Club went all in on the money ball approach

[terry smith rules]

And now we are stuffed for years, effectively we are now behind every club except maybe the Hawks

Yes the money ball approach worked for a season (just like the film/book), but at some point we needed to get youth in again to continue the growth

And we didn’t we went back to the well with , well you know who

I think all those responsible for recruiting these aging hacks (this years lot) should be walked on Monday, at best no say in any future list management

We now have a list of aging/injured players with a speck of youth (who for the most part are still huge question marks)

And if the club is active in the mid season draft and we pick up anyone older than 24, we should march on Linton St

We have absolutely no currency to even think about Ben King , we need every draft pick we can lay our hands on

Fqf

[The_Dud]

The moneyball approach is about getting value for money. The Hannerbry and Hill trades/wages are very much against that philosophy.

Also we don’t need Ben King, we need gun mids!

[Wayne42]

The moneyball approach is about getting value for money. The Hannerbry and Hill trades/wages are very much against that philosophy.

Also we don’t need Ben King, we need gun mids!

If Ben King has any pride he should tell the saints to F*** off and come back only when they know what they are doing and can prove it with
decent onfield performances.

[saynta]

Josh Green the younger.brother.of GWS rising star, would.be my.first pick

[bigcarl]

I was sucked in by our success last year, so the club had my blessing to give us more of the same. But this season - particularly the embarrassing and humiliating drubbings - has delivered a saddening reality check.

The most exciting time for me as a Saints supporter was watching that group of young players come through in 2003-2004. I’d love to see that sort of thing happen again, so, yes, we need to invest in youth and the draft even if it means going backwards for a while.

Free agency has changed the equation a bit, of course, but finding and developing really good young players should be the overwhelming priority.

[Impatient Sainter]

I think Gallagher & Lethlean fell in love with the money ball idea after a couple of sucesses in Butler etc. They thought topping up our list with dead wood last year would work again and as a result left the list completely exposed with 4 list spots not filled.

The Hind decision has well and trully undone any good work they did the previous year, plus delisting Phillips & Parker and not replacing them was also a mistake IMO.

The Hannebrey & Hill trades have proven complete disasters and continue to embarrass the club. Hill plays the occasional reasonable game but after what he cost at trade and his salary he is a major fail. Hannebrey was a broken down crock at Sydney, why we continually believe we can fix these players defies all logic. Once again St Kilda becomes the dumping ground for other clubs salary cap and injury riddled players.

[Impatient Sainter]

Hawthorn have heaps of quality kids playing VFL Reeves, Jeka, Morris, Saunders, Nash & Downie. Apart from Connolly we have absolutely zero.

[Devilhead]

Free agency has changed the equation a bit, of course, but finding and developing really good young players should be the overwhelming priority.

Free Agency ain't the problem as you don't have to lose high end draft picks to get a decent player

Its trading away high picks to get supposedly great players who then don't perform at the expense of maybe bringing in highly rated top ten youngsters

[Devilhead]

Josh Green the younger.brother.of GWS rising star, would.be my.first pick

Isn't he eligible for GWS academy?

Don't think he has nominated for the Mid season draft so GWS can get him in the EOS draft

[saynta]

And now we are stuffed for years, effectively we are now behind every club except maybe the Hawks

Yes the money ball approach worked for a season (just like the film/book), but at some point we needed to get youth in again to continue the growth

And we didn’t we went back to the well with , well you know who

I think all those responsible for recruiting these aging hacks (this years lot) should be walked on Monday, at best no say in any future list management

We now have a list of aging/injured players with a speck of youth (who for the most part are still huge question marks)

And if the club is active in the mid season draft and we pick up anyone older than 24, we should march on Linton St

We have absolutely no currency to even think about Ben King , we need every draft pick we can lay our hands on

Fqf

Looks like the FF has been reading your posts and stealing from them

The Tackle: Has heartless Saints’ recruiting failed?

St Kilda was shamed by the Western Bulldogs. It raises serious questions about whether the Saints' moneyball recruiting tactics are a bust, writes Mark Robinson.

"1. RECYCLED SAINTS LACK HEART

You can be beaten by the Western Bulldogs, but you can’t be shamed like that.

No, not like that.

Coach Brett Ratten said in the post-match of the 111-point thumping football was played above the shoulders, which is him politely saying his team was/is mentally weak.

Everyone else is thinking it, so there’s no reason for Ratten to ignore it. He isn’t.

It makes you wonder if their moneyball approach and the recruiting of recycled players has worked. The group includes Dougal Howard, Brad Hill, Zak Jones, Jack Higgins, Paddy Ryder, Brad Crouch, Dan Hannebery, Dan Butler and this year James Frawley.
Recycled Saints, like Bradley Hill, have failed to deliver. Picture: AFL Photos/Getty Images
Recycled Saints, like Bradley Hill, have failed to deliver. Picture: AFL Photos/Getty Images

Seven of those players played on Saturday night. The Saints should not be so flaky. They were the third-oldest side this round, which is an indictment on their performance.

The new rules were supposed to have helped improve the Saints — fast, flowing, rebound footy — but it would appear too often they crumble at the first show of defiance from their opposition.

Axing players might be part of the solution, but the problem might remain prevalent.

That is, they want the game on their terms and roll over when it isn’t. At the moment, they are a heartless team.
Close, but no cigar, as mistakes cost the Pies."

[spert]

Just a total c*ck-up in the Saints history of c*ck-ups. Right now the club is weak above the shoulders from the top of the club down.

[samoht]

I agree with the directly above post.

You'd think we'd have learned something from that recycled player experiment under Lyon.

We need (and have needed for years) quality, young midfielders - let's see what and who we'll go after instead.
Our recruiters do not have a clue.

We were neck and neck with teams that have managed to sustain their success and have left us in their wake - and the difference IS NOT THE COACH - it's the recruiting.

[iwantmeseats]

The recruiting is absolutely been f****** deplorable.
And actual jobs should be lost. And fast. Not acceptable.

MILLIONS on hacks and has beens

Bunch of f****** muppets running this s*** show.

[older saint]

As pointed out Money ball involves recruiting under valued players who are exceptional at their role. It is generally a gamble but the expense is not as high - e.g Butler was a money ball type selection, as was Wilkie .

The angst seems to be with the higher priced recruits. Hill is becoming a whipping boy here. He was often inconsistant when at Freo - starring in wins and invisible in losses. This should have been known before he was recruited and the flip flop on him is laughable - drop him after Ess and Richmond games, hes back what a gun after WC and Haw games.

Crouch so far has done ok. Jones has been good and i think so to has Higgins and would love to see bursts in the middle.

Hannebrey terrible decision and the logic of this wil never be understood. Completely sucked in and like Freeman an over reliance on our medical advice being so far infront of everyone else.

Carlilse is cooked and off books at years end, and really didnt cost too much as we really didnt have anything else to spend on at that time.
Ryder worked and didnt cost much
Frawley cost a packet of chips and more likely to contribute than a draft pick in the 70's or 80s

For 10 years plus there has been an inability to develop bar a few exceptions so either the coaches in this role arent good enough or the talent they are trying to develop isnt good enough (can't polish a turd).

3 weeks ago i did ladder predictor and it came out at 10-11 wins and around 10th , nothing has changed there except the margins, so really every decision now should be based around " can this player contribute to our next finals series ( i wont say premierhsip as I am resigned to never seeing that at age 49).

[evertonfc]

Yes the money ball approach worked for a season (just like the film/book), but at some point we needed to get youth in again to continue the growth

Sorry - but what part of what we did was the Moneyball approach?

The fundamental misunderstanding of sabermetrics - labelling any kind trade week activity as 'Moneyball' - doesn't seem to reflect our decision-making in terms of list management.

I'd suggest most of what we did fell last year into the top up strategy (McKernan, Wood, Frawley), aided by a mid-term addition (Crouch) and a long-term addition (Higgins).

I'm not a full believer in sabermetrics, but I respect its role in terms of providing data that in aspirational in its objectivity.

The problem with AFL is that it lacks qualitative data, is overwhelmed by quantitative data, and nobody can really agree what constitutes the holy grail of individual data, and how it is measured, and for what purpose. You almost need every disposal to be subjectively measured on an effectiveness scale by someone trained in objective measurements (complicated, I know). That level of coding could take weeks. It certainly can't be done on matchday by a human. I guess it could be done if you employed an army of analysts to break the game down but that feels about a decade away.

One thing I will admit seems to be valuable is the pressure index; and that's a good one, because it relies on a fairly binary outcome (tackling - yes/no, effective/ineffective) and be used to give a rough gauge of how intensity a team is putting into the defensive side of the game.

Darren O'Shaughnessy can fill you in more. He may also login to tell us a different story from what I have written above, which would also be useful.

[asiu]

51 minutes in

Darren O'Shaughnessy

https://player.captivate.fm/episode/30c ... 01b2261a13