The only thing this club …

[Saintmatt]

Oh yeah - and keep that ball butchering fuckw1t Dunstan in the team.

You are a disgrace of a supporter

Yes you might be upset about the team, most of us are but that gives you no right to use that type of abuse against a Sainter

I presume it was the use of the term "fuckw1t" that rankled you TSR and if so, I'll cop that- fair play. I presume however that you took no umbrage with the term "ball butchering" as that's merely a statement of fact.

However, a disgrace or not - if I was that atrocious at a key component of my day job (i.e. basic skill execution) , I'd wholly expect the people that pay my wages to review my performance accordingly.

[saynta]

No player deserves to be called a fwit IMHFO.

Poor show mate.

[Saintmatt]

No player deserves to be called a fwit IMHFO.

Poor show mate.

Did I not accept that?

[lewdogs]

The club still has to try and win. Wr have a young team, we need to learn to win.

Playing a team of kids and getting flogged every week doesn't help anyone.

[Teflon]

I think there is a lot of confirmation bias going on with Dunstan. When you're looking for him to miss a kick it stands out when it happens, but you're then ignoring the other 20+ touches.

Sinclair turned it over twice in 2 minutes, Hill turned it over (best disposal in the comp?), Ross missed a goal from the goal square...

Dunstan had the same amount of 'clangers' as Steele, Ross, Butler and Sinclair.

He more than deserves his spot ATM, if we had a full list to choose from then maybe he wouldn't be in the 22, but we don't have that luxury right now.

Here's the thing Dud - this is not confirmation bias with Dunstan (and I do know what that means in a psych sense) - it's where the Dunstan mistakes so often happen. Quite frankly - Ross has been terrific this year but despite the ppl on here who'll gush over his B & F's - he's also had rubbish disposal by foot and it didn't really surprise me that much that he missed from the edge of the goal square. But that hurts proportionally less than a corridor kick or missed handball to the opposition at half back when the backs have all split to overlap and are then out of shape.

I'd argue that the clangers of others you mention were when under pressure or biting off a bit much and risky (Webster is the king of this but he's trying to create and presumably has a mandate). Dunstan's regularly are not - he's just a terrible kick that costs time and time again. You cannot have players in your team in modern footy - where ball retention is everything - that cannot hit a target. Especially midfielders.

For the record - I have never heard any one ever regard Hill as the best disposal in the comp - I suspect that's your own confirmation bias coming through.

As for deserving his spot - that's your opinion - but I'd much rather LEARN what Bytel and Connolly have than see what I already know Dunstan to have. Winning by 4 goals over Adelaide (or losing) with Dunstan (and Long and Lonie) in the team is a waste of a game.

Youve said it well
To pick at a Sinclair’s disposal changers (he made a howler under pressure) against Dunstan’s without context is misleading. I’ve seen Sinclair without direct pressure hit a player on the chest going into forward 50. I’ve watched Dunstan under little pressure kick it along the ground. It’s not a 1 off either let’s be honest he’s not a good finisher. Neither was Clint Jones who learnt to handball lots..I’d argue Dunstan fails the “basics” hurdle and as noted above I know what I have...we are 3-4 years off challenging....the future is Bytel.
Kent’s another - just can’t kick, Melb mates told me that when we recruited him. It’s true. Must go
We must be more stringent here ....they won’t all be Pendlebury but it’d be nice if suspect kicks were not the norm in our team for a change...
We have to raise the bar to be a really good side arguing that players like Dunstan stay on the list hold us back...,may as well kept Newnes and many other suspect by foot players if so ...
Turn em over.

[B.M]

Dunstan has his limitations, we know that

Both skill and fitness

He’s a C Grader with the ability to play the odd very good game

Smashes it at VFL level as an inside mid. Just doesn’t have the running power or foot skills at league level. Very good depth player.

Saintmatt - not sure if you’ve ever kicked a ball in anger, or if you’ve played 100 league games like Dunstan or are remotely as tough as him??? Doubt it… So your opinion of him doesn’t really count for much
And to get personally abusive is typical of that of a keyboard warrior.

Lonie - who has kicked 4 in an AFL game 3 times also has limitations that make him also C Grade. He also stars in the VFL and is handy depth.

Bytel - for all his hype on here, has struggled this season and needs to develop his game

[samuraisaint]

Long and Lonie are both still St Kilda players, and they are certainly required this week.

Does the club no good at all if we lose to last year's wooden spooner by twelve goals or more.

Lonie needs to play at his absolute best, and could kick 3 or four goals against that backline, and Longy needs to focus on the ball, and not lose his temper. Long can be a massive asset to this team if he just concentrates on doing what he does best.

If Walker can't get up tomorrow it is a real chance to win back some respect.

If Walker does get up, I suspect we'll be lucky to even keep it respectable.

[Teflon]

Gone 3 smalls again???
**** me

[B.M]

I think Richmond go with 4 small sometimes

[sendmehomehappy]

I think Richmond go with 4 small sometimes

Yeah, but two of our small forwards are Richmond's # 5+6, and the other one is our #3 and would not get a game with any other AFL club.

[B.M]

Yes

Castagna, Arts and Rioli (who gets dropped every other week)
Are serious guns!

I’ll give you the Lambert/Martin switcheroo in fact Dusty makes their forward line potent - the rest are just role players.

Butler 2020 and Higgins 2021 put up far better numbers than the Richmond smalls

But the actual point was

It’s not about number of smalls in the forward half, it’s the talent.
Remember Milne 176, Schneider 176, McQualter 179

Throw in Wingman Montagna 178, and small defender Baker 179

Size means FA ability means everything

[Crossy66]

It's staggering

My hatred for this Match Committee is fast approaching the level I had for Cho’s dribblers who selected Weller 44 more times than he deserved and put up with Jack Newnes 150 straight games of lazy mediocrity.

Fvck - can’t we just play the only decent kids we have - against a bottom team - to find out whether they’re any good?!?!

Let’s just see if you feel differently after the match.

It’s not about the result FFS. Will you feel better if we beat Adelaide? I sure as s*** won’t. That should be a team you absolutely obliterate … like North (which we didn’t).

So, in the absence of that … why not find out which kids can and cannot play? What are you going to learn about Dunstan this week? That he’s a pitiful excuse for an AFL footballer by foot? That Long is undisciplined ? That Lonie has tricks to burn but is hopeless defending because he’s a midget with no body mass to stick a tackle?

As for Paul Hunter … spare me.

Vomit display by Match Committee

Whats Dunny done to upset your Apple cart?

[cwrcyn]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

[Crossy66]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

[skeptic]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

Isn’t this an argument as to how silly the stats are?
a) who would you rather have
b) whose disposal do you trust more

[Crossy66]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

Isn’t this an argument as to how silly the stats are?
a) who would you rather have
b) whose disposal do you trust more

Depends on the discussion.
If its that Dunny's disposal is so bad, he is not AFL standard, then the facts say otherwise. It seems his mistakes are magnified by a small group of "supporters" armed with pitchforks.
If the discussion is who would you rather or who is the better player, then other factors come into play, like running power, endurance, contested etc.
To me, it should be viewed from a whole of list perspective. Petracca just signed for $6mil, we dont pay Luke that. But our list does need someone to come in for a Steele or Crouch etc. when they inevitably have an injury

[Teflon]

I think Richmond go with 4 small sometimes

Thanks Sherlock cause we compare well to Richmond... that’s why they trade us their leftovers ....have you seen their draft hand this year???? Impressive feeding off poor clubs like us who are desperate to be them...

Honestly you get this stuff from a text book or just make it up?

[Teflon]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

Isn’t this an argument as to how silly the stats are?
a) who would you rather have
b) whose disposal do you trust more

Lol yes it is
Take tennis....I once heard an amazing stat that over a season John Millman had won more points than Djokovic
Yet 1 of these was a multiple slam winner?????
Context sort of matters sometimes...

[B.M]

Is there a stats from winning at clearance and breaking away from stoppage with power?

Also what are the goal kicking stats for Petracca and Dunstan?

Stats are quantitative data

There is also qualitative data that measures impact

[B.M]

Looked it up

Dunstan 1 behind (career average 0.45)

Petracca 13 goals (career average 0.95)

[Crossy66]

Is there a stats from winning at clearance and breaking away from stoppage with power?

Also what are the goal kicking stats for Petracca and Dunstan?

Stats are quantitative data

There is also qualitative data that measures impact

No question as to who is the better player. The discussion was around disposal and by every objective measurement, the comment that his disposal is not at AFL standard is not supported.
Though You might argue that whilst petracca does great things with ball, he butchers it more than Dunny does.

[Ghost Like]

I'm sorry Crossy66, unless you are trout, that makes two people who would prefer to see Petracca not playing for St Kilda.

I know you are utilising stats to stick up for Dunstan but would you prefer to have Dunstan or Petracca at St Kilda?

A possible outlier for your stats is that Petracca uses both sides of his body, not just his favoured.

As pointed out, Dunstan has played 100+ games of AFL for little to no improvement since his early games. I'd love to see what Bytel is like after 100 games but that won't happen if they continue to ignore his development at AFL level by not playing him.

[skeptic]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

Isn’t this an argument as to how silly the stats are?
a) who would you rather have
b) whose disposal do you trust more

Depends on the discussion.
If its that Dunny's disposal is so bad, he is not AFL standard, then the facts say otherwise. It seems his mistakes are magnified by a small group of "supporters" armed with pitchforks.
If the discussion is who would you rather or who is the better player, then other factors come into play, like running power, endurance, contested etc.
To me, it should be viewed from a whole of list perspective. Petracca just signed for $6mil, we dont pay Luke that. But our list does need someone to come in for a Steele or Crouch etc. when they inevitably have an injury

It seems to me that the argument your making is that this select stat suggests that the quality of disposal between the 2 comparable

It’s CLEARLY not

I think this line of discussion is the perfect embodiment of the phrase - numbers lie, and people that lie use numbers to do it

[Crossy66]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

Isn’t this an argument as to how silly the stats are?
a) who would you rather have
b) whose disposal do you trust more

Depends on the discussion.
If its that Dunny's disposal is so bad, he is not AFL standard, then the facts say otherwise. It seems his mistakes are magnified by a small group of "supporters" armed with pitchforks.
If the discussion is who would you rather or who is the better player, then other factors come into play, like running power, endurance, contested etc.
To me, it should be viewed from a whole of list perspective. Petracca just signed for $6mil, we dont pay Luke that. But our list does need someone to come in for a Steele or Crouch etc. when they inevitably have an injury

It seems to me that the argument your making is that this select stat suggests that the quality of disposal between the 2 comparable

It’s CLEARLY not

I think this line of discussion is the perfect embodiment of the phrase - numbers lie, and people that lie use numbers to do it

Not at all, it's not A selective stat, it's every stat used to measure disposal.
Not saying dunny is a better player, not saying I want him over petracca, really not commenting on petracca at all , other than to highlight that every disposal metric has Dunny out ahead of the best player in the comp ATM.
My real point is that anyone that thinks Dunny's disposal is some sort of outlier at the saints is deluded, so why single him out?

[skeptic]

Yep, the killer kick from Dunstan is either the sideways grubber going inside 50 or the overshoot. The problem is that he takes an advantageous situation (no pressure, time and space to deliver, and his team mates running forward of the ball in good position and in the clear) where a decent kick would set up a goal scoring opportunity. Instead, the horrible, inexplicable kick goes to the opposition either directly or strongly to their advantage resulting in a goal for the other team. His handballing is equally sloppy at times, and he fumbles below his knew too often for an AFL midfielder.

I admire his grunt and his effort, but his disposal is something that demoralises his team mates, just like Max King's goal kicking does. When the team works so hard to gain advantage and one of those killer kicks occur, it's horribly deflating

A few facts for you comparing player "A" against Luke Dunstan using 2021 Season averages (i.e.current form).

Player A shown first- Turnovers 6.8 LD 6.3, Disposal Eff A = 61.2% LD 68.7%, Clangers A= 5.6 LD 4.7, Kicking Eff A = 49.5 LD 62.8, Effective Kicks A = 8.4 LD 9

So LD is well ahead of player A in every one of these measurable categories.
Just a couple more
Marks - Player A = 4.8 , LD = 5, Tackles Player A = 4 LD =7.


Player A by the way is none other than the player the pundits rate as currently best in the game - Christian Petracca.
Interesting that whilst Petracca has more possessions P.G, he only has +2 more effective disposals PG and he is supposedly a super star
I guarantee if Bytel was pushing out these numbers he would be touted a Brownlow favorite

Isn’t this an argument as to how silly the stats are?
a) who would you rather have
b) whose disposal do you trust more

Depends on the discussion.
If its that Dunny's disposal is so bad, he is not AFL standard, then the facts say otherwise. It seems his mistakes are magnified by a small group of "supporters" armed with pitchforks.
If the discussion is who would you rather or who is the better player, then other factors come into play, like running power, endurance, contested etc.
To me, it should be viewed from a whole of list perspective. Petracca just signed for $6mil, we dont pay Luke that. But our list does need someone to come in for a Steele or Crouch etc. when they inevitably have an injury

It seems to me that the argument your making is that this select stat suggests that the quality of disposal between the 2 comparable

It’s CLEARLY not

I think this line of discussion is the perfect embodiment of the phrase - numbers lie, and people that lie use numbers to do it

Not at all, it's not A selective stat, it's every stat used to measure disposal.
Not saying dunny is a better player, not saying I want him over petracca, really not commenting on petracca at all , other than to highlight that every disposal metric has Dunny out ahead of the best player in the comp ATM.
My real point is that anyone that thinks Dunny's disposal is some sort of outlier at the saints is deluded, so why single him out?

It’s not an outlier
It just hasn’t been very good for a very very long time. And given that he’s still prone to just some awful decision making that sees him bomb a ball forward without thinking straight to an opposition player... many feel he’s unlikely to change that aspect of his game

Add to that that his ceiling isn’t as high as say Hill and he not nearly as consistent as say a Ross... there are just better prospects out there to sink more development into

Right now he’s better then Byrnes and Bytel. Heck he’s been better then Coffield the last 2 weeks. I’d rather persevere with all three ahead of him