Seb Ross, Tim Membrey, Jake Carlisle family leave.

[shanegrambeau]

Can we have a mature conversation?

I happen to agree with the sentiment of Caroline Wilson this time…she is one of the few people who can say it, as men and it is mostly men, understandably scramble for the shelter in the bunker of ‘empathy’, ‘it’s 2021 not 1951’, ‘I’m not a racist, bigot, anti-inclusionist’ and any other meme which absolutely - and I am serious - absolutely, if not saluted to and ticked off, bowed to, and respectfully acknowledged, can simply end you career, cancel your subscription to society as a whole, ostracize yourself from all. You may as well put on a Nazi arm band.

But what shall we now do folks?

Our club has let go Nathan Brown last year when we desperately needed him, Jake Carlisle, Membrey and Ross and Paddy Ryder at crucial junctures in the season, for personal and family reasons. Once one of them goes, they can all go of course.

Look at how Melbourne managed their star expecting a baby this week and contrast it to St Kilda?

So what do we do?
We should, I believe, introduce a clause in all contracts, buy insurance or lobby the AFL.

Can we change the fixture so that nobody had reason to miss for baby reasons?

Now don’t pretend it is some fundamental human rights thing. Or if it is? Membership and support of a club or a footy team is now rendered obsolete. It’s useless, folly. The race to demonstrate compassion (and it’s a very different thing to actually having compassion) is a very recent phenomenon that is now a slippery slide. St Kilda seems to be in a race to be the most compassionate club and many males are in the race to the North Pole to stick in their flag pole, to shout loudest down upon the world below about how dreadful this lack of compassion is.

Of course we need to give people leave in unforeseen circumstances. But having a family is not something people don’t foresee. When people sign contracts, they should have their managers negotiate a clause for maternity leave.

If Tim Membrey and Seb Ross have to go home for their family, St Kilda should have the right to de-select two Adelaide players as compensation….otherwise those in the Adelaide camp simply are bigots themselves! They are not respecting the Ross family and the Membrey family.

I am appalled that we let Nathan Brown slide last year…more so than Carlisle go home. What is more disturbing is the that silence and the cartoon speak , or should I say non- speak of people in general. But I am pissing in the wind…it is simply something we cannot discuss..it can only go one way, straight into the face of those who dare to intercede the flow. There are millions of men, dying to get that pass out of perjury by accusing the man beside them.

[saynta]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

[CURLY]

Should have played they're contracted to play. One game can mean a season is wasted. Carlisle was far worse.

[Life Long Saint]

Gary Ablett left for a large part of last season to be with his family...And was applauded for it.
Our players leave for part of the season to be with family...and they are criticised for it.
Geelong are a strong team. We are not.
Is that the only issue?
We need our administration to come out swinging hard and defend the players.
We need that to happen right now.

[Moods]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

I think that’s the mature response the OP was looking for.

She may well be a bitch, but she’s right IMO.

[The Craw]

It was ok for 2 senior Richmond players (Edwards & Houli) to take leave last year but not Membrey, Ross and Carlisle..... yeh righto.

[older saint]

Family more important than anything else, end of discussion.

[CQ SAINT]

Nathan Brown retired and you have often said you don't have a membership, your support is appreciated here but what is it that you get from it. Are you questioning your own values?

[spert]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

We might not like some of her views on the Saints, but keep your gutter language off this forum thanks.

[Vortex]

I was once told by a maternity nurse that a mans presence for the birth of a child was once secret woman's business.

There's ya answer right there, meaning football used to be secret men's business and so to miss a game of footy due to secret woman's business would have been almost as career ending as coming out as gay.

Thankfully the world is a much more inclusive place these days but clearly we still have a bit to go.

But I do ask the question, is the decision making easier when you aren't in contention?

[Impatient Sainter]

Is Wilson a mother herself?

Just did a Wikipedia search she has 3 kids, obviously her work has always taken a priority?

[The_Dud]

A few long bows being drawn in the OP.

Football is a job, and family is more important than work. If I went to my employer tomorrow and said I need 2 weeks off for family reasons, they'd say "no worries, is 2 weeks enough?"

Also forcing someone to do something they don't want isn't the best way to get optimal performance.

[IluvHarvey]

I have never had an issue with any player taking time off for Personal, Family or Mental Health reasons.
Surely in this mad covid world the importance of Family and Mental Health has risen.

[Banger9798]

I do question these absences.
Especially Carlisle in the final against Tigers.

No doubt these decisions are difficult but it demonstrates where the players minds are at.

Sick kids or spouse... no question, straight home

A bit of a preparation for birth of child....no way.

If Members has gone back to hug his wife and wallpaper the creche... and I'm not suggesting it is,,...but if its along that level of urgency, then I think it is soft.

[Moods]

A few long bows being drawn in the OP.

Football is a job, and family is more important than work. If I went to my employer tomorrow and said I need 2 weeks off for family reasons, they'd say "no worries, is 2 weeks enough?"

Also forcing someone to do something they don't want isn't the best way to get optimal performance.

Yeah - do you earn between 500-800k a year? Is your work determined by 6 months of the year results? My employer would do the same for me as yours would. Yet I understand that my circumstances don't demand anything like what these guys do.

Speaking of long bows. Comparing Gary Ablett juniors situation to our players by one poster on here is ridiculous. If a member of Seb or Tim's family were critically ill or there was a problem with the health of a loved one, particularly an immediate family member, then taking time off is a no brainer. Bloody hell, Seb had already missed a game so that he could be at the birth.

We're part time footballers supported by a coach who I reckon has been massively influenced by tragic events in his life which is clouding his judgement on these things.

Family is more important than work? Yeah righto, until there is no work and your family isn't very happy with you. These guys are millionaire footballers who can afford nanny's, cleaners, cooks if they want. They live a lifestyle most of us would kill for. Partners are struggling with young children at home so they take off whilst the season is on the line and the club is cruelled with injuries. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable.

Such a flippant comment, 'family is more important.' As the OP states, almost impossible to argue against until you see the circumstances. Makes you sound like a good compassionate guy when you argue for it as if there's no grey. I see ppl literally tearing the club to shreds on social media for our loss on the weekend. I GUARANTEE that a good % of them would have been all for Seb and Tim going home to their partners. The irony being that if both had of played on Saturday night, we almost certainly would have won. Well if you're all for players taking off to hold their partners hand then you really have no right to squeal about the result on the weekend, especially when we lose by under a goal.

[shanegrambeau]

I do question these absences.
Especially Carlisle in the final against Tigers.

No doubt these decisions are difficult but it demonstrates where the players minds are at.

Sick kids or spouse... no question, straight home

A bit of a preparation for birth of child....no way.

If Members has gone back to hug his wife and wallpaper the creche... and I'm not suggesting it is,,...but if its along that level of urgency, then I think it is soft.

Thank you for saying so Banger. I am not implicating you with me in that camp of lepers on the wrong side of history….

It is so easily to spout platitudes like family is more important than football (I forgive anyone who does though)

Of course family is more important than football… Geez…

I am trying to open the conversation, but I am in dangerous waters.

I like the way Melbourne handled it this week with McDonald.

I feel sorry for Ratten…
The losses count against him…the lost points count against him…nobody will applaud him for coaching the compassionate inclusive club…

Garry Lyons and Tim Watsons wooden bombastic morality toward Wilson I note and I note the easy way they don’t mind Mackay crushing Hunter Clark’s jaw in the mans game too. Not related? Sure..

We are living in the hueristic web ….you said x and so it means you be y and z too…and know knows? Siberia salt mines, do not pass go..you are merely giving others a way to feel better about themselves by attacking you, rather ‘pointing out’ new order as if it were always true…and as if they always knew it, from birth.

I’ll stop.

Yes, we know ‘family comes first’,

Now, wait for the joke,

Hey Shane Grambeau, family comes first. lol

Actually we should ban families, all families banned. Except at Hawthorn, the family club, after you lose the family money at their gambling dens!

[Banger9798]

In the current climate , discussions seem to be very difficult.
Slogans seem to forestall reasoning.

Very few things are straightforward, and the tendency to reduce complex issues to bumper stickers is a sad reflection on where we're at.
Good on you Shane for trying to have a good faith discussion about a tricky subject..

[Wayne42]

I watched Footy Classified last night, i knew Caro was opening a can of worms as soon as she said her piece.

Good on her for having the balls to express an opinion.

[The_Dud]

A few long bows being drawn in the OP.

Football is a job, and family is more important than work. If I went to my employer tomorrow and said I need 2 weeks off for family reasons, they'd say "no worries, is 2 weeks enough?"

Also forcing someone to do something they don't want isn't the best way to get optimal performance.

Yeah - do you earn between 500-800k a year? Is your work determined by 6 months of the year results? My employer would do the same for me as yours would. Yet I understand that my circumstances don't demand anything like what these guys do.

Speaking of long bows. Comparing Gary Ablett juniors situation to our players by one poster on here is ridiculous. If a member of Seb or Tim's family were critically ill or there was a problem with the health of a loved one, particularly an immediate family member, then taking time off is a no brainer. Bloody hell, Seb had already missed a game so that he could be at the birth.

We're part time footballers supported by a coach who I reckon has been massively influenced by tragic events in his life which is clouding his judgement on these things.

Family is more important than work? Yeah righto, until there is no work and your family isn't very happy with you. These guys are millionaire footballers who can afford nanny's, cleaners, cooks if they want. They live a lifestyle most of us would kill for. Partners are struggling with young children at home so they take off whilst the season is on the line and the club is cruelled with injuries. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable.

Such a flippant comment, 'family is more important.' As the OP states, almost impossible to argue against until you see the circumstances. Makes you sound like a good compassionate guy when you argue for it as if there's no grey. I see ppl literally tearing the club to shreds on social media for our loss on the weekend. I GUARANTEE that a good % of them would have been all for Seb and Tim going home to their partners. The irony being that if both had of played on Saturday night, we almost certainly would have won. Well if you're all for players taking off to hold their partners hand then you really have no right to squeal about the result on the weekend, especially when we lose by under a goal.

Is salary the determining factor in the importance of someone's job?

How can you speak for the health of either of the families?

I'm glad you see the husband/father role is easily replaced by a nanny/cook/cleaner.

Family is more important. I doubt many on their death beds are lamenting not working longer / playing more games of footy.

We also would have won last week if most of the 22 in Cairns didn't decide to take of half way through the game.

[Sanctorum]

Yeah - do you earn between 500-800k a year? Is your work determined by 6 months of the year results? My employer would do the same for me as yours would. Yet I understand that my circumstances don't demand anything like what these guys do.

Speaking of long bows. Comparing Gary Ablett juniors situation to our players by one poster on here is ridiculous. If a member of Seb or Tim's family were critically ill or there was a problem with the health of a loved one, particularly an immediate family member, then taking time off is a no brainer. Bloody hell, Seb had already missed a game so that he could be at the birth.

We're part time footballers supported by a coach who I reckon has been massively influenced by tragic events in his life which is clouding his judgement on these things.

Family is more important than work? Yeah righto, until there is no work and your family isn't very happy with you. These guys are millionaire footballers who can afford nanny's, cleaners, cooks if they want. They live a lifestyle most of us would kill for. Partners are struggling with young children at home so they take off whilst the season is on the line and the club is cruelled with injuries. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable.

Such a flippant comment, 'family is more important.' As the OP states, almost impossible to argue against until you see the circumstances. Makes you sound like a good compassionate guy when you argue for it as if there's no grey. I see ppl literally tearing the club to shreds on social media for our loss on the weekend. I GUARANTEE that a good % of them would have been all for Seb and Tim going home to their partners. The irony being that if both had of played on Saturday night, we almost certainly would have won. Well if you're all for players taking off to hold their partners hand then you really have no right to squeal about the result on the weekend, especially when we lose by under a goal.

The highlighted remarks are extremely offensive Moods and shows a complete lack of understanding of the way individuals have to contend with the massive grief of losing a child in tragic circumstances - are you suggesting that Ratten should not show compassion to his players' personal issues??

Do you also condemn players who struggle with mental health illness as a result of numerous concussions - you probably also disagree that the AFL require concussed players to be subbed off and not being selected until they pass the relevant HIA tests....

In my book a coach who mentors his players has to be commended for supporting them in their hours of need!

[Freebird]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

We might not like some of her views on the Saints, but keep your gutter language off this forum thanks.

FFS spert.....wilson who has no feelings for anyone she reports on except richmond should not be allowed to report on family values

[Bruce G McAbee]

Gee, don't let players go home for the birth of their child or important family matters. Yeah that's great PR there, especially with players like Membrey and Ross who are well respected and liked.
First of all, the seasons been lost for weeks, there was no way we were making finals this year and we have known that since the Geelong lost, well hey since the Bulldogs debacle.
But, to tell Membrey and Ross they can't go home for what they requested to, and throw Ryder in there as well, you can probably expect a full on player revolt and kiss goodbye doing any recruiting or hanging onto players for a while.
I don't care what Caro says, she's a dinosaur from a bygone age. Oh yes the club is paying these guys good money, but it's also the club's responsibility to look after these players while they are in our employ both physically and psychologically.
Doing that would make the St.Kilda football club a pariah in the AFL, as I said, great PR.

[CQ SAINT]

Regardless of which side of the family/work side you fall on, does the very real threat of immediate extended lockdown due to Covid count in considering family leave from playing football.

[Freebird]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

We might not like some of her views on the Saints, but keep your gutter language off this forum thanks.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I agree with the sentiments of the OP, though it's hard to argue against time off for the birth of a baby every now and then.

What might be called "the Finnis mindset" has taken over this club and I don't believe it's a good thing. Finnis was CEO of the Players Association and came to the club with a "player welfare first" mentality.

Add to that an admin that was eager to distance itself from the trumped-up scandals of the past (e.g. the St Kilda schoolgirl) and you have a perfect storm of wokeness.

Footy is still a supremely masculine game that requires intense discipline, courage, endurance, one-sightedness and a bit of killer instinct.

This sits very uneasily with the empathy blanket that's been thrown over the Saints.

The empathy validates emotional fluctuations and leads to an unstable, volatile mentality.

Get rid of the hippies and psychologists and bring in some men.