Dunstan or Billings?

[Yorkeys]

Not Webster?

[SaintPav]

We are missing Gresh and Jones for their speed, but both these guys are not known for their disposal efficiency

This is where I cannot understand why Long has to serve such a lengthy absence from the seniors. One of the main reasons we did well last year was the drive he gave us from half back and the scoring chains that he sets up through the middle of the ground.

Jack Sinclair has been brilliant and Ben is one of the few players we have, who is as good a distributor as Sinclair. Why does the team have to pay such a price? We’ve moved Hill into the backline and with Paton and Coff out of the team recently and even with Clark out last week, they couldn’t find a spot in the team for Ben? What the f*** is going on?

There are a few concerns aren't there?

As you have pointed out the ability to develop and get the best out of the list appears to be an issue.

Tigers think they can do something with Mattew Parker. This might be another sign that there may be a problem or two down there.

Moreover, I think it’s more concerning that the kicking issues can’t be addressed internally and players feels the need to ask for outside help. The development of some of our younger players eg Clark, Coffield and Long seems to have stalled. How would they be performing at other clubs? Take Nick Hind for example who is excelling at hangar land.

This will piss off the diehards and loyalists and I know there are resource and funding constraints, but some hard questions need to be asked. Is the standard of our coaching and development staff up to scratch?

[Scollop]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Sadly Banger, that was not the point of the OP. The point of the OP was to only have a crack at Billings.

Yes, but also asking the usual questions regarding selection and just not interested in players like JB being carried by too few while he earns his match payment.

Why did DMac get dropped after 1 game where Dan made a few clangers, when he should have been given a run of games imo and an opportunity to hold down a spot. How many poor games did Butler have? How many did Hill have?

I know that JB won’t be dropped. The selection committee has shown their hand there with all there ‘credits in the bank’ crap. I just want Dunny to play another game before they pull the trigger and drop him because of his terrific effort last week and his ok game today. Wehave injuries to Gears and Wood, so there’s room to retain Luke imo

[IluvHarvey]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Sadly Banger, that was not the point of the OP. The point of the OP was to only have a crack at Billings.

Yes, but also asking the usual questions regarding selection and just not interested in players like JB being carried by too few while he earns his match payment.

Why did DMac get dropped after 1 game where Dan made a few clangers, when he should have been given a run of games imo and an opportunity to hold down a spot. How many poor games did Butler have? How many did Hill have?

I know that JB won’t be dropped. The selection committee has shown their hand there with all there ‘credits in the bank’ crap. I just want Dunny to play another game before they pull the trigger and drop him because of his terrific effort last week and his ok game today. Wehave injuries to Gears and Wood, so there’s room to retain Luke imo

Didn’t D-Mac get suspended not dropped? Also for those saying play him instead of Billings he is injured. Has a calf injury.

[saintkid]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Good post. He was poor today so if he is playing injured then what's the point?

This season for me has been a confirmation of what I always said. We failed to pick the right players with our early draft choices and we let go of a number of good players that have been doing really well at their new clubs. 2021 has become a weekly reminder of the stuff ups by the people our club employ. I will single out Petracca for now as he was always going to set the world on fire and I never bagged him unlike others here. He is as strong physically as he is talented in skill. Exactly what we wanted and needed. He is no Dusty but potentially capable of being the second best midfielder in the competition and he should have been in red, white and black. That one will haunt us forever and especially if he helps deliver the Demons their next premiership since 1964. In round 2 again Melbourne supporters at the ground were thanking us for giving them a superstar...hard to hear and it's been a regular occurrence this season.

As for Billings, even fit he is nothing to crow about as a player, both in leadership and consistent, game changing impact. His best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes are a testament to that and if anyone wants to criticize my opinion of him in his eighth season, just listen to what Riewoldt has said about Billings as a player and his career to date.

[Scollop]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Sadly Banger, that was not the point of the OP. The point of the OP was to only have a crack at Billings.

Yes, but also asking the usual questions regarding selection and just not interested in players like JB being carried by too few while he earns his match payment.

Why did DMac get dropped after 1 game where Dan made a few clangers, when he should have been given a run of games imo and an opportunity to hold down a spot. How many poor games did Butler have? How many did Hill have?

I know that JB won’t be dropped. The selection committee has shown their hand there with all there ‘credits in the bank’ crap. I just want Dunny to play another game before they pull the trigger and drop him because of his terrific effort last week and his ok game today. Wehave injuries to Gears and Wood, so there’s room to retain Luke imo

Didn’t D-Mac get suspended not dropped? Also for those saying play him instead of Billings he is injured. Has a calf injury.

I’m not saying play DMac instead of Billings

I just want players that work their bum off to be rewarded with consecutive games. Give them a fair run.

We dropped Lonie for this game and some people will probably want him back in the team and some will say that he doesn’t get a fair go, but guess how many games he’s played this year? 10. That’s right. Lones gets 10 while Luke has only played 3 and DMac I think has played 5

[cwrcyn]

Players who turn the ball over constantly, turning an advantage to a disadvantage are the ones who kill you. Dunstan's disposal today was fairly typical of him. He hit a couple of short targets, gave off two terrible handballs in the middle, which turned to ball over to the opposition, kicked long to the forward line to the disadvantage of his forwards about four times and then grubbed one under zero pressure directly to an opponent which a saw the ball go down the other end for a goal. That hurts. It's been the hallmark of his career to this point and the reason why he has been way down the pecking order in our midfield.

Billings, I suspect, is playing injured. However, his ball use doesn't burn his team mates, and his score involvements are generally quite high.

Give me 17 disposals where the ball is put to the advantage of team mates over 85% of the times versus 27 disposals where half of those are to the advantage of the opposition and among those are a few absolute howlers that directly or indirectly cost goals.

[Ghost Like]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Sadly Banger, that was not the point of the OP. The point of the OP was to only have a crack at Billings.

Yes, but also asking the usual questions regarding selection and just not interested in players like JB being carried by too few while he earns his match payment.

Why did DMac get dropped after 1 game where Dan made a few clangers, when he should have been given a run of games imo and an opportunity to hold down a spot. How many poor games did Butler have? How many did Hill have?

I know that JB won’t be dropped. The selection committee has shown their hand there with all there ‘credits in the bank’ crap. I just want Dunny to play another game before they pull the trigger and drop him because of his terrific effort last week and his ok game today. Wehave injuries to Gears and Wood, so there’s room to retain Luke imo

Fair enough I'm all for giving players opportunity. Do you want JB dropped? What is the purpose of linking both to the one game?

I believe DMac got dropped because his disposal and concentration was an issue, not his desire. Just as Ben Long deserved to be dropped due to his discipline, his concentration and his disposal.

Just because players have desire does not mean they are best 22. Let's find the balance, let's find the future, not the past.

[Scollop]

Players who turn the ball over constantly, turning an advantage to a disadvantage are the ones who kill you. Dunstan's disposal today was fairly typical of him. He hit a couple of short targets, gave off two terrible handballs in the middle, which turned to ball over to the opposition, kicked long to the forward line to the disadvantage of his forwards about four times and then grubbed one under zero pressure directly to an opponent which a saw the ball go down the other end for a goal. That hurts. It's been the hallmark of his career to this point and the reason why he has been way down the pecking order in our midfield.

Billings, I suspect, is playing injured. However, his ball use doesn't burn his team mates, and his score involvements are generally quite high.

Give me 17 disposals where the ball is put to the advantage of team mates over 85% of the times versus 27 disposals where half of those are to the advantage of the opposition and among those are a few absolute howlers that directly or indirectly cost goals.

You’re exaggerating

[Ghost Like]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Good post. He was poor today so if he is playing injured then what's the point?

This season for me has been a confirmation of what I always said. We failed to pick the right players with our early draft choices and we let go of a number of good players that have been doing really well at their new clubs. 2021 has become a weekly reminder of the stuff ups by the people our club employ. I will single out Petracca for now as he was always going to set the world on fire and I never bagged him unlike others here. He is as strong physically as he is talented in skill. Exactly what we wanted and needed. He is no Dusty but potentially capable of being the second best midfielder in the competition and he should have been in red, white and black. That one will haunt us forever and especially if he helps deliver the Demons their next premiership since 1964. In round 2 again Melbourne supporters at the ground were thanking us for giving them a superstar...hard to hear and it's been a regular occurrence this season.

As for Billings, even fit he is nothing to crow about as a player, both in leadership and consistent, game changing impact. His best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes are a testament to that and if anyone wants to criticize my opinion of him in his eighth season, just listen to what Riewoldt has said about Billings as a player and his career to date.

Can you send a link to Roo's criticism please?

I kind of expected you to jump on SK, a bit restrained but if you're happy with everyone else on the list, especially their 2021 efforts, let rip.

[Scollop]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Sadly Banger, that was not the point of the OP. The point of the OP was to only have a crack at Billings.

Yes, but also asking the usual questions regarding selection and just not interested in players like JB being carried by too few while he earns his match payment.

Why did DMac get dropped after 1 game where Dan made a few clangers, when he should have been given a run of games imo and an opportunity to hold down a spot. How many poor games did Butler have? How many did Hill have?

I know that JB won’t be dropped. The selection committee has shown their hand there with all there ‘credits in the bank’ crap. I just want Dunny to play another game before they pull the trigger and drop him because of his terrific effort last week and his ok game today. Wehave injuries to Gears and Wood, so there’s room to retain Luke imo

Fair enough I'm all for giving players opportunity. Do you want JB dropped? What is the purpose of linking both to the one game?

I believe DMac got dropped because his disposal and concentration was an issue, not his desire. Just as Ben Long deserved to be dropped due to his discipline, his concentration and his disposal.

Just because players have desire does not mean they are best 22. Let's find the balance, let's find the future, not the past.

So when JB receives a handball and he immediately looks to dish off and he gives it to someone that is 40cm from his right hip and that player experiences the heat and the tackle instead of JB, that’s ok? That’s a senior leader with good concentration is it?

All players make errors, but I’d rather a guy like Sloan who is suspect at times with his disposal AND gives 100% effort, rather than a player who falls over, can’t stick tackles and panics and dishes off too quickly instead of taking the hit. JB fails to hold on to the ball when he’s had no prior and doesn’t works hard enough to win contested footy at stoppages.

Yes, I know that is not his main role, and I know he is valued for his outside possessions and his precision kicking, but he needs to go up a level when he is not just receiving the footy. When it’s his turn ( and same with Hill) they need to learn to cop the bruises

[Ghost Like]

I'm quite sure he cops the bruises but feel free to fall into that trap. Is he the only player that will dish off before being caught with the ball. Interesting that you picked Sloan, another our recruiters missed but I'll acknowledge that is hindsight, many wouldn't when it comes to JB.

Such a pity we did not keep Acres, a player with good disposal and football intelligence, who draws and wears tackles. Such a pity we gave him to Freo and not Dunstan. Any thoughts on why they didn't want Dunstan?

[Crossy66]

JB was no good today.
Dunstan worked hard but some truly horrible turn overs.

We have Steele, Crouch and Ross as slow hard ball units and Bytel in the wings.

How many fast skilled outside players do we have?

Gresham and Jones injured

Got to keep Billings, Bytel in for Dunstan, leave Byrnes in the team.

Billings 63% DE, Byrnes 54% DE, Bytel runs one way and doesn't yet get enough of it. Dunstan holds his spot for mine.

[bangaulegend]

BJ has skill just needs to get more of the ball because if you have the ball in the hands of the best ball users you have a better chance of winning IMO

[saintkid]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Good post. He was poor today so if he is playing injured then what's the point?

This season for me has been a confirmation of what I always said. We failed to pick the right players with our early draft choices and we let go of a number of good players that have been doing really well at their new clubs. 2021 has become a weekly reminder of the stuff ups by the people our club employ. I will single out Petracca for now as he was always going to set the world on fire and I never bagged him unlike others here. He is as strong physically as he is talented in skill. Exactly what we wanted and needed. He is no Dusty but potentially capable of being the second best midfielder in the competition and he should have been in red, white and black. That one will haunt us forever and especially if he helps deliver the Demons their next premiership since 1964. In round 2 again Melbourne supporters at the ground were thanking us for giving them a superstar...hard to hear and it's been a regular occurrence this season.

As for Billings, even fit he is nothing to crow about as a player, both in leadership and consistent, game changing impact. His best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes are a testament to that and if anyone wants to criticize my opinion of him in his eighth season, just listen to what Riewoldt has said about Billings as a player and his career to date.

Can you send a link to Roo's criticism please?

I kind of expected you to jump on SK, a bit restrained but if you're happy with everyone else on the list, especially their 2021 efforts, let rip.

Hi there Ghost Like, I've been quite measured about my thoughts on Billings this year and that's because the problem areas in our club go way deeper than just commenting on a few of our so called leaders or senior players. So thank you for expecting me to jump on here regarding JB.

Riewoldt last year on Fox Footy and I'm pretty sure it was 'On the Couch' spoke about Billings being possible trade bait as he hasn't taken his game at the next level after a number of years at the club. Search through the shows and you will watch/hear for yourself.

As I said before, there are posters here that I like reading their thoughts but some go awfully quiet and take a back seat when it comes to Billings' bad games. He should be a leader on the ground and a playmaker inspiring his younger teammates. However, he often does not stand up when needed. I will reiterate...look at his best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes in his career to date. If the club can get value for him at year's end, I also believe he should be traded. Our list is not going anywhere fast. Watching Melbourne on Friday night was another reminder of our club's errors and list mismanagement.

[Ghost Like]

Has anyone else figured out why Longmire let Hill off the chain?

[saintkid]

He said the following on SEN radio at the end of 2020 also:

Riewoldt: "Jack Billings is a player that's got a lot of currency, Seb Ross has got a lot of currency - he's won two best and fairests over the past few years.

"If they're in the market for that (quality) mid, you've got to give something up to get something. I think clubs will think Billings is gettable.

"I wouldn't do the Billings one because his upside is too big but if you get the right price for him or a Seb Ross then I would be prepared to do the deal."

[Ghost Like]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Good post. He was poor today so if he is playing injured then what's the point?

This season for me has been a confirmation of what I always said. We failed to pick the right players with our early draft choices and we let go of a number of good players that have been doing really well at their new clubs. 2021 has become a weekly reminder of the stuff ups by the people our club employ. I will single out Petracca for now as he was always going to set the world on fire and I never bagged him unlike others here. He is as strong physically as he is talented in skill. Exactly what we wanted and needed. He is no Dusty but potentially capable of being the second best midfielder in the competition and he should have been in red, white and black. That one will haunt us forever and especially if he helps deliver the Demons their next premiership since 1964. In round 2 again Melbourne supporters at the ground were thanking us for giving them a superstar...hard to hear and it's been a regular occurrence this season.

As for Billings, even fit he is nothing to crow about as a player, both in leadership and consistent, game changing impact. His best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes are a testament to that and if anyone wants to criticize my opinion of him in his eighth season, just listen to what Riewoldt has said about Billings as a player and his career to date.

Can you send a link to Roo's criticism please?

I kind of expected you to jump on SK, a bit restrained but if you're happy with everyone else on the list, especially their 2021 efforts, let rip.

Hi there Ghost Like, I've been quite measured about my thoughts on Billings this year and that's because the problem areas in our club go way deeper than just commenting on a few of our so called leaders or senior players. So thank you for expecting me to jump on here regarding JB.

Riewoldt last year on Fox Footy and I'm pretty sure it was 'On the Couch' spoke about Billings being possible trade bait as he hasn't taken his game at the next level after a number of years at the club. Search through the shows and you will watch/hear for yourself.

As I said before, there are posters here that I like reading their thoughts but some go awfully quiet and take a back seat when it comes to Billings' bad games. He should be a leader on the ground and a playmaker inspiring his younger teammates. However, he often does not stand up when needed. I will reiterate...look at his best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes in his career to date. If the club can get value for him at year's end, I also believe he should be traded. Our list is not going anywhere fast. Watching Melbourne on Friday night was another reminder of our club's errors and list mismanagement.

Cheers SK for a measured response, I respect that. You speak of Riewoldt's belief about JB but apparently that was last year, a year we made the finals and he finished 11th in the oh so important B&F. Yet this was no referred to last year so I'm not trawling through 20+ episodes to find it.

That said, if Brownlow votes are the measure then many more should be cast aside. Quite disturbing when an umpire's opinion is the measure of a player's worth to a club.

Again, those that do not rate JB wait for a bad game. Jack apologises he's taken so long to play one this year.

In my opinion there are only two players currently inspiring players and they are Captain Jack & Paddy. Do what you like with the rest but seriously if JB is the first you cut, god help us.

[B.M]

It’s interesting

Prepared to trade Ross but not Billings

Question
Which player has been better in their careers thus far?

[B.M]

I don’t think you trade either, and try to hold on to the better players

[saintkid]

Zac Jones is a huge loss, doesn't get enough praise on here for some reason.
With Gresham is an inside/ outside player.
Otherwise we have either very inside or very outside.

To get back to the OP, if Billings is genuinely carrying an injury...then rest him, Bytel, D Mac or Long come back in, we are out of finals contention barring a miracle.

Good post. He was poor today so if he is playing injured then what's the point?

This season for me has been a confirmation of what I always said. We failed to pick the right players with our early draft choices and we let go of a number of good players that have been doing really well at their new clubs. 2021 has become a weekly reminder of the stuff ups by the people our club employ. I will single out Petracca for now as he was always going to set the world on fire and I never bagged him unlike others here. He is as strong physically as he is talented in skill. Exactly what we wanted and needed. He is no Dusty but potentially capable of being the second best midfielder in the competition and he should have been in red, white and black. That one will haunt us forever and especially if he helps deliver the Demons their next premiership since 1964. In round 2 again Melbourne supporters at the ground were thanking us for giving them a superstar...hard to hear and it's been a regular occurrence this season.

As for Billings, even fit he is nothing to crow about as a player, both in leadership and consistent, game changing impact. His best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes are a testament to that and if anyone wants to criticize my opinion of him in his eighth season, just listen to what Riewoldt has said about Billings as a player and his career to date.

Can you send a link to Roo's criticism please?

I kind of expected you to jump on SK, a bit restrained but if you're happy with everyone else on the list, especially their 2021 efforts, let rip.

Hi there Ghost Like, I've been quite measured about my thoughts on Billings this year and that's because the problem areas in our club go way deeper than just commenting on a few of our so called leaders or senior players. So thank you for expecting me to jump on here regarding JB.

Riewoldt last year on Fox Footy and I'm pretty sure it was 'On the Couch' spoke about Billings being possible trade bait as he hasn't taken his game at the next level after a number of years at the club. Search through the shows and you will watch/hear for yourself.

As I said before, there are posters here that I like reading their thoughts but some go awfully quiet and take a back seat when it comes to Billings' bad games. He should be a leader on the ground and a playmaker inspiring his younger teammates. However, he often does not stand up when needed. I will reiterate...look at his best and fairest finishes and Brownlow votes in his career to date. If the club can get value for him at year's end, I also believe he should be traded. Our list is not going anywhere fast. Watching Melbourne on Friday night was another reminder of our club's errors and list mismanagement.

Cheers SK for a measured response, I respect that. You speak of Riewoldt's belief about JB but apparently that was last year, a year we made the finals and he finished 11th in the oh so important B&F. Yet this was no referred to last year so I'm not trawling through 20+ episodes to find it.

That said, if Brownlow votes are the measure then many more should be cast aside. Quite disturbing when an umpire's opinion is the measure of a player's worth to a club.

Again, those that do not rate JB wait for a bad game. Jack apologises he's taken so long to play one this year.

In my opinion there are only two players currently inspiring players and they are Captain Jack & Paddy. Do what you like with the rest but seriously if JB is the first you cut, god help us.

I would only add a fit Marshall to your two there Ghost Like.

True to a degree with the Brownlow...it's the club best and fairest that is making my point about JB. The Brownlow is an added perspective but a justified one based on the club award performance to date.

If he has decent trade value as Riewoldt put it I would trade him because he wouldn't be a big loss going forward with his game style/consistency. However, I would not part with JB if it was not a worthwhile exchange like some other decisions we have made of late. As for his contract, if another club wants to offer him a better contract, well I would have no hesitation in him leaving as he's not worth the money he's being paid, as isn't Hill and of course , the one everyone laughs at us about in Hannebery.

[Ghost Like]

OK SaintKid, put a price on his head.

[saintkid]

It’s interesting

Prepared to trade Ross but not Billings

Question
Which player has been better in their careers thus far?

Riewoldt is clever and measured. What he says publicly is not necessarily what he would think privately. When you hear him talk in a guarded way about certain players on our current list, it's not too hard to think and work out that maybe his true feelings are a little more harsh that what he's prepared to say out in the open.

[saintkid]

OK SaintKid, put a price on his head.

I don't think we will get a a worthwhile trade for him but isn't he a free agent at the end of 2021?
If he takes a higher offer elsewhere, well good on him and why not look after himself (others have done so in the past and put themselves before the club) but he's been fortunate to command the dollars he's received to date, when you lay out his on-field playing output in one hand and his remuneration in the other. If St.Kilda were to give him another lucrative contract to keep him, they would be silly in my opinion.

[Ghost Like]

OK SaintKid, put a price on his head.

I don't think we will get a a worthwhile trade for him but isn't he a free agent at the end of 2021?
If he takes a higher offer elsewhere, well good on him and why not look after himself (others have done so in the past and put themselves before the club) but he's been fortunate to command the dollars he's received to date, when you lay out his on-field playing output in one hand and his remuneration in the other. If St.Kilda were to give him another lucrative contract to keep him, they would be silly in my opinion.

OK SK let's go with your belief. He's not worth anything. Is he worth more than our 23rd player? He's got the dollars because no one else is worth more. What does that say about our list?