Grant Thomas

[Teflon]

Yeah Teffers,

Good to overrule and take Cripps instead of Darling!!!

Good not to play Steven or Lynch

Just great

Lyon was an autocrat

Not healthy as he was self interested, not club interested!!!!

Hello here’s Eric with the late news .,,,
Lyon also wanted speed Peake didn’t boo hoo
If Lyon was an autocrat what was GT - even took to screening players media enquires FFS
Again, Lyon has his way of coaching point is he’s been successful now at 2 AFL clubs leading them into GFs
Again, GT failed to even do AND was an autocrat !!
(If I’m having an autocrat at the club I at least want a chance to win a flag .....can’t win them losing Prelims....ask Port Adelaide).
By the way when you whinge in hindsight (Peake doing same) I don’t recall you screaming Steven or Lynch MUST be played when we were 19-0??????????
Again it’s all wonderful with 20/20 ...

[skeptic]

Honest question Teflon,

Would you agree that there’s a perception out there that in 2009, this rag tag bunch of players that people weren’t expecting much from were coached so brilliantly, they far exceeded what they should have been capable of achieving because of the coaching?

No life’s not that simple
Coaching has an influence for sure but you need personnel
Lyon had it in 09 but I think they were starting to wane in 2010
I’ll ask you one
Do you think the Saints were the best side 2010?

Thanks Teffers,

And to be honest, I think your summation is 100% correct. Where I disagree with you is the narrative.
To my recollection, for years afterwards people pushed the narrative that RL took this ragtag bunch of misfits and through his incredible coaching, achieved results with them that far surpassed what they were reasonably should have been capable. I think the same thing happened at Freo.

It’s that thinking along with his super impressive, unbelievable W/L ratio that makes me trumpet the overrated line.

To me, he had an exceptional list to work with, coached it reasonably well... was exceptional in some areas (structure, plan, leadership, intensity), mediocre in others (development, flexibility, bias) and achieved a reasonable/within expectations result of what he had to work with.


Now in answer to your question...

Ultimately no. Especially not in the second half of the season when Collingwood asserted their dominance and hit their straps. I think we were a clearly top 2 and flirted with the line of being the best team in 2010... and perhaps if we had developed the list better we could have been.
IMO however, we relied far too heavily on our top 6-10 players that seasons and carried a number of others that were seriously down on form as I pointed out earlier (and before that article)... McQualter had a shocking year and didn’t play as many good games as Kent did in 2021, Dempster was out of his depth at that time, Ray’s form dropped, Peake was hit and miss, Gardiner was down, Gram never looked match fit, Eddy was average etc
The philosophy to me was obviously flawed and I think a lot of problems were glaringly obvious.

Oddly enough... I thought his actual match day coaching was a hell of a lot better in 2010 then 09 and I think his performance in the draw was actually really really good compared to the year before

[B.M]

Coaches SHOULD NOT overrule (or even interfere) with recruiting

How many u18 games did Lyon attend

And you DO NOT break a cardinal rule of drafting to appease a coaches current list!!!!

You recruit a player with a view of the playin 12-15 years. The odds of that coach even being a part of the club halfway through a draftees career is slim!!!

Let me ask you a question Teffers
Darling or Cripps?!

Lyon wanted Cripps - I would have said - too fkn bad!!!

The club (not team) is getting the best player available- and that is Darling!!!

[Teflon]

Coaches SHOULD NOT overrule (or even interfere) with recruiting

How many u18 games did Lyon attend

And you DO NOT break a cardinal rule of drafting to appease a coaches current list!!!!

You recruit a player with a view of the playin 12-15 years. The odds of that coach even being a part of the club halfway through a draftees career is slim!!!

Let me ask you a question Teffers
Darling or Cripps?!

Lyon wanted Cripps - I would have said - too fkn bad!!!

The club (not team) is getting the best player available- and that is Darling!!!

Jack Darling (I suspect with Eagles assistance...) made it very clear he wasn’t interested in going anywhere else ...in fact all the wild “bad boy” rumours have been proven utterly false. Point is I don’t think what Lyon or Peake wanted mattered.
I do think Lyon was on the money re lack of leg speed and while Lovett was a disaster you could see the need he was keen to fill.
Many coaches interfere....they’re on contract looking for immediate results....of course they’ll interfere..Thomas did, Richo did and Lyon did to suggest others haven’t also is naive.
Anyway not the key point and not really a tangent I’m interested in

[Teflon]

Honest question Teflon,

Would you agree that there’s a perception out there that in 2009, this rag tag bunch of players that people weren’t expecting much from were coached so brilliantly, they far exceeded what they should have been capable of achieving because of the coaching?

No life’s not that simple
Coaching has an influence for sure but you need personnel
Lyon had it in 09 but I think they were starting to wane in 2010
I’ll ask you one
Do you think the Saints were the best side 2010?

Thanks Teffers,

And to be honest, I think your summation is 100% correct. Where I disagree with you is the narrative.
To my recollection, for years afterwards people pushed the narrative that RL took this ragtag bunch of misfits and through his incredible coaching, achieved results with them that far surpassed what they were reasonably should have been capable. I think the same thing happened at Freo.

It’s that thinking along with his super impressive, unbelievable W/L ratio that makes me trumpet the overrated line.

To me, he had an exceptional list to work with, coached it reasonably well... was exceptional in some areas (structure, plan, leadership, intensity), mediocre in others (development, flexibility, bias) and achieved a reasonable/within expectations result of what he had to work with.


Now in answer to your question...

Ultimately no. Especially not in the second half of the season when Collingwood asserted their dominance and hit their straps. I think we were a clearly top 2 and flirted with the line of being the best team in 2010... and perhaps if we had developed the list better we could have been.
IMO however, we relied far too heavily on our top 6-10 players that seasons and carried a number of others that were seriously down on form as I pointed out earlier (and before that article)... McQualter had a shocking year and didn’t play as many good games as Kent did in 2021, Dempster was out of his depth at that time, Ray’s form dropped, Peake was hit and miss, Gardiner was down, Gram never looked match fit, Eddy was average etc
The philosophy to me was obviously flawed and I think a lot of problems were glaringly obvious.

Oddly enough... I thought his actual match day coaching was a hell of a lot better in 2010 then 09 and I think his performance in the draw was actually really really good compared to the year before

It’s no secret Lyons Achilles is development....would have been fascinating to see if at Carlton he’d learnt anything here ..
Can’t agree he coached better in 2010 to 09 ....apart from GF and IMO some really ordinary execution that would’ve pressured Cats, 09 was just a superbly coached season.
In my lifetime I have never experienced going to the football and just expecting to win ....we were that good. The best game I’ve ever seen at Etihad/Marvel mid year ...us and Cats..,,a superb effort it was Foreman vs Ali stuff...
We lost 3 games by a total of 19 points......just a shame 1 off those was the GF
By 2010 GF I felt we started looking vulnerable and I agree, in hindsight, had Lyon rejuvenated with some kids who knows? but Pies had taken Lyons game plan and bettered it.
I still think it would’ve been poetry to beat them by 1 pt... and when Goddard took that mark for about 1 min I thought “we’re gonna win this...”
Anyway time to focus on now .....I just pray Ratten has what it takes and recruiting keeps up its recent good performance

[Wayne42]

Don't forget the last game of the season, when we just beat Melbourne, after losses to Essendon and Norf, that was one of the games that Melbourne was accused of tanking.

By then we were somewhat out of form, compared to earlier in the year, but we still managed to get to the Grand Final and then kicked ourselves out of it, in the rain.

[spert]

Looking at our GFs under Lyon, I would say we lost because some of our more highly rated players didn't perform on the day that counted for whatever reason.

[CQ SAINT]

Looking at our GFs under Lyon, I would say we lost because some of our more highly rated players didn't perform on the day that counted for whatever reason.

The second half from Ball in 09 was pretty useless.

[B.M]

Teflon - you say Lyon is a successful coach

Allow me to retort

Premiership coaches are successful coaches - especially after 12 years

With the lists he had at StK and Freo - he didn’t get it done

[Teflon]

Teflon - you say Lyon is a successful coach

Allow me to retort

Premiership coaches are successful coaches - especially after 12 years

With the lists he had at StK and Freo - he didn’t get it done

Ok that’s your measure
Allow me to retort
On that logic any player who has a Premiership medallion is better than Robert Harvey cause his career wasn’t capped by the ultimate TEAM prize in our game
So Nick Maxwell better player cause he has a flag?

[Teflon]

Looking at our GFs under Lyon, I would say we lost because some of our more highly rated players didn't perform on the day that counted for whatever reason.

The second half from Ball in 09 was pretty useless.

Probably matters less if we did what we were supposed to in the first half...

[Teflon]

Don't forget the last game of the season, when we just beat Melbourne, after losses to Essendon and Norf, that was one of the games that Melbourne was accused of tanking.

By then we were somewhat out of form, compared to earlier in the year, but we still managed to get to the Grand Final and then kicked ourselves out of it, in the rain.

2010 GF 1 I think if that goes 5 mins longer that games ours.,
A mate rang me afterwards and said “you’ll get belted next week they look fitter and younger “
He was right
Still though always felt had Cloke not been a spud and kicked straight we were gone
Miracle we nearly stole that game and Hayes/Goddard were just enormous
Shame Roo didn’t fire but had his reasons

[saynta]

If Ball was playing for us in 2010 instead of the filth and if Max hadn't been so pissed off that he freely gave our IP to said filth, we win that drawn final.

[saynta]

From the herald sun.com.au

"
Eight years and eight months ago, the Melbourne football club was fined for trying to lose games of football.

The AFL didn’t call it that, of course.

“Acting in a manner prejudicial to the interests of the competition” was the official transgression from issues arising from the 2009 season.

Of all the storylines arising from this Grand Final – Michael Hibberd playing for the memory of his deceased brother, the curse of Norm Smith, Melbourne’s 57-year drought – Melbourne’s revolution as a football club is one of them.

It is a reminder to any club at rock bottom – yes, that’s you, Carlton.

If you hire good people, eschew shortcuts and dodgy deals and make a multitude of good decisions over and over in coaching, recruiting, trading, leadership and administration, you can change your fortunes from a club trying to lose to one playing off for a premiership."



It was well known, at least in Saints circles, that we didn't rate the Dees coaching staff.

The Dees then added Richo and Choco to the ranks, and hey presto. Grand final here they come.

No one can say that those two aren't good football people.

[Wayne42]

From the herald sun.com.au

"
Eight years and eight months ago, the Melbourne football club was fined for trying to lose games of football.

The AFL didn’t call it that, of course.

“Acting in a manner prejudicial to the interests of the competition” was the official transgression from issues arising from the 2009 season.

Of all the storylines arising from this Grand Final – Michael Hibberd playing for the memory of his deceased brother, the curse of Norm Smith, Melbourne’s 57-year drought – Melbourne’s revolution as a football club is one of them.

It is a reminder to any club at rock bottom – yes, that’s you, Carlton.

If you hire good people, eschew shortcuts and dodgy deals and make a multitude of good decisions over and over in coaching, recruiting, trading, leadership and administration, you can change your fortunes from a club trying to lose to one playing off for a premiership."



It was well known, at least in Saints circles, that we didn't rate the Dees coaching staff.

The Dees then added Richo and Choco to the ranks, and hey presto. Grand final here they come.

No one can say that those two aren't good football people.

The Demons also added Adem Yze to their coaching ranks for 2021.

[meher baba]

OK, I should keep away from engaging with Teflon’s strange (and, some suggest, personalised) trauma re GT, but I have some time on my hands and a glass of red in my hands, so here I go.

Thomas did a tremendous job IMO. He’s a genuinely talented leader who, in a short period of time, built a great team with a great culture. In 2001-02 we had some promising players, but we were a crap club with a crap team. In 2004 we were desperately unlucky not to beat the eventual premiers in the PF. It was a terrific coaching achievement.

And then we made the finals in 2005 and had a rousing win over Adelaide, and were again desperately unlucky in the PF. Injuries undid us. Teflon would have it that these were all GT’s fault because he said something about “training services.” This is crap too.

In 2006, we would have finished top 4 again other than for Demetriou and co unprecedented taking a point away from us. We lost our one finals match due to another horrific run with injuries (an excuse not available to Lyon in 2011 I would note).

Then GT was sacked. Is he the only coach in the history of VFL/AFL after making the finals in three successive finals? I suspect so. The AFL world didn’t rate hin, because he hadn’t come up as assistant coach in the way they considered essential, and because he rocked the boat a bit. But, by any reasonable measure he did a great job. He’s a great leader, as his success in the corporate world demonstrates.

After GT came Lyon. Another first time coach, albeit one who has served his approved apprenticeship. Just like lots of total failures before and since. Oh, and Robert Walls thought he was the bees’ knees. Just have been good then.

But - and here I differ with many of you - Lyon is a good coach. At least as good as GT. After a couple of years of standing still (and, who knows, might have been a period of lost opportunity) he did great things with the team and, like GT before him, was really unlucky not to take the team to a premiership.

The one, really important problem with Lyon was that he didn’t do anything much on the cultural side of the ledger. He was all about technique and strategy in the present. The long term wasn’t his concern. Here he differed not only from GT but with the likes of Bomber at Geelong and Clarko at the Hawks. And that’s why, at the end of the day, they flourished and went ahead to consistent glory, and we didn’t: even though our group of star players was arguably just as good as those of the Cats and Hawks.

If the club had stuck with GT, we might not have done so well on the technical side, but our culture might have taken us further than we went.

And that’s my version of history. FWIW

[meher baba]

I was typing on my iPhone, so there a few typos which I can’t correct now. I hope it mostly makes sense.

[meher baba]

I was typing on my iPhone, so there a few typos which I can’t correct now. I hope it mostly makes sense.

[skeptic]

Looking at our GFs under Lyon, I would say we lost because some of our more highly rated players didn't perform on the day that counted for whatever reason.

The second half from Ball in 09 was pretty useless.

Probably matters less if we did what we were supposed to in the first half...

An example of how a good coaching move may have made the difference at a key time in an instance where effort wasn’t enough

A little magic from the coaches box to give us an extra 10% to get over the line

[Teflon]

Looking at our GFs under Lyon, I would say we lost because some of our more highly rated players didn't perform on the day that counted for whatever reason.

The second half from Ball in 09 was pretty useless.

Probably matters less if we did what we were supposed to in the first half...

An example of how a good coaching move may have made the difference at a key time in an instance where effort wasn’t enough

A little magic from the coaches box to give us an extra 10% to get over the line

Honestly I rarely believe in “magical extra 10% from coaching boxes” I tend to think they go most of their work well before game day and if meticulous, like Lyon, players know there roles. Game day you run out the race and it’s on players to execute - win the ball , hit targets and kick goals ....very gettable goals
Of course blinding , glaring coaching mishaps are the exception eg leaving Shanahan on Jarmine and ignoring Hudgton ....
The myth peddled here by some is Luke Ball would’ve meant Saints win the GF if he wasn’t on the pine second half in 09 (wasn’t he at Pies in 2010?).., s as byway no matter I don’t buy it and Ball just became a pies scumbag after that.

[Teflon]

OK, I should keep away from engaging with Teflon’s strange (and, some suggest, personalised) trauma re GT, but I have some time on my hands and a glass of red in my hands, so here I go.

Thomas did a tremendous job IMO. He’s a genuinely talented leader who, in a short period of time, built a great team with a great culture. In 2001-02 we had some promising players, but we were a crap club with a crap team. In 2004 we were desperately unlucky not to beat the eventual premiers in the PF. It was a terrific coaching achievement.

And then we made the finals in 2005 and had a rousing win over Adelaide, and were again desperately unlucky in the PF. Injuries undid us. Teflon would have it that these were all GT’s fault because he said something about “training services.” This is crap too.

In 2006, we would have finished top 4 again other than for Demetriou and co unprecedented taking a point away from us. We lost our one finals match due to another horrific run with injuries (an excuse not available to Lyon in 2011 I would note).

Then GT was sacked. Is he the only coach in the history of VFL/AFL after making the finals in three successive finals? I suspect so. The AFL world didn’t rate hin, because he hadn’t come up as assistant coach in the way they considered essential, and because he rocked the boat a bit. But, by any reasonable measure he did a great job. He’s a great leader, as his success in the corporate world demonstrates.

After GT came Lyon. Another first time coach, albeit one who has served his approved apprenticeship. Just like lots of total failures before and since. Oh, and Robert Walls thought he was the bees’ knees. Just have been good then.

But - and here I differ with many of you - Lyon is a good coach. At least as good as GT. After a couple of years of standing still (and, who knows, might have been a period of lost opportunity) he did great things with the team and, like GT before him, was really unlucky not to take the team to a premiership.

The one, really important problem with Lyon was that he didn’t do anything much on the cultural side of the ledger. He was all about technique and strategy in the present. The long term wasn’t his concern. Here he differed not only from GT but with the likes of Bomber at Geelong and Clarko at the Hawks. And that’s why, at the end of the day, they flourished and went ahead to consistent glory, and we didn’t: even though our group of star players was arguably just as good as those of the Cats and Hawks.

If the club had stuck with GT, we might not have done so well on the technical side, but our culture might have taken us further than we went.

And that’s my version of history. FWIW

Missed you babblelots
The narratives still rubbish but that doesn’t mean it isn’t entertaining
So “GT” was all culture ...,no strategy
Lyon all strategy no culture ...
that’s it?
Time for another glass of red me thinks.....
Cheers!!

[Scollop]

Mule

[Teflon]

YAWN

[Trev from the Bush]

There must be a very fine line between trolling and stalking, but if you are game enough to post on this thread you are likely to find out. If your opinion does not align with a statement of fact, watch out!

[Josh Battle]

Looking at our GFs under Lyon, I would say we lost because some of our more highly rated players didn't perform on the day that counted for whatever reason.

The second half from Ball in 09 was pretty useless.

Probably matters less if we did what we were supposed to in the first half...

If a coach wants a player on the list and if the coach thinks that the player has what it takes to win you a final then who is ultimately responsible when that player fails?

If they did what they were supposed to do maybe St Kilda wins it’s second flag in 2009

And let’s be specific here. I’m talking about Milne and Schneider. Two blokes that Lyon wanted in his team

Ball had what it took to win in the dying minutes of a cut throat prelim final. He proved it in 2011 when he got Collingwood into a Grand Final. Lyon is a turd and a poor judge of footballers. Maybe just a poor judge of people too