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I’ve been breaking records on here long before you discovered the place !!Trev from the Bush wrote: ↑Sat 11 Sep 2021 12:21pm Just an observation. On Saintsational there is a maximum 25 posts per page. On this page alone Teflon has 12 (count 'em, an egg carton full). Congratulations non-stick one, I reckon that has to be some sort of record. Some might suggest a broken one.
Bulldust again Teflon. Find a post from someone/anyone who has stated “he couldn’t coach” …in this thread or at anytime from the end of 2011 onward
Look I can Trollop (sorry couldn’t resist after your lame Tossco jibe...Scollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 2:20amBulldust again Teflon. Find a post from someone/anyone who has stated “he couldn’t coach” …in this thread or at anytime from the end of 2011 onward
You are the one who was brainwashed by some media heads who have been banging on about what a super coach he was and what a great achievement it was for St Kilda to make it to a GF. Based on our ability to crush most teams and defeat all the contenders, just getting there was not great at all. You reckon it was great getting to the GF in 09 and you used those words in several of your posts over the years.
You’ve taken an each way bet at times with some of your criticism of Lyon, but there are posts from you and others dating back to 2012 where you continually called his coaching great and you’ve referred to Lyon as a ‘super’ coach.
You keep comparing Lyon to GT as a coach and telling us statistically that Lyon has to be better. Statistically Port Adelaide matched the Doggies last night (Port had 369 disposals to Dogs 367). Also Nick Riewoldt is on record (01/08/2019 on Whateley SEN) "Just because you get to the Grand Final with one coach and you don't with another, doesn't necassarily make one coach better than the other"
You are just another anonymous nobody who posts here and as I’ve written before, just because you’re on the side of the ‘popular opinion’ regarding Ross, it doesn’t necessarily make it the right opinion. How can someone be a ‘great’ coach when his side is outplayed for the whole second half in a Grand Final and his side fails to kick a goal in the last quarter? That’s a coach who choked imo and not someone that’s great.
Popular opinion used to be that asbestos was great!!
You also don’t read too well or interpret everything as perfectly as you might think (take for example your incorrect interpretation of my reply to Yorkeys…he’s obviosly taken a dig at me because I’m not agreeing with popular opinion. Why I else would I say it’s fun isn’t? I don’t have an issue with someone calling me a twat or using humour in their posts. It’s one of the main reasons I come here)
If you want to be a sheep or someone who can’t think for themselves or someone who needs to feel safe by agreeing with popular opinion, that’s ok. That’s your choice but don’t shove your opinions down everyone’s throat and expect us to lick our chops and swallow!
There’s a dozen replies on one page by a single poster called Teflon in this thread…. I bet you he’s also said over a dozen times over the years that 19-0 in 2009 was a testament to Lyon’s great coaching. That is a croc of horseshit. He failed where it matters. I don’t think the nicname of Tosser is suitable for Ross, but it would be perfect for you. Over to you Teflon. Can you leave it there?
)
Scollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 2:20amBulldust again Teflon. Find a post from someone/anyone who has stated “he couldn’t coach” …in this thread or at anytime from the end of 2011 onward
You are the one who was brainwashed by some media heads who have been banging on about what a super coach he was and what a great achievement it was for St Kilda to make it to a GF. Based on our ability to crush most teams and defeat all the contenders, just getting there was not great at all. You reckon it was great getting to the GF in 09 and you used those words in several of your posts over the years.
You’ve taken an each way bet at times with some of your criticism of Lyon, but there are posts from you and others dating back to 2012 where you continually called his coaching great and you’ve referred to Lyon as a ‘super’ coach.
You keep comparing Lyon to GT as a coach and telling us statistically that Lyon has to be better. Statistically Port Adelaide matched the Doggies last night (Port had 369 disposals to Dogs 367). Also Nick Riewoldt is on record (01/08/2019 on Whateley SEN) "Just because you get to the Grand Final with one coach and you don't with another, doesn't necassarily make one coach better than the other"
You are just another anonymous nobody who posts here and as I’ve written before, just because you’re on the side of the ‘popular opinion’ regarding Ross, it doesn’t necessarily make it the right opinion. How can someone be a ‘great’ coach when his side is outplayed for the whole second half in a Grand Final and his side fails to kick a goal in the last quarter? That’s a coach who choked imo and not someone that’s great.
Popular opinion used to be that asbestos was great!!
You also don’t read too well or interpret everything as perfectly as you might think (take for example your incorrect interpretation of my reply to Yorkeys…he’s obviosly taken a dig at me because I’m not agreeing with popular opinion. Why I else would I say it’s fun isn’t? I don’t have an issue with someone calling me a twat or using humour in their posts. It’s one of the main reasons I come here)
If you want to be a sheep or someone who can’t think for themselves or someone who needs to feel safe by agreeing with popular opinion, that’s ok. That’s your choice but don’t shove your opinions down everyone’s throat and expect us to lick our chops and swallow!
There’s a dozen replies on one page by a single poster called Teflon in this thread…. I bet you he’s also said over a dozen times over the years that 19-0 in 2009 was a testament to Lyon’s great coaching. That is a croc of horseshit. He failed where it matters. I don’t think the nicname of Tosser is suitable for Ross, but it would be perfect for you. Over to you Teflon. Can you leave it there?
I’ll condense your above answer to make it really clear to people on how you respond to postsTeflon wrote: ↑Wed 08 Sep 2021 12:18amLook can’t go through all of that and still not sure of your point but it’s pretty simpleskeptic wrote: ↑Tue 07 Sep 2021 10:58pmPerhaps there’s a bit to be said here about the wrestling company WCW.Scollop wrote: ↑Tue 07 Sep 2021 3:45pmWhile you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.
You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.
The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players
Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away
The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon
A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational
Compared to the the WWF (at the time) which was the institution of many eras, WCW was the loser B-Program that could never really compete and never turn a profit.
This changed in 1996 when two out of contract WWF stars in Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, our of nowhere in a pre-internet era, began suddenly appearing on WCW programming... known by fans by their character names Razor Ramon and Diesel, ppl were convinced initially that they had been sent by the rival network to destroy the company and then people thought maybe it was a cross promotional thing.
Things came to a head in the Bash at the Beach PPV in 1996 PPV where those two wrestlers dubbed The Outsiders challenged three of WCW’s best to a match. The good guys in Sting, Lex Luger and The Machoman Randy Savage answered the call but in response to questions of whether it would be a fair fight... The Outsiders revealed that they had a mystery third man that would come in only if needed.
Who was the third man? The biggest question in American pop culture that year.
At the PPV, the ultimate good guy in Hulk Hogan who had been off TV for months genuinely shocked the world by coming out and betraying WCW and if you think this sounds like it’s nothing or hyperbole... it really wasn’t. Check it out on YouTube... young kids in tears ripped off their Hulk Hogan T-shirts and the crowd pelted the ring in garbage as Hogan told the fans to suck it for taking him for granted as he joined the New World Order of wrestling.
Now this story/angle catapulted WCW to the big stage... in 1996, they turned over their first profit and and a profit of several million followed in 1997, which was close to the biggest year in wrestling.
The good fortune continued and peaked in 1998 when WCW more or less made a couple $100k every time they went out the door. Here’s the thing though... beneath the surface of the year where they broke all records, things were problematic
The company president Eric Bischoff was less hands on as he was fight AOL Time Warner executives who wanted to make the show less risk’ey and more family friendly
His reduced influence saw a culture emerge amongst the top stars who increasingly wanted either not work as hard or protect their reputations by not cleanly losing... the result, matches frequently ended with predictable betrayals and disqualifications... more so then that, continuity dropped, non-sensical stories started and ended abruptly and the product suffered. More so... a lot of the big stars just left or disappeared for extended periods
Also... in addition to to the above, injuries to key talent took their toll, a drug/alcohol culture swept through the place and fed up with everything... a lot of the really promising talent just upped and quit.
By mid-2000, WCW was gone. It went under and this company that 1.5 years earlier was grossing in $100-200 million annually was sold to its competitor for less then $50k.
The point of this story... not that it’s hard to figure out however, is that the demise of company didn’t come because from 1999 onwards frustrated fans voted with their remotes and feet... it came in the most successful period of all, when WCW was enjoying all the success in the world. In 1998, yeah they were getting the results... but they had unaddressed problem after unaddressed problem that saw them put out on crappy show and event after another, after another
To me... that’s what the St.Kilda FC was in 2010
Yeah even with Riewoldt down for 10 weeks we were winning far more then we lost but we weren’t really playing that well and the go to players to get us over the line were our seasoned superstars... Hayes, Goddard, Dal, Monty, Fisher with great seasons from Kosi and Milne as well and perhaps Gwilt as the surprising emergent.
But... an absolute plethora of players stagnated and were way down on form... Gram looked barely fit all season, King and Gardiner were shadow of themselves..., Ray was done on his first season with us, Baker and Blake were decent but getting down, Schneider and Jones were good but not as good the year before towards the end
And more notably Eddy played a bit, Dempster got some games despite being really terrible (not yet the player he would be), McQualter was playing really really poor football (and his non dropping was sending me insane)... Brett Peake played most games and was so so...
Who wasn’t getting games for us... or at least wasn’t the focus of development that they should have been... Steven, Armitage, Lynch and Stanley... not to mention that McEvoy played a bit but wasn’t used smartly. Hutchins never even made it off the rookie list.
We’d pissed Luke Ball off for nothing... Hudghton too went over to the enemy (very costly)
Our big recruit in Lovett was gone barely into the pre-season... Jesse Smith never played a game IIRC
And our drafting saw Nick Winmar, Hayne, Pattison, Johnson, Smith, Cahill, Archer, Simpkin, Miles, McGrath
The problems for that year were easily visible and prominent for anyone and everyone that was objectively looking to see. Now RL may not be at fault for all of these... but he had a lot of control and his hand was all a lot of this and he didn’t address any of it.
Injuries played their part but Geary, Steven, Dempster and McEvoy improved a bit the year after RL left
Long winded but I just don’t see the smooth operator here that ppl worship - what is the argument beyond he had a great list
2010 we’d been up since 04
Ross Lyon didn’t develop the list (Thomas only got lucky with high end draft picks off the back of the disgraceful Watson era...so not sure of “man love” for GT the leader of men..)
Aside from all of that and all the failings in players you’ve just pointed out in 2010 - we made the GF (I agree probably didn’t deserve to) and but for a missed bounce could’ve won it.
You keep pointing out all the failings of Lyon and give zero credit for what was obviously (and has been repeatedly acknowledged as so by OUR SENIOR PlAYERS) a superb coaching effort with an ability to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline.
Once again with a better list, better blend of mature stars and superb kids coming through your mate “GT” simply couldn’t even get us there.
Lyons not a “smooth operator” he’s a difficult, awkward narcissist but the guy demands and has proven time and again he can coach and get a side to buy in to his style.
GTs a narcissist and complete control freak who didn’t know when his time was up (after suggesting he was there purely as caretaker..)
To suggest Lyon just “had a good list” is utter garbage not backed up by FACTS or the players who were there at the time.
I think I’d trust their version over keyboard warriors on SS who clearly can’t see past their own hatred to acknowledge a 65% win record at 2 clubs isn’t bad going.
And I certainly don’t get the love for GT and again, noting not 1 AFL club has EVER enquired about him as a potential coach ...,I suspect I’m not alone on that front.
So you’re either not interested in reading someone’s answer properly before you respond or you’re not interested in responding to any questions raised that might uncover answers that don’t suit your narrative.
And there he is right on cue...saynta wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 12:08pmScollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 2:20amBulldust again Teflon. Find a post from someone/anyone who has stated “he couldn’t coach” …in this thread or at anytime from the end of 2011 onward
You are the one who was brainwashed by some media heads who have been banging on about what a super coach he was and what a great achievement it was for St Kilda to make it to a GF. Based on our ability to crush most teams and defeat all the contenders, just getting there was not great at all. You reckon it was great getting to the GF in 09 and you used those words in several of your posts over the years.
You’ve taken an each way bet at times with some of your criticism of Lyon, but there are posts from you and others dating back to 2012 where you continually called his coaching great and you’ve referred to Lyon as a ‘super’ coach.
You keep comparing Lyon to GT as a coach and telling us statistically that Lyon has to be better. Statistically Port Adelaide matched the Doggies last night (Port had 369 disposals to Dogs 367). Also Nick Riewoldt is on record (01/08/2019 on Whateley SEN) "Just because you get to the Grand Final with one coach and you don't with another, doesn't necassarily make one coach better than the other"
You are just another anonymous nobody who posts here and as I’ve written before, just because you’re on the side of the ‘popular opinion’ regarding Ross, it doesn’t necessarily make it the right opinion. How can someone be a ‘great’ coach when his side is outplayed for the whole second half in a Grand Final and his side fails to kick a goal in the last quarter? That’s a coach who choked imo and not someone that’s great.
Popular opinion used to be that asbestos was great!!
You also don’t read too well or interpret everything as perfectly as you might think (take for example your incorrect interpretation of my reply to Yorkeys…he’s obviosly taken a dig at me because I’m not agreeing with popular opinion. Why I else would I say it’s fun isn’t? I don’t have an issue with someone calling me a twat or using humour in their posts. It’s one of the main reasons I come here)
If you want to be a sheep or someone who can’t think for themselves or someone who needs to feel safe by agreeing with popular opinion, that’s ok. That’s your choice but don’t shove your opinions down everyone’s throat and expect us to lick our chops and swallow!
There’s a dozen replies on one page by a single poster called Teflon in this thread…. I bet you he’s also said over a dozen times over the years that 19-0 in 2009 was a testament to Lyon’s great coaching. That is a croc of horseshit. He failed where it matters. I don’t think the nicname of Tosser is suitable for Ross, but it would be perfect for you. Over to you Teflon. Can you leave it there?
No life’s not that simpleskeptic wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 12:29pm Honest question Teflon,
Would you agree that there’s a perception out there that in 2009, this rag tag bunch of players that people weren’t expecting much from were coached so brilliantly, they far exceeded what they should have been capable of achieving because of the coaching?
Does that make him a bad coach?
Woulda coulda shoulda DIDNTsaynta wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 1:48pm From the herald sun.com.au
"THE FINAL STRAW
Port Adelaide’s 2004 preliminary final was so stressful for Mark Williams’ wife she was rushed to hospital in an ambulance after fainting in the stands.
46,978 were crammed into Football Park that night for what would turn out to be an absolute thriller against St Kilda.
Port Adelaide’s Kane Cornes revealed it was the biggest pressure game he was every involved with.
“It was the most hard fought and intense game of football I’ve ever played in,” Cornes told SEN Friday.
“You’ve got no idea the pressure Mark Williams and the footy club was under. It went right down to the wire and we won by 6 points.
“She (Pauline) couldn’t handle it and was taken to hospital.”
That is a game we should have won only for f*** wit saints supporters invading the ground and then that thug who eventually slinked off to the hawks missing a certain goal in the final minutes.
We probably would have gone on to beat the lions in the grannie as they were due for a loss.
Would have forever changed the perception of Thomas as a dud coach.
The whole basis of all that cr@p is “your just influenced by popular opinion “Scollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 2:26pmI’ll condense your above answer to make it really clear to people on how you respond to postsTeflon wrote: ↑Wed 08 Sep 2021 12:18amLook can’t go through all of that and still not sure of your point but it’s pretty simpleskeptic wrote: ↑Tue 07 Sep 2021 10:58pmPerhaps there’s a bit to be said here about the wrestling company WCW.Scollop wrote: ↑Tue 07 Sep 2021 3:45pmWhile you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.
You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.
The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players
Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away
The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon
A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational
Compared to the the WWF (at the time) which was the institution of many eras, WCW was the loser B-Program that could never really compete and never turn a profit.
This changed in 1996 when two out of contract WWF stars in Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, our of nowhere in a pre-internet era, began suddenly appearing on WCW programming... known by fans by their character names Razor Ramon and Diesel, ppl were convinced initially that they had been sent by the rival network to destroy the company and then people thought maybe it was a cross promotional thing.
Things came to a head in the Bash at the Beach PPV in 1996 PPV where those two wrestlers dubbed The Outsiders challenged three of WCW’s best to a match. The good guys in Sting, Lex Luger and The Machoman Randy Savage answered the call but in response to questions of whether it would be a fair fight... The Outsiders revealed that they had a mystery third man that would come in only if needed.
Who was the third man? The biggest question in American pop culture that year.
At the PPV, the ultimate good guy in Hulk Hogan who had been off TV for months genuinely shocked the world by coming out and betraying WCW and if you think this sounds like it’s nothing or hyperbole... it really wasn’t. Check it out on YouTube... young kids in tears ripped off their Hulk Hogan T-shirts and the crowd pelted the ring in garbage as Hogan told the fans to suck it for taking him for granted as he joined the New World Order of wrestling.
Now this story/angle catapulted WCW to the big stage... in 1996, they turned over their first profit and and a profit of several million followed in 1997, which was close to the biggest year in wrestling.
The good fortune continued and peaked in 1998 when WCW more or less made a couple $100k every time they went out the door. Here’s the thing though... beneath the surface of the year where they broke all records, things were problematic
The company president Eric Bischoff was less hands on as he was fight AOL Time Warner executives who wanted to make the show less risk’ey and more family friendly
His reduced influence saw a culture emerge amongst the top stars who increasingly wanted either not work as hard or protect their reputations by not cleanly losing... the result, matches frequently ended with predictable betrayals and disqualifications... more so then that, continuity dropped, non-sensical stories started and ended abruptly and the product suffered. More so... a lot of the big stars just left or disappeared for extended periods
Also... in addition to to the above, injuries to key talent took their toll, a drug/alcohol culture swept through the place and fed up with everything... a lot of the really promising talent just upped and quit.
By mid-2000, WCW was gone. It went under and this company that 1.5 years earlier was grossing in $100-200 million annually was sold to its competitor for less then $50k.
The point of this story... not that it’s hard to figure out however, is that the demise of company didn’t come because from 1999 onwards frustrated fans voted with their remotes and feet... it came in the most successful period of all, when WCW was enjoying all the success in the world. In 1998, yeah they were getting the results... but they had unaddressed problem after unaddressed problem that saw them put out on crappy show and event after another, after another
To me... that’s what the St.Kilda FC was in 2010
Yeah even with Riewoldt down for 10 weeks we were winning far more then we lost but we weren’t really playing that well and the go to players to get us over the line were our seasoned superstars... Hayes, Goddard, Dal, Monty, Fisher with great seasons from Kosi and Milne as well and perhaps Gwilt as the surprising emergent.
But... an absolute plethora of players stagnated and were way down on form... Gram looked barely fit all season, King and Gardiner were shadow of themselves..., Ray was done on his first season with us, Baker and Blake were decent but getting down, Schneider and Jones were good but not as good the year before towards the end
And more notably Eddy played a bit, Dempster got some games despite being really terrible (not yet the player he would be), McQualter was playing really really poor football (and his non dropping was sending me insane)... Brett Peake played most games and was so so...
Who wasn’t getting games for us... or at least wasn’t the focus of development that they should have been... Steven, Armitage, Lynch and Stanley... not to mention that McEvoy played a bit but wasn’t used smartly. Hutchins never even made it off the rookie list.
We’d pissed Luke Ball off for nothing... Hudghton too went over to the enemy (very costly)
Our big recruit in Lovett was gone barely into the pre-season... Jesse Smith never played a game IIRC
And our drafting saw Nick Winmar, Hayne, Pattison, Johnson, Smith, Cahill, Archer, Simpkin, Miles, McGrath
The problems for that year were easily visible and prominent for anyone and everyone that was objectively looking to see. Now RL may not be at fault for all of these... but he had a lot of control and his hand was all a lot of this and he didn’t address any of it.
Injuries played their part but Geary, Steven, Dempster and McEvoy improved a bit the year after RL left
Long winded but I just don’t see the smooth operator here that ppl worship - what is the argument beyond he had a great list
2010 we’d been up since 04
Ross Lyon didn’t develop the list (Thomas only got lucky with high end draft picks off the back of the disgraceful Watson era...so not sure of “man love” for GT the leader of men..)
Aside from all of that and all the failings in players you’ve just pointed out in 2010 - we made the GF (I agree probably didn’t deserve to) and but for a missed bounce could’ve won it.
You keep pointing out all the failings of Lyon and give zero credit for what was obviously (and has been repeatedly acknowledged as so by OUR SENIOR PlAYERS) a superb coaching effort with an ability to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline.
Once again with a better list, better blend of mature stars and superb kids coming through your mate “GT” simply couldn’t even get us there.
Lyons not a “smooth operator” he’s a difficult, awkward narcissist but the guy demands and has proven time and again he can coach and get a side to buy in to his style.
GTs a narcissist and complete control freak who didn’t know when his time was up (after suggesting he was there purely as caretaker..)
To suggest Lyon just “had a good list” is utter garbage not backed up by FACTS or the players who were there at the time.
I think I’d trust their version over keyboard warriors on SS who clearly can’t see past their own hatred to acknowledge a 65% win record at 2 clubs isn’t bad going.
And I certainly don’t get the love for GT and again, noting not 1 AFL club has EVER enquired about him as a potential coach ...,I suspect I’m not alone on that front.
So you’re either not interested in reading someone’s answer properly before you respond or you’re not interested in responding to any questions raised that might uncover answers that don’t suit your narrative.
Then you end your post and conclude your argument by saying that you’re opinion is the ‘popular opinion’ (therefore it must be the correct one)
It really is pointless having a debate with you if you are so closed minded and you’re thinking has been so profoundly manipulated by the shallow perceptions of a few influential media voices who had built up Lyon’s reputation prior to Ross having achieved the ultimate prize in our sport.
Thanks, Scollop, admire your persistence in looking up websites, reviewing media reports, etc, especially for a self thinker.Scollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 3:53pm To be considered a super coach or a great coach you have to view the role holistically and this is where Ross fails in a very big way.
One of the main reasons why teams under Ross Lyon couldn’t get over the line and win a Grand Final were his flawed philosophies on footy; his flawed philosophies on young players at the time we were contenders; and his penchant for divisiveness.
I didn’t like his game plan or his team selections or his inability to develop and retain talented players. He forgot to use his whole squad ( and the talented youth on the list) for the benefit of the team and the club as a whole. His stubbornness cost us flags
I was trying to find an article that perhaps sums up Lyon the person and some of his wrong calls and I settled on this one from 2018:
Former recruiter John Peake’s first hand account of the draft and selection battles at St Kilda
ROSS Lyon didn’t involve himself a great deal in recruiting discussions in my first two years at St Kilda.
He had a phrase: “Let the cobblers cobble.”
In 2007, Ross was insistent that we exchange our second-round draft selection to Sydney for Sean Dempster and Adam Schneider.
The following year we again traded out a second-round pick for Farren Ray, although it was Matthew Drain, who had replaced Ken Sheldon as football manager 12 months earlier, who was behind that particular push.
Where Ross exerted considerable draft influence was during deliberations over Cyril Rioli ahead of the 2007 national draft.
We had selection No.9.
I rated Cyril comfortably inside the top 10. For some reason Ross had the slows on him.
Cyril did not interview well at the draft combine. That said, it is not uncommon for players to present as shy and nervous when grilled by AFL coaches and assorted club officials.
This is especially so with indigenous players. In fairness to Ross, when he met Cyril for the first time, Cyril was difficult to engage in conversation or elicit much of a response from.
Cyril appeared reluctant or possibly lacked confidence to engage. His responses were limited and little insight into his character was gained.
The psychological testing did not reveal any more of Cyril’s character and therefore it remained an unknown aspect of his profile.
I was overseeing my first national draft and didn’t have any runs on the board. I disclosed my conundrum to a friend. His advice was that I’d be running the gauntlet to use a first-round selection on a player the coach had misgivings about.
With selection nine we chose Ben McEvoy. I rated Ben highly as well. I was also of the opinion that a good ruckman is needed to win finals.
I didn’t mind Tom Bellchambers, but had concerns about his maturity, and Dawson Simpson deserved an opportunity, but not as an early draft selection. Ben and Matthew Kreuzer, who Carlton drafted at No.1, were the only rucks I had confidence in.
I wear the criticism for selecting Ben ahead of Cyril (Hawthorn, pick 12) and Patrick Dangerfield (Adelaide, pick 10), but sleep a little easier now that Ben is a dual premiership ruckman (albeit as a Hawk) and on track to play more than 200 AFL games.
Our next selection after Ben in the 2007 draft was pick 42, which I had targeted for Jack Steven of the Geelong Falcons.
This was based on the assumption that he would still be available. I had researched Jack extensively and the fact that he had only been invited to a state combine suggested that he wasn’t to every club’s liking.
I understood that too, as Jack did have some rough edges. That’s why I was reasonably optimistic Jack would be there at selection 42.
Of course, we had also traded in Adam Schneider from Sydney. Hence, if we drafted Cyril, it would have meant bringing in three smalls together.
In hindsight you would say it didn’t matter as they were all good players, but at the time I was mindful of having a balanced draft.
Ross made no secret that he loved quick and skilful players, which suited me fine. In my first year at St Kilda we didn’t have philosophical differences on the types of players we were considering.
It changed when we selected Tom Lynch at my second draft.
The 2007 season was Ross’ first as a senior coach and my impression was that he hadn’t fully bedded down his game plan.
He then took the team to a preliminary final in 2008 and the Grand Final in 2009.
For St Kilda to win 19 consecutive games that season and lead Geelong in time-on of the final quarter of the Grand Final, was an outstanding coaching effort by Ross.
Unfortunately for the Saints, Shannon Byrnes and Travis Varcoe both had an impact for Geelong in the last quarter and this legitimised an internal view that we had been beaten by pace.
I still maintain that Geelong’s bottom six players were simply superior to ours, but Ross vehemently disagreed. In fact, he became more inflexible with regard to leg speed, which led to conflict between us.
In the case of Tom Lynch, I was convinced he could play and knew he could run.
He wasn’t an aesthetically pleasing athlete or, in the words of a good friend, a “mounting yard special”.
Where Sam Gilbert or Rhys Stanley would glide across the ground, Tom was a little flat-footed.
Upon being drafted in 2008, Tom had made it known that he was setting his sights on a Round 1 debut. Ross perceived this as arrogance, whereas I felt Tom was just ambitious.
Ross didn’t understand Tom and this is where he and I began to fall out.
In the 2008 trade period, Ross and assistant coach Tony Elshaug had been very keen on Carlton’s Brad Fisher, as they wanted a lead-up forward to ease some of the burden shouldered by Nick Riewoldt.
I strongly opposed the idea, as Fisher had been injury-prone and I didn’t believe he had much AFL football left in him.
By this stage Tom was well and truly on the radar and I was able to argue that we could draft the prototype, lead-up player that Ross was seeking. Drain came around to the idea and Ross reluctantly relented, but not before letting me know how disappointed he was in passing up on Fisher.
St Kilda's drafts 2007-10
2007
Ben McEvoy (9), Jack Steven (42), Fraser Gehrig (57), Eljay Connors (70)
2008
Tom Lynch (13), Rhys Stanley (47), Nick Heyne (48), Alistair Smith (62), Paul Cahill (74), Colm Begley (83)
2009
Nick Winmar (32), Jesse Smith (60), Adam Pattison (64), Will Johnson (77)
2010
Jamie Cripps (24), Sam Crocker (43), Tom Ledger (59), Arryn Siposs (75), Ryan Gamble (90), Dean Polo (103)
As time went on, the divide between Ross and I got bigger.
He believed that players needed to serve a three-year apprenticeship, which I agreed with up to a point.
Former Saint and Kangaroo Nick Dal Santo rapt up Ross on Fox Footy’s Open Mike, but acknowledged that he treated young players as virtual witch’s hats at training. It was often a case of “stand over there and don’t get in the way”.
In 2009 Jack Steven was playing consistently good football in the VFL but could not get a look in.
Drain was pushing for Jack and Tom to get games, as he knew they might be needed in finals if there were injuries.
At the same time, Sean Dempster, who was a wonderful servant of the club and became an All-Australian half-back, was improvising as a lead-up forward — the very role Tom had been drafted to fill. It didn’t make sense.
One can’t help but wonder what might have been considering Tom has become the linchpin (excuse the pun) for Adelaide.
As for Jack, he was twice the player of Robert Eddy and by 2010 had more to offer than Andrew McQualter and Brett Peake, but Ross would not entertain playing him.
Ross made me a better recruiter by holding me to a high level of account. I didn’t always agree with his management methods or philosophies, but I came to understand his expectations and worked to these accordingly.
My time at St Kilda certainly helped hone my recruiting strategies.
Ross wanted each recruiter to present to him their draft order.
I had some concerns that this could be divisive, while veteran Saints recruiter John Beveridge was reluctant to commit himself to player rankings or making decisions during the year, and sometimes, until the night of the draft.
This is where he and I had disagreements, although I don’t blame John.
He had worked independently for so long that he found it challenging to all of sudden have to collaborate with others.
The assistant coaches at St Kilda were terrific and I felt wonderfully supported by each of them. In my time we had Stephen Silvagni, Anthony Rock, John Barker, Elshaug, Andy Lovell, Leigh Tudor and Danny Sexton.
The fact that Ross was so relentless and demanding of his staff is essentially what banded us together.
By 2010 Ross was taking more of an interest in the draft and having most of the say. That’s when I decided my time was up.
The final straw came when he ridiculed me for having “burned” first-round selections on slow players (McEvoy and Lynch).
Shortly after I received an email from Greg Hutchison, who had replaced Drain as football manager, informing me that Ross had been placed in charge of list management.
Consequently, my services would not be required during the upcoming trade period and that Ross would basically be calling all of the shots.
I will say that when I resigned Ross tried to talk me around. I took him at his word that he was sincere.
One of my final duties at St Kilda was overseeing the 2010 national draft.
The recruiters had wanted to use selection 24 on Jack Darling, but were overruled by Ross.
He wanted to select runners and had the final say (St Kilda selected Jamie Cripps at pick No.24, the small forward who would go on to be a premiership player at West Coast alongside Darling).
Ross is intelligent. I believe he was a high achiever academically and is meticulous in his preparation and planning. He has taken two clubs to Grand Finals and would be a premiership coach if not for an unwieldy bounce of the ball in the dying stages of the 2010 drawn Grand Final.
My experience with Ross is that he didn’t have great faith in people outside his inner circle. He found it difficult to trust people and it’s largely the reason he micromanaged so much at St Kilda.
As an observer from afar, it would appear Ross is reinventing himself in the way he is bringing through a group of talented young players at Fremantle.
THE FOUR PILLARS OF RECRUITING
John Peake, who is building a manuscript that outlines the skills of recruiting, details his four key planks to drafting successful players.
1. CAN HE PLAY?
This component takes in football skill, ability to read the play and decision making.
2. MENTAL STRENGTH
Can the player stand up to the constant pressure of the work needed to prepare and perform each week? Is the player competitive by nature? Has he overcome a setback, shown resilience?
3. PHYSICAL MAKE-UP
Will the player’s build and/or strength help or hinder his game?
4. ATHLETIC ABILITY.
How does the player rate aerobically, for speed and agility? The weighting applied to each athletic trait is relative to the role the footballer is required to perform. High football IQ will invariably compensate for a lack of leg speed.
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FOUR PILLARS
Pillar 1 has the most influence on how good an AFL player he will be. If a player does not rate very good or high in Pillar 2 then I believe he will not make it. Strong ratings in Pillars 3 and 4 can offset some deficiencies in Pillars 1 and 2, which are still the most important.
The problem is, it was those lads who were in Ross's inner circle. We believe in you Ross and there isn't enough cap space to develop new guys or carry the injured. What else are they gonna say in the fall out.Teflon wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 7:20pmThe whole basis of all that cr@p is “your just influenced by popular opinion “Scollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 2:26pmI’ll condense your above answer to make it really clear to people on how you respond to postsTeflon wrote: ↑Wed 08 Sep 2021 12:18amLook can’t go through all of that and still not sure of your point but it’s pretty simpleskeptic wrote: ↑Tue 07 Sep 2021 10:58pmPerhaps there’s a bit to be said here about the wrestling company WCW.Scollop wrote: ↑Tue 07 Sep 2021 3:45pmWhile you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.
You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.
The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players
Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away
The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon
A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational
Compared to the the WWF (at the time) which was the institution of many eras, WCW was the loser B-Program that could never really compete and never turn a profit.
This changed in 1996 when two out of contract WWF stars in Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, our of nowhere in a pre-internet era, began suddenly appearing on WCW programming... known by fans by their character names Razor Ramon and Diesel, ppl were convinced initially that they had been sent by the rival network to destroy the company and then people thought maybe it was a cross promotional thing.
Things came to a head in the Bash at the Beach PPV in 1996 PPV where those two wrestlers dubbed The Outsiders challenged three of WCW’s best to a match. The good guys in Sting, Lex Luger and The Machoman Randy Savage answered the call but in response to questions of whether it would be a fair fight... The Outsiders revealed that they had a mystery third man that would come in only if needed.
Who was the third man? The biggest question in American pop culture that year.
At the PPV, the ultimate good guy in Hulk Hogan who had been off TV for months genuinely shocked the world by coming out and betraying WCW and if you think this sounds like it’s nothing or hyperbole... it really wasn’t. Check it out on YouTube... young kids in tears ripped off their Hulk Hogan T-shirts and the crowd pelted the ring in garbage as Hogan told the fans to suck it for taking him for granted as he joined the New World Order of wrestling.
Now this story/angle catapulted WCW to the big stage... in 1996, they turned over their first profit and and a profit of several million followed in 1997, which was close to the biggest year in wrestling.
The good fortune continued and peaked in 1998 when WCW more or less made a couple $100k every time they went out the door. Here’s the thing though... beneath the surface of the year where they broke all records, things were problematic
The company president Eric Bischoff was less hands on as he was fight AOL Time Warner executives who wanted to make the show less risk’ey and more family friendly
His reduced influence saw a culture emerge amongst the top stars who increasingly wanted either not work as hard or protect their reputations by not cleanly losing... the result, matches frequently ended with predictable betrayals and disqualifications... more so then that, continuity dropped, non-sensical stories started and ended abruptly and the product suffered. More so... a lot of the big stars just left or disappeared for extended periods
Also... in addition to to the above, injuries to key talent took their toll, a drug/alcohol culture swept through the place and fed up with everything... a lot of the really promising talent just upped and quit.
By mid-2000, WCW was gone. It went under and this company that 1.5 years earlier was grossing in $100-200 million annually was sold to its competitor for less then $50k.
The point of this story... not that it’s hard to figure out however, is that the demise of company didn’t come because from 1999 onwards frustrated fans voted with their remotes and feet... it came in the most successful period of all, when WCW was enjoying all the success in the world. In 1998, yeah they were getting the results... but they had unaddressed problem after unaddressed problem that saw them put out on crappy show and event after another, after another
To me... that’s what the St.Kilda FC was in 2010
Yeah even with Riewoldt down for 10 weeks we were winning far more then we lost but we weren’t really playing that well and the go to players to get us over the line were our seasoned superstars... Hayes, Goddard, Dal, Monty, Fisher with great seasons from Kosi and Milne as well and perhaps Gwilt as the surprising emergent.
But... an absolute plethora of players stagnated and were way down on form... Gram looked barely fit all season, King and Gardiner were shadow of themselves..., Ray was done on his first season with us, Baker and Blake were decent but getting down, Schneider and Jones were good but not as good the year before towards the end
And more notably Eddy played a bit, Dempster got some games despite being really terrible (not yet the player he would be), McQualter was playing really really poor football (and his non dropping was sending me insane)... Brett Peake played most games and was so so...
Who wasn’t getting games for us... or at least wasn’t the focus of development that they should have been... Steven, Armitage, Lynch and Stanley... not to mention that McEvoy played a bit but wasn’t used smartly. Hutchins never even made it off the rookie list.
We’d pissed Luke Ball off for nothing... Hudghton too went over to the enemy (very costly)
Our big recruit in Lovett was gone barely into the pre-season... Jesse Smith never played a game IIRC
And our drafting saw Nick Winmar, Hayne, Pattison, Johnson, Smith, Cahill, Archer, Simpkin, Miles, McGrath
The problems for that year were easily visible and prominent for anyone and everyone that was objectively looking to see. Now RL may not be at fault for all of these... but he had a lot of control and his hand was all a lot of this and he didn’t address any of it.
Injuries played their part but Geary, Steven, Dempster and McEvoy improved a bit the year after RL left
Long winded but I just don’t see the smooth operator here that ppl worship - what is the argument beyond he had a great list
2010 we’d been up since 04
Ross Lyon didn’t develop the list (Thomas only got lucky with high end draft picks off the back of the disgraceful Watson era...so not sure of “man love” for GT the leader of men..)
Aside from all of that and all the failings in players you’ve just pointed out in 2010 - we made the GF (I agree probably didn’t deserve to) and but for a missed bounce could’ve won it.
You keep pointing out all the failings of Lyon and give zero credit for what was obviously (and has been repeatedly acknowledged as so by OUR SENIOR PlAYERS) a superb coaching effort with an ability to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline.
Once again with a better list, better blend of mature stars and superb kids coming through your mate “GT” simply couldn’t even get us there.
Lyons not a “smooth operator” he’s a difficult, awkward narcissist but the guy demands and has proven time and again he can coach and get a side to buy in to his style.
GTs a narcissist and complete control freak who didn’t know when his time was up (after suggesting he was there purely as caretaker..)
To suggest Lyon just “had a good list” is utter garbage not backed up by FACTS or the players who were there at the time.
I think I’d trust their version over keyboard warriors on SS who clearly can’t see past their own hatred to acknowledge a 65% win record at 2 clubs isn’t bad going.
And I certainly don’t get the love for GT and again, noting not 1 AFL club has EVER enquired about him as a potential coach ...,I suspect I’m not alone on that front.
So you’re either not interested in reading someone’s answer properly before you respond or you’re not interested in responding to any questions raised that might uncover answers that don’t suit your narrative.
Then you end your post and conclude your argument by saying that you’re opinion is the ‘popular opinion’ (therefore it must be the correct one)
It really is pointless having a debate with you if you are so closed minded and you’re thinking has been so profoundly manipulated by the shallow perceptions of a few influential media voices who had built up Lyon’s reputation prior to Ross having achieved the ultimate prize in our sport.
Like your some lone voice of reason and none of the rest of the world get it??? Delusional
I’ll keep it simple
I believe Riewoldt Hayes Goddard Dal Santo Montagna over some SS nuff nuff who clearly drinks to much of his own bathwater - you get it yet ???
Great post ScollopScollop wrote: ↑Sun 12 Sep 2021 3:53pm To be considered a super coach or a great coach you have to view the role holistically and this is where Ross fails in a very big way.
One of the main reasons why teams under Ross Lyon couldn’t get over the line and win a Grand Final were his flawed philosophies on footy; his flawed philosophies on young players at the time we were contenders; and his penchant for divisiveness.
I didn’t like his game plan or his team selections or his inability to develop and retain talented players. He forgot to use his whole squad ( and the talented youth on the list) for the benefit of the team and the club as a whole. His stubbornness cost us flags
I was trying to find an article that perhaps sums up Lyon the person and some of his wrong calls and I settled on this one from 2018:
Former recruiter John Peake’s first hand account of the draft and selection battles at St Kilda
ROSS Lyon didn’t involve himself a great deal in recruiting discussions in my first two years at St Kilda.
He had a phrase: “Let the cobblers cobble.”
In 2007, Ross was insistent that we exchange our second-round draft selection to Sydney for Sean Dempster and Adam Schneider.
The following year we again traded out a second-round pick for Farren Ray, although it was Matthew Drain, who had replaced Ken Sheldon as football manager 12 months earlier, who was behind that particular push.
Where Ross exerted considerable draft influence was during deliberations over Cyril Rioli ahead of the 2007 national draft.
We had selection No.9.
I rated Cyril comfortably inside the top 10. For some reason Ross had the slows on him.
Cyril did not interview well at the draft combine. That said, it is not uncommon for players to present as shy and nervous when grilled by AFL coaches and assorted club officials.
This is especially so with indigenous players. In fairness to Ross, when he met Cyril for the first time, Cyril was difficult to engage in conversation or elicit much of a response from.
Cyril appeared reluctant or possibly lacked confidence to engage. His responses were limited and little insight into his character was gained.
The psychological testing did not reveal any more of Cyril’s character and therefore it remained an unknown aspect of his profile.
I was overseeing my first national draft and didn’t have any runs on the board. I disclosed my conundrum to a friend. His advice was that I’d be running the gauntlet to use a first-round selection on a player the coach had misgivings about.
With selection nine we chose Ben McEvoy. I rated Ben highly as well. I was also of the opinion that a good ruckman is needed to win finals.
I didn’t mind Tom Bellchambers, but had concerns about his maturity, and Dawson Simpson deserved an opportunity, but not as an early draft selection. Ben and Matthew Kreuzer, who Carlton drafted at No.1, were the only rucks I had confidence in.
I wear the criticism for selecting Ben ahead of Cyril (Hawthorn, pick 12) and Patrick Dangerfield (Adelaide, pick 10), but sleep a little easier now that Ben is a dual premiership ruckman (albeit as a Hawk) and on track to play more than 200 AFL games.
Our next selection after Ben in the 2007 draft was pick 42, which I had targeted for Jack Steven of the Geelong Falcons.
This was based on the assumption that he would still be available. I had researched Jack extensively and the fact that he had only been invited to a state combine suggested that he wasn’t to every club’s liking.
I understood that too, as Jack did have some rough edges. That’s why I was reasonably optimistic Jack would be there at selection 42.
Of course, we had also traded in Adam Schneider from Sydney. Hence, if we drafted Cyril, it would have meant bringing in three smalls together.
In hindsight you would say it didn’t matter as they were all good players, but at the time I was mindful of having a balanced draft.
Ross made no secret that he loved quick and skilful players, which suited me fine. In my first year at St Kilda we didn’t have philosophical differences on the types of players we were considering.
It changed when we selected Tom Lynch at my second draft.
The 2007 season was Ross’ first as a senior coach and my impression was that he hadn’t fully bedded down his game plan.
He then took the team to a preliminary final in 2008 and the Grand Final in 2009.
For St Kilda to win 19 consecutive games that season and lead Geelong in time-on of the final quarter of the Grand Final, was an outstanding coaching effort by Ross.
Unfortunately for the Saints, Shannon Byrnes and Travis Varcoe both had an impact for Geelong in the last quarter and this legitimised an internal view that we had been beaten by pace.
I still maintain that Geelong’s bottom six players were simply superior to ours, but Ross vehemently disagreed. In fact, he became more inflexible with regard to leg speed, which led to conflict between us.
In the case of Tom Lynch, I was convinced he could play and knew he could run.
He wasn’t an aesthetically pleasing athlete or, in the words of a good friend, a “mounting yard special”.
Where Sam Gilbert or Rhys Stanley would glide across the ground, Tom was a little flat-footed.
Upon being drafted in 2008, Tom had made it known that he was setting his sights on a Round 1 debut. Ross perceived this as arrogance, whereas I felt Tom was just ambitious.
Ross didn’t understand Tom and this is where he and I began to fall out.
In the 2008 trade period, Ross and assistant coach Tony Elshaug had been very keen on Carlton’s Brad Fisher, as they wanted a lead-up forward to ease some of the burden shouldered by Nick Riewoldt.
I strongly opposed the idea, as Fisher had been injury-prone and I didn’t believe he had much AFL football left in him.
By this stage Tom was well and truly on the radar and I was able to argue that we could draft the prototype, lead-up player that Ross was seeking. Drain came around to the idea and Ross reluctantly relented, but not before letting me know how disappointed he was in passing up on Fisher.
St Kilda's drafts 2007-10
2007
Ben McEvoy (9), Jack Steven (42), Fraser Gehrig (57), Eljay Connors (70)
2008
Tom Lynch (13), Rhys Stanley (47), Nick Heyne (48), Alistair Smith (62), Paul Cahill (74), Colm Begley (83)
2009
Nick Winmar (32), Jesse Smith (60), Adam Pattison (64), Will Johnson (77)
2010
Jamie Cripps (24), Sam Crocker (43), Tom Ledger (59), Arryn Siposs (75), Ryan Gamble (90), Dean Polo (103)
As time went on, the divide between Ross and I got bigger.
He believed that players needed to serve a three-year apprenticeship, which I agreed with up to a point.
Former Saint and Kangaroo Nick Dal Santo rapt up Ross on Fox Footy’s Open Mike, but acknowledged that he treated young players as virtual witch’s hats at training. It was often a case of “stand over there and don’t get in the way”.
In 2009 Jack Steven was playing consistently good football in the VFL but could not get a look in.
Drain was pushing for Jack and Tom to get games, as he knew they might be needed in finals if there were injuries.
At the same time, Sean Dempster, who was a wonderful servant of the club and became an All-Australian half-back, was improvising as a lead-up forward — the very role Tom had been drafted to fill. It didn’t make sense.
One can’t help but wonder what might have been considering Tom has become the linchpin (excuse the pun) for Adelaide.
As for Jack, he was twice the player of Robert Eddy and by 2010 had more to offer than Andrew McQualter and Brett Peake, but Ross would not entertain playing him.
Ross made me a better recruiter by holding me to a high level of account. I didn’t always agree with his management methods or philosophies, but I came to understand his expectations and worked to these accordingly.
My time at St Kilda certainly helped hone my recruiting strategies.
Ross wanted each recruiter to present to him their draft order.
I had some concerns that this could be divisive, while veteran Saints recruiter John Beveridge was reluctant to commit himself to player rankings or making decisions during the year, and sometimes, until the night of the draft.
This is where he and I had disagreements, although I don’t blame John.
He had worked independently for so long that he found it challenging to all of sudden have to collaborate with others.
The assistant coaches at St Kilda were terrific and I felt wonderfully supported by each of them. In my time we had Stephen Silvagni, Anthony Rock, John Barker, Elshaug, Andy Lovell, Leigh Tudor and Danny Sexton.
The fact that Ross was so relentless and demanding of his staff is essentially what banded us together.
By 2010 Ross was taking more of an interest in the draft and having most of the say. That’s when I decided my time was up.
The final straw came when he ridiculed me for having “burned” first-round selections on slow players (McEvoy and Lynch).
Shortly after I received an email from Greg Hutchison, who had replaced Drain as football manager, informing me that Ross had been placed in charge of list management.
Consequently, my services would not be required during the upcoming trade period and that Ross would basically be calling all of the shots.
I will say that when I resigned Ross tried to talk me around. I took him at his word that he was sincere.
One of my final duties at St Kilda was overseeing the 2010 national draft.
The recruiters had wanted to use selection 24 on Jack Darling, but were overruled by Ross.
He wanted to select runners and had the final say (St Kilda selected Jamie Cripps at pick No.24, the small forward who would go on to be a premiership player at West Coast alongside Darling).
Ross is intelligent. I believe he was a high achiever academically and is meticulous in his preparation and planning. He has taken two clubs to Grand Finals and would be a premiership coach if not for an unwieldy bounce of the ball in the dying stages of the 2010 drawn Grand Final.
My experience with Ross is that he didn’t have great faith in people outside his inner circle. He found it difficult to trust people and it’s largely the reason he micromanaged so much at St Kilda.
As an observer from afar, it would appear Ross is reinventing himself in the way he is bringing through a group of talented young players at Fremantle.
THE FOUR PILLARS OF RECRUITING
John Peake, who is building a manuscript that outlines the skills of recruiting, details his four key planks to drafting successful players.
1. CAN HE PLAY?
This component takes in football skill, ability to read the play and decision making.
2. MENTAL STRENGTH
Can the player stand up to the constant pressure of the work needed to prepare and perform each week? Is the player competitive by nature? Has he overcome a setback, shown resilience?
3. PHYSICAL MAKE-UP
Will the player’s build and/or strength help or hinder his game?
4. ATHLETIC ABILITY.
How does the player rate aerobically, for speed and agility? The weighting applied to each athletic trait is relative to the role the footballer is required to perform. High football IQ will invariably compensate for a lack of leg speed.
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FOUR PILLARS
Pillar 1 has the most influence on how good an AFL player he will be. If a player does not rate very good or high in Pillar 2 then I believe he will not make it. Strong ratings in Pillars 3 and 4 can offset some deficiencies in Pillars 1 and 2, which are still the most important.
