Culture of St Kilda Football Club

[Sanctorum]

As every ageing Saints supporter knows, following our footy club has never been easy, and has only rarely given us a season where we have been able to enjoy a modicum of success by playing finals - 1961, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1970, 1971- 1973, 1991 -1992, 1997-1998, 2004-2006, 2008-2011, 2020; not what you would call a culture of sustained success!

Indeed, coping with failure almost earned us a badge of honour, St Kilda (and Footscray) were one of the worst performing teams of the competition, the team that supporters of every other club hoped to play twice every year!

We looked with envy on the teams that had a consistently strong culture of success - Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney to name a few, never really considering how our club could emulate such a culture. But unlike the forenamed clubs, in the aftermath of St Kilda's successful years, notably 2004-2011, the proverbial wheels fell of the bus and the team once again sunk to the bottom of the ladder and facing a difficult climb back to the top 8....

This awakening came to me after watching AFL360 last week when Jarryd Roughead responded to a question from Mark Robinson by saying that he and a number of other coaches/support staff from clubs with cultures of prolonged success that have been brought into the club by Finnis/Lethlean, had recently set out a programme of "educating" the current playing list to take this opportunity to be the first group to change St Kilda's culture of decades of failure and make history by becoming the first team to win a premiership since 1966.

I don't recall ever hearing or reading about any board/senior executives/senior coaches making such a declaration - that winning is one thing, but building on these wins and committing to change the club's culture is an entirely different matter. This has to be the prime responsibility of the President and his board, and the club's CEO - to ensure a total focus and commitment to this objective.

It explains why St Kilda has for donkeys years never been able to attract a really big name corporate sponsor - no disrespect to the club's current sponsors but they're not household names like Emirates Airlines, Ford, Mazda, Hyundai, VW, QBE, Zurich, Jaguar, and many more.

Our club needs to emulate the transformation of the Western Bulldogs who appear to have succeeded in developing a culture of sustained success - if they can do it, so can the Saints!

[cwrcyn]

Often, it comes down to money. The successful clubs of the 70s and 80s all had big financial backers and a lot of money went under the table to procure high end talent from interstate and other clubs. There's a lot of mythology about football clubs and their culture. Carlton partied just as hard as the Saints during the 80s but had success because they were bankrolled by Richard Pratt and John Elliott. They would just get out the cash and buy top class talent from WA and SA. St Kilda, on the other hand were in terrible debt because of high interest rates in paying for the Huggins stand at Moorabbin. When you're barely surviving financially, things have to give. It's survival mode. Fitzroy went through it and it ended them. I know someone who was close to the action at North Melbourne during their successful period in the 90s and I was told that their culture was horrible. Lots of players at that club were not very nice people. Premiership = good culture, non finalists = bad culture. A simpleton's logic.

So.... you can talk about culture all you like and point the finger at your own club, but a lot of what's been written about our club in the past 30 years in particular has been utter crap trotted out by lazy journalists. Yes, we had a poor administration from the last 70s to the late 80's but we've had far better people involved since then, and but for a pinch of luck in 1997, 2009, and 2010 this myth would be dead in the water.

[cwrcyn]

As for the Bulldogs, that's primarily been about recruiting. Every club's success depends on securing the best talent. It doesn't matter how well an administration is run, if you fail at the draft table, the football club fails. So-called super coaches Mick Mathouse and Denis Pagan went to Carlton and failed abysmally. Bottom line was that the playing lists weren't good enough and no amount finals coaching experience was going to turn a mediocre playing list into a powerhouse. Funny how all the great coaches had fantastic playing lists and superstar players. Ron Barrassi was the God of football when he was coaching Carlton. He went to Melbourne (which had just a reasonable playing list) and couldn't turn them into finals contenders after five years coaching them. Once agin, there are a lot of myths in football.

[spert]

I seem to remember the Bulldogs got a fair bit of money out a Howard govt scheme when he was trying to buy votes in the west maybe back in the 2000s?

[B.M]

Amen

cwrcyn

[SydneySainter]

I think St. Kilda’s time to establish itself as a sustainable operation in Melbourne has come and gone.

There isn’t room for 10 Vic teams in the long term, the AFL just isn’t prepared to publicly admit it.

We couldn’t have been some form of viability between the 04 to 10 era, what makes us think that we can replicate the Dogs model?

The future is either a merger, or a relocation to Tasmania.

[cwrcyn]

Re-location to Tasmania is not an awful prospect. Eight games in Tasmania, eight games in Melbourne, and the rest interstate. As long as some favourable arrangement can be made for members where we could get access to away games in Melbourne, and it meant our membership would grow and flourish, I'd be happy with that. However, to remain where we are and become a top team here in Melbourne is my preference.

[Vortex]

Attitude is everything. We have one of the more talented list of players we have had for a decade but we just don't have a collective mindset to give 100% for 100% of the time. We pick and choose when to bring effort and when to be a competitive beast. Clearly losses are acceptable. That's our culture.

[The Fireman]

One of the founding clubs of the game

We stay where we like to stay thank you very much

[Ghost Like]

Excellent OP Sanctorum and equally good follow up cwrcyn. I also think you need a lot of professionalism by the coaches and players, that buy in to a plan hatched by the Board. They can play as hard as they like as long as they work harder.

For players, coaches, staff, executives to bemoan the state of the Club when they arrive suggests issues that are deeply ingrained. Is that what culture in football means? Issues that are seemingly too hard to address.

[Trev from the Bush]

One of the founding clubs of the game

We stay where we like to stay thank you very much

But the JO is the go!

[Teflon]

As for the Bulldogs, that's primarily been about recruiting. Every club's success depends on securing the best talent. It doesn't matter how well an administration is run, if you fail at the draft table, the football club fails. So-called super coaches Mick Mathouse and Denis Pagan went to Carlton and failed abysmally. Bottom line was that the playing lists weren't good enough and no amount finals coaching experience was going to turn a mediocre playing list into a powerhouse. Funny how all the great coaches had fantastic playing lists and superstar players. Ron Barrassi was the God of football when he was coaching Carlton. He went to Melbourne (which had just a reasonable playing list) and couldn't turn them into finals contenders after five years coaching them. Once agin, there are a lot of myths in football.

Culture isn’t a myth and it’s not all about money - sure, it helps, but the adage success breeds success has done truth
Hawthorn were broke and about to merge some very astute people got involved and turned the place into “the family club” it wasn’t always so and they too were once a basket case. Not now years of sustained success means you know Hawthorn will come again...there’s a level of belief they will. Not do for us, let’s face it we’ve had poor administration time after time ...the recent Moorabbin Seaford Moorabbin was a **** shambles, sold our heart cause some dypshyte (who deep down doesn’t really care about the club) had a fight with the council. Good clubs, good admins don’t make stupid decisions like that. One of the things with us is we are a club that IMO more than any other celebrates the individual. That’s natural cause “team success” has been few and far between. People idolise players to the point of not being able to see their real value to the team - we even did it via the GT regime for a while (and it was a regime). Hawks trade Franklin, a superstar, go on and win flags ...there’s a bigger picture.
Ofcourse you need the players, good recruiting etc but again culture plays a part. I heard Brian Cooke speak one night how at Geelong when they wanted Gary Ablett Jnr back it was the players who collectively agreed what extra he could and should be paid above the rest of the list. They signed off on that so there was no “saviour” mentality or an unbalanced salary cap where everything went to 1 guy but overall the focus was strengthen the team ...take less to do so. I’ve never heard of St Kilda having anything near that.
I’m really pleased to hear what Roughead said on 360 - it’s often astounded me that in the AFL we (Melb too) are the last true ultimate test - if you as a player want to be immortalised, remembered with a true legacy ....then be a member of St Kikdas next Premiership side...smash this unwritten “poor Saints, always just the victim of bad luck” mentality. I think it’s about time we started the conversation on what it takes to be great abs not just for 1 season ....for a true dynasty ....I felt had we snuck one under Lyon we had a shot.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

All good points.

Truth is, it's an unholy mixture.

Inferior finances. Poor recruiting. Admins making bewildering decisions. Carpetbaggers.

And a culture that makes this sort of acceptable, even expected.

GT, for all his flaws, at least introduced a culture of 24/7 St Kilda.

That's what we need now. 100% St Kilda. If you're 99%, GTFO.

[cwrcyn]

There was one absolute nut job on the Kingston council who was a complete obstructionist. Yes, Archie Fraser was a complete failure for our club, but again, we were in a tricky financial position. Had we not been servicing a debt inherited from a 1960s administration, we would never had needed to leave Moorabbin

You also have to also consider that the AFL for decades did us no favours, while accommodating certain clubs in Melbourne at our expense. It was definitely a boys club, but we weren't in it, and we spent three decades banging our heads against the wall while some clubs were given a nudge and a wink. Demetriou was the worst. He had a hatred for us.

I've heard Carlton supporters complain about their club for the past 25 years, I heard Richmond supporters moan for 30 years before their recent rise. They attacked their administrations, club culture, etc. Carlton supporters still do.

Yes, you have to have a competent administration, and I believe we do. The important thing is not to panic as we did when Sheldon was coach and when Alves was coach. We got close and then lost our nerve.

I get the impression that this administration will not lose their nerve. It's a matter of planning, patience, and good recruiting. Without good recruiting, the greatest administrators in the world wouldn't make a difference.

[The Fireman]

One of the founding clubs of the game

We stay where we like to stay thank you very much

But the JO is the go!

Correct

[Lennylegs]

Anyone on here advocating for us to relocate or merge needs to take a decent look at themselves as a St Kilda supporter. That's the kind of weak-kneed capitulation that we as a football club need to distance ourselves from.

Can't believe how quickly and easily some people on here turn. Lose a game and suddenly we're moving to Tassie. Beyond pathetic.

[SydneySainter]

Anyone on here advocating for us to relocate or merge needs to take a decent look at themselves as a St Kilda supporter. That's the kind of weak-kneed capitulation that we as a football club need to distance ourselves from.

Can't believe how quickly and easily some people on here turn. Lose a game and suddenly we're moving to Tassie. Beyond pathetic.

It's not about losing one game, it's that I don't see St. Kilda being able to sustain itself in the current competition.

If sustainability couldn't be achieved off the back of '04-'10 period, I just don't think it will ever achieved in Melbourne, especially with the current administration.

[Yorkeys]

The culture is changing for the better. Good coaches good Pres. Inspirational captain. Recruiting recently been ok overall.

But we know change takes time and players that won't or can't get on board have to go over time. However AFL does not have flexible employment arrangements and most players take plenty of games to become consistently good.

Saturday's loss like the Adelaide loss showed we have a long way to go, but getting there, building blocks in place. The hardest for me is when we do brilliant for a couple of weeks then revert to poor under pressure.

Its not just us improving unilaterally as a club, all clubs have good players and good coaches so improvement has to be relative as well as individually/team wise. Isn't it conventional wisdom that McCartney set up the Dogs for Bevo to guide to finals by doing the tough things and making himself unpopular in the process. It seems a number of unpopular things have been put to the Saints players and seemingly the Club has won that argument for the time being. Guys not on board will be nervously looking at the injured list for there is plenty of hard talent in waiting.

Suggestions of unsustainability or relocation are silly and probably just trolling attempts.

[CURLY]

We really need a change in luck with Father sons or Academy kids. Its such a huge advantage something we haven't had the benefit of as yet. We got stiffed with the zones when Hawthorn got the Morning peninsula.

[Ghost Like]

We really need a change in luck with Father sons or Academy kids. Its such a huge advantage something we haven't had the benefit of as yet. We got stiffed with the zones when Hawthorn got the Morning peninsula.

That's quite true, Geelong, The Bulldogs & Collingwood have all benefited nicely from one or both. It's a nice leg up. A lot nicer back when the Cats got their gifts.

[CURLY]

We really need a change in luck with Father sons or Academy kids. Its such a huge advantage something we haven't had the benefit of as yet. We got stiffed with the zones when Hawthorn got the Morning peninsula.

That's quite true, Geelong, The Bulldogs & Collingwood have all benefited nicely from one or both. It's a nice leg up. A lot nicer back when the Cats got their gifts.

Not to mention the Academy picks. Geelongs father son pick in 2006 set them up for 14 years.

[Lennylegs]

The culture is changing for the better. Good coaches good Pres. Inspirational captain. Recruiting recently been ok overall.

But we know change takes time and players that won't or can't get on board have to go over time. However AFL does not have flexible employment arrangements and most players take plenty of games to become consistently good.

Saturday's loss like the Adelaide loss showed we have a long way to go, but getting there, building blocks in place. The hardest for me is when we do brilliant for a couple of weeks then revert to poor under pressure.

Its not just us improving unilaterally as a club, all clubs have good players and good coaches so improvement has to be relative as well as individually/team wise. Isn't it conventional wisdom that McCartney set up the Dogs for Bevo to guide to finals by doing the tough things and making himself unpopular in the process. It seems a number of unpopular things have been put to the Saints players and seemingly the Club has won that argument for the time being. Guys not on board will be nervously looking at the injured list for there is plenty of hard talent in waiting.

Suggestions of unsustainability or relocation are silly and probably just trolling attempts.

Yeah I shouldn't have taken the bait earlier. Regretted it as soon as I responded.

[SydneySainter]

All good points.

Truth is, it's an unholy mixture.

Inferior finances. Poor recruiting. Admins making bewildering decisions. Carpetbaggers.

And a culture that makes this sort of acceptable, even expected.

GT, for all his flaws, at least introduced a culture of 24/7 St Kilda.

That's what we need now. 100% St Kilda. If you're 99%, GTFO.

Agreed.

Wasn’t much of a GT fan technically when it came to him as a senior coach, but there is no denying that he was 100% St. Kilda during his time at the helm.

If he’d refrained from being the senior coach, but stayed within a development coach, football director and / or list management role, who knows...

[SydneySainter]

The culture is changing for the better. Good coaches good Pres. Inspirational captain. Recruiting recently been ok overall.

But we know change takes time and players that won't or can't get on board have to go over time. However AFL does not have flexible employment arrangements and most players take plenty of games to become consistently good.

Saturday's loss like the Adelaide loss showed we have a long way to go, but getting there, building blocks in place. The hardest for me is when we do brilliant for a couple of weeks then revert to poor under pressure.

Its not just us improving unilaterally as a club, all clubs have good players and good coaches so improvement has to be relative as well as individually/team wise. Isn't it conventional wisdom that McCartney set up the Dogs for Bevo to guide to finals by doing the tough things and making himself unpopular in the process. It seems a number of unpopular things have been put to the Saints players and seemingly the Club has won that argument for the time being. Guys not on board will be nervously looking at the injured list for there is plenty of hard talent in waiting.

Suggestions of unsustainability or relocation are silly and probably just trolling attempts.

Why is it trolling? Only a real supporter if you speak no evil of the club?

I just don’t see St. Kilda FC as a sustainable operation in the current AFL structure. Why is to think otherwise trolling?

[Devilhead]

Anyone on here advocating for us to relocate or merge needs to take a decent look at themselves as a St Kilda supporter. That's the kind of weak-kneed capitulation that we as a football club need to distance ourselves from.

Can't believe how quickly and easily some people on here turn. Lose a game and suddenly we're moving to Tassie. Beyond pathetic.

It's not about losing one game, it's that I don't see St. Kilda being able to sustain itself in the current competition.

If sustainability couldn't be achieved off the back of '04-'10 period, I just don't think it will ever achieved in Melbourne, especially with the current administration.

Why wont we survive the current competition?

We have a great facility in RSEA Park and are well located in Melbourne's South-SouthEast

We currently have higher membership numbers than 3 other Victorian clubs and 5 interstate clubs - so sit 10th overall

Played Finals last year and are around the mark this year with a strong base of younger players

Pretty sure we have seen darker days yet we still stand