Hickey, Bruce and Hind

[B.M]

At that stage, Longer was clearly a better ruckman at stoppage.

Average footballer though

[magnifisaint]

They're all average.

[skeptic]

I think few would argue that for the most part, Longer was better at the tap outs.

The problem is that that’s all Longer could do.

Richo seemed to really value that but IMO for all the criticism he copped, GT was on point on that one: a ruck that was just competitive at taps and contributes nothing else (and no blocks aren’t enough) is worthless.
Generally not regarded as one of the game’s most brilliant minds... GT figured that out like 18 years ago

[SaintPav]

I think few would argue that for the most part, Longer was better at the tap outs.

The problem is that that’s all Longer could do.

Richo seemed to really value that but IMO for all the criticism he copped, GT was on point on that one: a ruck that was just competitive at taps and contributes nothing else (and no blocks aren’t enough) is worthless.
Generally not regarded as one of the game’s most brilliant minds... GT figured that out like 18 years ago

What explains Noble then?

I always thought that Grant was spinning the value of the position (in response to a media question) because we didn't have a very good one. I think they call that a Sun Tzu maneuver.

Also, we were so close to getting Cox, weren't we? Puts to bed the theory that he didn't value quality ruckman.

and how's this for irony:

We are about to get Cox but West Coast says no deal after Gardner does his knee. May have cost us a flag or 2. A few years later, Gradner is recruited to the club and gets injured in a Grand Final!

Only St Kilda.

[skeptic]

I think few would argue that for the most part, Longer was better at the tap outs.

The problem is that that’s all Longer could do.

Richo seemed to really value that but IMO for all the criticism he copped, GT was on point on that one: a ruck that was just competitive at taps and contributes nothing else (and no blocks aren’t enough) is worthless.
Generally not regarded as one of the game’s most brilliant minds... GT figured that out like 18 years ago

What explains Noble then?

I always thought that Grant was spinning the value of the position (in response to a media question) because we didn't have a very good one. I think they call that a Sun Tzu maneuver.

Also, we were so close to getting Cox, weren't we? Puts to bed the theory that he didn't value quality ruckman.

and how's this for irony:

We are about to get Cox but West Coast says no deal after Gardner does his knee. May have cost us a flag or 2. A few years later, Gradner is recruited to the club and gets injured in a Grand Final!

Only St Kilda.

Indeed.

I think Trent Knobel was recruited as a back up originally and they thought he had a bit of potential to improve. IIRC correctly he towelled you Spider one day though Everite was a bit crook on the day.

Then all of a sudden Trent was the only ruck in the list (once Brooks went down). I noted that they didn’t try too hard to keep him after 04 when he pushed for a big pay rise

The story about Cox has been out for a while and just breaks the heart. Definitely cost us flags

[samuraisaint]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/613096/slow ... -past-pies

Read this before we scapegoat players. How handy would Hickey be for us over the next month?

[CURLY]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/613096/slow ... -past-pies

Read this before we scapegoat players. How handy would Hickey be for us over the next month?

What do we do with him the rest of the time?

[samuraisaint]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/613096/slow ... -past-pies

Read this before we scapegoat players. How handy would Hickey be for us over the next month?

What do we do with him the rest of the time?

well. he'd be in our best 22 wouldn;t he?

[takeaway]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/613096/slow ... -past-pies

Read this before we scapegoat players. How handy would Hickey be for us over the next month?

What do we do with him the rest of the time?

well. he'd be in our best 22 wouldn;t he?

Yep, he'd be No.3 ruck at St Kilda. In 22 with Marshall injured. Better than Hunter/Alabaskis. What's your point?

[samuraisaint]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/613096/slow ... -past-pies

Read this before we scapegoat players. How handy would Hickey be for us over the next month?

What do we do with him the rest of the time?

well. he'd be in our best 22 wouldn;t he?

Yep, he'd be No.3 ruck at St Kilda. In 22 with Marshall injured. Better than Hunter/Alabaskis. What's your point?

No, he'd be the Number 1 or 2 ruckman for us - and he'd be in our best 22 regardless of our injuries. He was best on ground for the Swans yesterday.
I am just a mug punter who follows the Saints, so have no knowledge about pro sports, or even amateur sports tbh, but my point is that I think our development at our club (and as members it is our club) needs to get better.

We clear players to other teams who are then managed better. I don't see it as always being recruitment but rather about developing the players we have.

We would have won Friday night with Hickey there, and with Bruce in the side. We were clearly the better team for much of the night. So why were they traded out? It couldn't have been about money because we have paid plenty to bring others to the club.

There seems to be some conjecture about whether we should be sending RoMa off to have surgery according to the media reports. Apart from him missing 4-6 games, the surgery is a bit of a risk. So why are we doing it?

I'm questioning how we build the capacity of the players we currently have.

Also; as an aside, I would play Longy up forward, and I would not be playing him as a sub either. A sub is supposed to give you fresh legs if you get an injury during a match.

I want St Kilda to be ahead of the curve, not following the herd.

Evidence of our ability to develop players will be on display Saturday night against the 'Dogs. We have a good recent record against them - in direct contrast with our records against Geelong, Port Adelaide, and Essendon - so we should be able to clearly see how we cover our injuries. Do we make the hard decision to play Alabakis for the block of matches RoMa is out? He's been on the list a while. Why not? He's a ruckman after all? 4-6 matches will give the club a chance to see how he goes against the top shelf.

The bottom line is, if we can't cover our injuries against a side we compete well against, then it really is a question of our depth. BUT, if we beat the 'Dogs, then last season is an accurate indicator of our trajectory up the ladder.

[takeaway]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/613096/slow ... -past-pies

Read this before we scapegoat players. How handy would Hickey be for us over the next month?

What do we do with him the rest of the time?

well. he'd be in our best 22 wouldn;t he?

Yep, he'd be No.3 ruck at St Kilda. In 22 with Marshall injured. Better than Hunter/Alabaskis. What's your point?

No, he'd be the Number 1 or 2 ruckman for us - and he'd be in our best 22 regardless of our injuries. He was best on ground for the Swans yesterday.
I am just a mug punter who follows the Saints, so have no knowledge about pro sports, or even amateur sports tbh, but my point is that I think our development at our club (and as members it is our club) needs to get better.

We clear players to other teams who are then managed better. I don't see it as always being recruitment but rather about developing the players we have.

We would have won Friday night with Hickey there, and with Bruce in the side. We were clearly the better team for much of the night. So why were they traded out? It couldn't have been about money because we have paid plenty to bring others to the club.

There seems to be some conjecture about whether we should be sending RoMa off to have surgery according to the media reports. Apart from him missing 4-6 games, the surgery is a bit of a risk. So why are we doing it?

I'm questioning how we build the capacity of the players we currently have.

Also; as an aside, I would play Longy up forward, and I would not be playing him as a sub either. A sub is supposed to give you fresh legs if you get an injury during a match.

I want St Kilda to be ahead of the curve, not following the herd.

Evidence of our ability to develop players will be on display Saturday night against the 'Dogs. We have a good recent record against them - in direct contrast with our records against Geelong, Port Adelaide, and Essendon - so we should be able to clearly see how we cover our injuries. Do we make the hard decision to play Alabakis for the block of matches RoMa is out? He's been on the list a while. Why not? He's a ruckman after all? 4-6 matches will give the club a chance to see how he goes against the top shelf.

The bottom line is, if we can't cover our injuries against a side we compete well against, then it really is a question of our depth. BUT, if we beat the 'Dogs, then last season is an accurate indicator of our trajectory up the ladder.

You'd prefer Hickey over Ryder and/or Marshall? Not for me. Long up forward? No thanks.

We would have won Friday night if we had kicked reasonably straight.

I totally disagree with your comments, not sure what curve you are planning to put the Saints ahead on.

[samuraisaint]

Fair enough, that's your opinion. I am just musing about some of the players we have traded out and questioned the wisdom of it. Some of those players are excellent talents and exactly the type of player we do need. I mean we really needed a Bruce in the side Friday night to take some of the pressure off our forwards. Geelong wouldn't have been able to contain him, for example.

RE: Curve - I meant that I would like St Kilda to be ahead of the curve by being innovative (think Pagan's paddock/Clarko's cage/Lyon's Frontal pressue) rather than reacting to what others are doing. St Kilda often play to the script (i.e. our capitulation to Essendon in Round 3) and rarely surprise the oppostion/footy world. Last year we did show a bit of that innovation, and our final win was a minor upset and that does give me hope for 2021.

I think if our player development is sound, we'll bounce back and beat the 'Dogs on Saturday night, as we will have been developing the depth in our reserves which can adequately compensate the half dozen or so injuries that we have, and that when players return from injury/reserves come into the side, they can combine with the team competently. Our endeavor on Friday night was really good and we can build on that.

If we fail to turn up on Saturday night though, due to RoMa's injury, then that is a different story and speaks to the club's ability to develop the capacity of the players we have on the list.
EDIT: we have the second least injuries in the league - the Dogs have close to the most! No excuses boys!

Sure I probably need to let this go, but I don't want us to waste this year. There are still thirteen matches to go.
If we win Saturday night rest assured I will not be adding any posts to this topic anymore.

[chook23]

Hind had a another very very good game today

[Yorkeys]

and Acres?

[MC Gusto]

Of the 3 Hind is the f-up we made
Bruce we got reasonable return on. What did that pick between us? Dougie? I can’t quite remember but we got a reasonable return
Hickey similar and you got to remember he was a witches hat at west coast. Great for the guy he’s found form with the swans - I always liked him but really should be considered the eagles loss not ours
Hind is smashing it and is exactly what we need. Bombers have been repaid on Milne…we have lost out on him big time

[Viscount Jeremiah]

f****** love to ask Ratten why we never gave Hind a go at HBF

31 touches last night averaging 26 for the year and beating his opponent most weeks

[Joffa Burns]

Of the 3 Hind is the f-up we made
Bruce we got reasonable return on. What did that pick between us? Dougie? I can’t quite remember but we got a reasonable return
Hickey similar and you got to remember he was a witches hat at west coast. Great for the guy he’s found form with the swans - I always liked him but really should be considered the eagles loss not ours
Hind is smashing it and is exactly what we need. Bombers have been repaid on Milne…we have lost out on him big time

Bruce pick got Jones with some later swaps as well.
Hickey pick got Hannebery with a shuffle.

To be fair I thought Hind was average at Saints but he is playing bloody good football at the moment.
Defending and beating his man and providing run and good foot skills off half back.

Was just about BOG this week from what I saw (on TV) of that match.

[shanegrambeau]

Mathew Lloyd said of Hind today,

"As good as Adam Saad, on half the money. Would easily be in the top 5 B & F at Essendon this year."

Woah...don't it make ya feel good?

Especially with Butler, Lonie and Higgins spinning their wheels.

Lucky Newnes was dropped for yesterday's game.

...and i might add, our woes with Long and across half-back in general.

[Scollop]

Mathew Lloyd said of Hind today,

"As good as Adam Saad, on half the money. Would easily be in the top 5 B & F at Essendon this year."

Woah...don't it make ya feel good?

Especially with Butler, Lonie and Higgins spinning their wheels.

Lucky Newnes was dropped for yesterday's game.

...and i might add, our woes with Long and across half-back in general.

I’m watching AFL 360

Slobbo must have heard Matthew earlier today because he just about repeated everything that Lloydy said and he added that...

Nick Hind is a close second to being the recruit of the year. He said that at this stage it would probably be Tom Hickey

[bigred]

Always thought Hickey had the most upside.
Was the better footballer over Billy. Much better.

It was a curious decision to move him on over Longer.
Perhaps the penny finally dropped for him at Sydney, or perhaps the environment just suits him.
Who knows? A couple of clubs have moved him on, perhaps he had issues with his prep or work rate.

[SaintPav]

I thought we had enough HBF.

[samuraisaint]

Mathew Lloyd said of Hind today,

"As good as Adam Saad, on half the money. Would easily be in the top 5 B & F at Essendon this year."

Woah...don't it make ya feel good?

Especially with Butler, Lonie and Higgins spinning their wheels.

Lucky Newnes was dropped for yesterday's game.

...and i might add, our woes with Long and across half-back in general.

I’m watching AFL 360

Slobbo must have heard Matthew earlier today because he just about repeated everything that Lloydy said and he added that...

Nick Hind is a close second to being the recruit of the year. He said that at this stage it would probably be Tom Hickey

I knew this was going to be the case in Round 3 -

"How terrible is wisdom when it brings no fortune to the wise"

Robert De Niro as El Diablo in Angel Heart (1987).

[Yorkeys]

Who would have thought Coffield and Long would be so bad this year, they - our brains trust - just thought Hind was surplus to requirements given also that DMac was contracted and Jimmy the W was coming back. Essendon seem to have more bigger players than us (who doesn't) so Hind gets more protection blocking for his runs. Good coaching, shrewd recruitment.

If we needed another painful reminder of ARs limitations as a coach see T. Hickey's current form, and some good games for WCE it should be noted, and how J. Bruce has developed. Seriously wonder about our CEO's understanding of football - remember he renewed AR. Expensive, but its other peoples money and emotions.

Possible lesson: if another club wants one of our players and the recruiting team think it is a good deal take it, stop and get expert outside advice about what you are missing, what's the catch.

[Ghost Like]

Who would have thought Coffield and Long would be so bad this year, they - our brains trust - just thought Hind was surplus to requirements given also that DMac was contracted and Jimmy the W was coming back. Essendon seem to have more bigger players than us (who doesn't) so Hind gets more protection blocking for his runs. Good coaching, shrewd recruitment.

If we needed another painful reminder of ARs limitations as a coach see T. Hickey's current form, and some good games for WCE it should be noted, and how J. Bruce has developed. Seriously wonder about our CEO's understanding of football - remember he renewed AR. Expensive, but its other peoples money and emotions.

Possible lesson: if another club wants one of our players and the recruiting team think it is a good deal take it, stop and get expert outside advice about what you are missing, what's the catch.

All well said Yorkeys & great paragraphing.

I'm not sure we need to be beating ourselves up over these three. There's a very good reason this thread wasn't created last season, they were all terrible & one was still playing for us, albeit in the wrong position.

Hickey & Bruce have finally pulled their digits out. It's amazing what a person on a last chance can achieve, rather than having it easy with wind being blown up their clackers.

I'm also just as confident if Marshall, Ryder and Paton had been available all season...no one would really be giving a fat rat's.

What's interesting about Coffield is that he's a required and definite best 22. I think it's good Ratts won't tolerate average form from him. A bit different with what has been tolerated with in the past. Can only be good in the long run.

[samuraisaint]

It's called depth, and good sides have it.

We shouldn't be on the ropes because of half a dozen injuries.