,
- Barry Brooks traded from Port in exchange for picks #6 & #31

[magnifisaint]

Rix Rox Rux!

Rix Rux Sux

[samuraisaint]

Marshall plays first ruck every week.
Nurse Paddy through. Lots of rest. We need him badly - watch the final against the Dogs again and just see how influential he was. They had no answer for him.
When either of them need a rest play Battle in the ruck.
Continue to develop Heath in the magoos.
That's develop in the magoos, not languish in the magoos.

[Wayne42]

Marshall plays first ruck every week.
Nurse Paddy through. Lots of rest. We need him badly - watch the final against the Dogs again and just see how influential he was. They had no answer for him.
When either of them need a rest play Battle in the ruck.
Continue to develop Heath in the magoos.
That's develop in the magoos, not languish in the magoos.

I think when either of them need a rest they will play Campbell in the ruck.

[Yorkeys]

I suspect the next development in ruck tactics will be how to combat an opposition dominant tap ruckman e.g. Gawn.

As good as Petracca was I think Gawn is Melbourne's driving force and defensive rock. Bevo is as clever as it comes and could not do anything on the day to stop Dees dominance in GF third quarter with what he had to work with. Gawn is a physical anomaly, like Sandilands, but one to be neutralised if you want to beat Melbourne. (A lot of their players are ok but not so special, a couple are of course and they got the ball a lot).

Arguably we have lost several finals over the journey simply for the lack of ruck depth. GT pretended we didn't need one (lost some tight eliminations), Gardiner, Spider, Lazar from memory all injured at pivotal times so unavailable. Pelchen the fool let McAvoy go as if picking up that quality of big man was just a rookie draft away (dill) and that there was some equivalence in drafting smaller mobile players - who grow on trees pretty much and don't typically contest rucks.

Anyway, it might be that sides have to load up on rucks and rotate them regularly to try to wear down the Gawn's; possibly always have a tall as medi sub? Might have to leave the list one or two short to afford that luxury but I bet Bevo would have loved a Goldstein or Kruezer type in the GF rather than having a Lipinsky or Wallis on the roster but of no practical use in the big game.

I think our current thinking, Paddy, Rowan, Max Heath and Campbell is shrewd and will pay off. Bet they are already looking to shortlist a replacement for Paddy when that sad day comes.

[Leo.J]

Jackson was rucking when the Dees were waltzing out of the front of the centre clearances in the 3rd.

[saynta]

I suspect the next development in ruck tactics will be how to combat an opposition dominant tap ruckman e.g. Gawn.

As good as Petracca was I think Gawn is Melbourne's driving force and defensive rock. Bevo is as clever as it comes and could not do anything on the day to stop Dees dominance in GF third quarter with what he had to work with. Gawn is a physical anomaly, like Sandilands, but one to be neutralised if you want to beat Melbourne. (A lot of their players are ok but not so special, a couple are of course and they got the ball a lot).

Arguably we have lost several finals over the journey simply for the lack of ruck depth. GT pretended we didn't need one (lost some tight eliminations), Gardiner, Spider, Lazar from memory all injured at pivotal times so unavailable. Pelchen the fool let McAvoy go as if picking up that quality of big man was just a rookie draft away (dill) and that there was some equivalence in drafting smaller mobile players - who grow on trees pretty much and don't typically contest rucks.

Anyway, it might be that sides have to load up on rucks and rotate them regularly to try to wear down the Gawn's; possibly always have a tall as medi sub? Might have to leave the list one or two short to afford that luxury but I bet Bevo would have loved a Goldstein or Kruezer type in the GF rather than having a Lipinsky or Wallis on the roster but of no practical use in the big game.

I think our current thinking, Paddy, Rowan, Max Heath and Campbell is shrewd and will pay off. Bet they are already looking to shortlist a replacement for Paddy when that sad day comes.

True, Lazar and Spider were injured for grannie in 1997 leaving the ruckwork to Cooke who was not up to the job, but Lazar didn't play again and was long gone before GT took over.

[Mr Magic]

Jackson was rucking when the Dees were waltzing out of the front of the centre clearances in the 3rd.

I believe that Bevo made a mistake in the box that quarter.
After Melbourne kicked the first goal he should have reverted to the tactic he used the week before of dropping one of his midfielders into a defensive position to stop the demon midfielders from streaming forward from the knockout.
One of the problems with the 6/6/6 rule is you cannot place an extra defender just behind the center square to stop this.
Melbourne won 3 center knockouts in a row and all were similar - demon midfielder streaming forward without confronting a defender.
The bulldogs midfielders didn't do anything to stop this tactic.