Joyce

[BadRossco]

Watched most of the sandy game and surely Highmore or even Clavorino would be a better option than Joyce. Both have a football background unlike Joyce

[B.M]

Why did Joyce do a 4m kick?

[Munga]

His kick to Byrnes was elite vision and execution.

[Impatient Sainter]

Why did Joyce do a 4m kick?

Thats the gaelic football background, he needs to get out of his game.

[Gershwin]

Why did Joyce do a 4m kick?

Thats the gaelic football background, he needs to get out of his game.

His background is hurling not Gaelic football.

[magnifisaint]

Why did Joyce do a 4m kick?

Thats the gaelic football background, he needs to get out of his game.

His background is hurling not Gaelic football.

Correct!

[skeptic]

I just watched the first half and paid particular attention to Joyce every time he got near the ball.

The time stamps are the count up time on the AFL 1/4 by 1/4 replay

2min - ball kicked to a Hawks forward but too high for him and Joyce has an easy spoil

12min - Hawks kick towards CHF, Joyce’s opponent is well free of him and is primed for an easy mark but the kick gets intercepted by a Saint that drops back and picks it off

16min - Hawks kick inside F50 and Joyce’s opponent breaks well free to take an uncontested mark by the ball slips through his fingers

18min - Joyce gets to the front of a marking contest and does a solid spoil

26min - the ball is kicked forward by Hawks to a 2v2. Joyce is the man in front and actually gives up position to put a block on the opponent that would be the second man up and relies on Howard to make ground to go for the spoil.
Did not love that play at all... seems like he could have been pinged for a block but more so, didn’t love him giving up his spot

28min - not sure if this was him but he runs to a marking contest, side steps the contest and moves to the side to wait for a pass and leaves his team mates to spoil

2nd quarter

3min - Hawthorn’s first goal - is side to side with his opponent in the prime spot, goes for the spoil and completely misses the ball leading to a mark out the back.

5min - Hawks bomb forward - straight to him, gets his hands on the ball but is spoiled... doesn’t do much to protect the space

14min mark - the balls kicked to a contest to Joyce’s left... he’s primed to be third man up but his opponent bumps into his left and he falls over and Kosi takes a contested mark

18min - gets the ball handed to him deep in defence and does a nice big kick to a contest up the ground -

20min - Hawks kick long forward, Joyce is in the contest and gets his hands on the ball but doesn’t mark

Couple of observations so far...

He really doesn’t look that comfortable spoiling and on a few occasions looked to stay down even though he had the better position

Is very one effort at the contest e.g. goes up for a spoil and stops or goes for a block/bump and stops

At this mome to, plays strictly defensively... doesn’t cover as much space or get to as many contests as Howard or Wilkes - have to imagine that’s an instruction from the coach. Not a big contested mark either

He does seem fairly well composed at ground level and the few touches he had in that half were decent

He’s gets a lot more ball in the second half according to the stats so am keen to check that out hopefully tomorrow. Also noted he got poked in the eye and played through and still went up for contests shortly after so that’s decent... but looks very green to me as a defender so far

[Munga]

I just watched the first half and paid particular attention to Joyce every time he got near the ball.

The time stamps are the count up time on the AFL 1/4 by 1/4 replay

2min - ball kicked to a Hawks forward but too high for him and Joyce has an easy spoil

12min - Hawks kick towards CHF, Joyce’s opponent is well free of him and is primed for an easy mark but the kick gets intercepted by a Saint that drops back and picks it off

16min - Hawks kick inside F50 and Joyce’s opponent breaks well free to take an uncontested mark by the ball slips through his fingers

18min - Joyce gets to the front of a marking contest and does a solid spoil

26min - the ball is kicked forward by Hawks to a 2v2. Joyce is the man in front and actually gives up position to put a block on the opponent that would be the second man up and relies on Howard to make ground to go for the spoil.
Did not love that play at all... seems like he could have been pinged for a block but more so, didn’t love him giving up his spot

28min - not sure if this was him but he runs to a marking contest, side steps the contest and moves to the side to wait for a pass and leaves his team mates to spoil

2nd quarter

3min - Hawthorn’s first goal - is side to side with his opponent in the prime spot, goes for the spoil and completely misses the ball leading to a mark out the back.

5min - Hawks bomb forward - straight to him, gets his hands on the ball but is spoiled... doesn’t do much to protect the space

14min mark - the balls kicked to a contest to Joyce’s left... he’s primed to be third man up but his opponent bumps into his left and he falls over and Kosi takes a contested mark

18min - gets the ball handed to him deep in defence and does a nice big kick to a contest up the ground -

20min - Hawks kick long forward, Joyce is in the contest and gets his hands on the ball but doesn’t mark

Couple of observations so far...

He really doesn’t look that comfortable spoiling and on a few occasions looked to stay down even though he had the better position

Is very one effort at the contest e.g. goes up for a spoil and stops or goes for a block/bump and stops

At this mome to, plays strictly defensively... doesn’t cover as much space or get to as many contests as Howard or Wilkes - have to imagine that’s an instruction from the coach. Not a big contested mark either

He does seem fairly well composed at ground level and the few touches he had in that half were decent

He’s gets a lot more ball in the second half according to the stats so am keen to check that out hopefully tomorrow. Also noted he got poked in the eye and played through and still went up for contests shortly after so that’s decent... but looks very green to me as a defender so far

Cheers for that report skeptic!

[shanegrambeau]

Particularly keen to hear anyone’s opinion about his value, potential and immediately available, compared to Clav’s.

[shanegrambeau]

...and I’d hazard a guess, that Joyce might get left out for Gold Coast. Maybe Battle too.

So the outs might be Joyce, Battle and the ins, Highmore, Frawley? Or DMac?


..just kidding about Battles.but he might be scraping his luck from the bottom of the ice cream tub now...and asking himself, how many more spoons have I got left?

[MC Gusto]

Wouldn’t highmore be in the mix for his spot as well?

[SaintPav]

tick-tock....

[ace]

I could be wrong about this but I think that the plan is that Frawley will replace him over the next few weeks which should allow Howard more freedom.

So is Carlisle officially finished, or just down on form?

Carlisle did not play for Sandy either due to a back issue.

[ace]

I’d like to see him line up against a quality opponent in a tough match where we’re not on top from the start and beat him

The idea of Joyce in a final... at this stage, frankly scares me

What about one on one in the goal square in a grand final with 30 sec to go. We’re 5 points up.

We have a chance to win a grand final.
I'll take that this year..

[skeptic]

Part 2 - 3/4

2.30 - ball kicked forward to contest, Joyce stays down with his man and leaves the spoil for a team mate
5.30 - Ball in Hawk’s 50, Joyce leaves his man to get to a contest and is a spare number around the ball. Not used but did the right thing (tick)
6.10 - Goes up in a marking contest, is the man in front and goes too far forward, ends up under the ball and misses the punch but nil bad effect
12min - Short pass to Joyce, handballs to free man
15min - Handed the ball, hesitates, comes under pressure and kicks short without issue
17min - Ball goes to a contest, Joyce drops back to guard his man and leaves others to compete
19min - ball kicked to the hawk’s square, Joyce goes up and a Hawk takes a mark and kicks a goal. Completely ineffective attempt to spoil
25min - Joyce takes an uncontested mark from a Hawk’s thrust forward and does a short kick to a team mate
28min - Competes well in a marking contest and gets a free kick. Kicks long to a contest.

Final Quarter
9min - Contested ball in Hawk’s 50, he hangs back to guard his man which in this instance was the clear, correct decision
14min - Hawk’s kick out of defence to just past Saints’ HFF, Joyce is there 1v2 and brings the ball to ground
18.15 - Joyce is led to the ball to spoil which he does, is given the ball and bombs a kick out of defence straight to a Hawk
18.50 - Short kick to Joyce in BP who marks and kicks short to team mate
19.30 - Gets the ball on the wing in a contest and tackled immediately
19.50 - 1v1 contest with the ball on the ground at Hawk’s 50, reads the ball poorly and attempts a dinky kick off the ground after being in a bad position
27min - Decent spoil by Joyce running back to a contest
30min - Hawks kick the ball forward to a 1:1 contest with Joyce. His opponent gets front spot, gets both hands on the ball and drops a soda. Joyce badly beaten in contest. Moments later the ball is handed to Joyce to kick out of defence and under pressure kicks it straight to a lone Hawk
31min - attempts to kick short to a Saint under pressure but it’s intercepted

[skeptic]

Take aways from the close up

Joyce is really bad in marking contests... for starters, he looks really uncomfortable and has a habit of trying to hang back if he doesn’t have to go up. One very much gets the impression that his team mates attempted to compensate for his aerial work and let him off the hook where possible.
There were at least three - four occasions where he was clearly the player in the best position to effect a spoil, punched at and completely missed the ball altogether. He got very lucky a number of times IMO that his opponent either subsequently dropped the ball or his team mates effected the contest. What’s more concerning is his lack of attack in the air... looks very green in this regard and was exposed a few times. Conceded 2 goals, lucky not to give up another 3 shots.
Doesn’t look like he reads the play well.

Doesn’t look like taking a contested mark

His disposal is interesting. He plays it very safe 90% of the time. Gets the ball uncontested and goes shot by hand and foot. Saw him ball under pressure/with no option to go short on three occasions - twice he kicked it directly to a Hawthorn player on his own and on the third occasion he went long to a pack

Work rate was hard to assess. Late in the game he started pushing up the ground a bit and getting to contests and I kind of liked what I saw there. Fitness doesn’t seem to be an issue...
But again, really didn’t like what I saw in how he hangs back in defence, is frequently the last man back guarding space and hangs back from the contests at ground level If he can.

All in all... doesn’t look ready to me. He was at best ok... but was protected by his team mates. Vaguely reminds me of a game in the Lyon era when all of our main defenders were down and I think Gwilt was forced to punch way above his weight hence guys like Raph and Fisher compensated +++ by ensuring they were third men up and protecting the contest.

At this point, given his age/length of time on the list and lack of obvious weapon. I see little upside to persevering with him and a lot of risk of his match up being exploited. I personally would 100% rather take my chances with Highmore who based on all accounts took a plethora of marks at Sandy and has a much higher ceiling

[minneapolis]

Thanks Skeptic. I agree and it is kind of what was expected. (Hence Frawley and Highmore).

Thanks Darragh for your time and you can go home the fittest you have ever been.

[saintsRrising]

At this point, given his age/length of time on the list and lack of obvious weapon. I see little upside to persevering with him and a lot of risk of his match up being exploited. I personally would 100% rather take my chances with Highmore who based on all accounts took a plethora of marks at Sandy and has a much higher ceiling

To be a genuine key defender at his height you need to be a really good footballer which he is not.

For the "third defender" type role we have better options in Coffield, Wilkie and Highmore the new boy on the block. Coffield I prefer to keep more as an interceptor.

So I just do not see a place for Joyce as either a key defender or "third tall" defender.

With Carlisle continuing to have back problems off and on, and with Clavarino being poor apart from his intercept game it would seem that our only certain key defender is Howard, and we need two as big forwards are only getting more and more common at present.

And while we clearly need another true key defender on our list at the end of this season if Frawley goes ok on his return I think that I would rather keep him on the list for 2022 than Joyce.

[saynta]

Give the guy a break and some game time to find his feet ffs. Not his fault that he didn't get proper game experience last year.

Talk about eating your own.Geez there are some f****** keyboard experts on this site.

You don't see the same crap appearing on the saints facebook page. Thankfully.

[skeptic]

The conversation was about discussing his performance... not emotionally hitting out against posters that are sharing their opinions because you don’t like them

If you have actual things to contribute to the topic based on Joyce’s performance pls contribute... but don’t get shirty with others because you’re embarrassed about talking up a player for 2 years that most other ppl can see isn’t going to make it

And don’t pretend you don’t rip into Saints players that are on the list that for whatever reason you don’t like... Lee, Wilkes, Delaney and Parker are examples of a bunch that you rubbished frequently on this forum whilst they were playing

What an ego

[shanegrambeau]

At this point, given his age/length of time on the list and lack of obvious weapon. I see little upside to persevering with him and a lot of risk of his match up being exploited. I personally would 100% rather take my chances with Highmore who based on all accounts took a plethora of marks at Sandy and has a much higher ceiling

To be a genuine key defender at his height you need to be a really good footballer which he is not.

For the "third defender" type role we have better options in Coffield, Wilkie and Highmore the new boy on the block. Coffield I prefer to keep more as an interceptor.

So I just do not see a place for Joyce as either a key defender or "third tall" defender.

With Carlisle continuing to have back problems off and on, and with Clavarino being poor apart from his intercept game it would seem that our only certain key defender is Howard, and we need two as big forwards are only getting more and more common at present.

And while we clearly need another true key defender on our list at the end of this season if Frawley goes ok on his return I think that I would rather keep him on the list for 2022 than Joyce.

So I take it you don’t rate Highmore much?

Seems all of a sudden, our defence is seriously deficient. With Paton down the cupboard looks pretty bare.

Logan wasn’t much chop either?

[saintsRrising]

So I take it you don’t rate Highmore much?

No sure why you formed that opinion as I did not post on Highmore.

I was talking of true key defenders - CHB or FB

I think Highmore is your modern "third tall" intercept type defender and is competing directly with Wilkie for that spot. With having also Coffield available, it is very difficult to play all of Wilkie, Coffield and Highmore in the one team. When we did play the three I think Coffields form suffered. Highmore looks promising, but he has strong competition for that spot in the team.

You could however have done it this week as the Suns only have one tall key forward in King, and no actual tall rucks to push/rest forward.

I cannot see Highmore being the answer for key forwards like Lynch, Hawkins, Cameron, Kennedy etc or the rucks who who play forward.

Logan wasn’t much chop either?

Not as a key defender no. He was taller, but played more as a third tall. I think he was reasonable as the third defender role, but Wilkie made him redundant.

[SaintPav]

Highmore is a bit vanilla for my liking.

The Joyce selection says more about how players like Ben L are going than anything

This is just a feeling and I can't prove this clearly, but I reckon the coach is trying to send a message to the wider playing group. You put in and do everything we ask of you, you get picked.

[shanegrambeau]

So I take it you don’t rate Highmore much?

No sure why you formed that opinion as I did not post on Highmore.

I was talking of true key defenders - CHB or FB

I think Highmore is your modern "third tall" intercept type defender and is competing directly with Wilkie for that spot. With having also Coffield available, it is very difficult to play all of Wilkie, Coffield and Highmore in the one team. When we did play the three I think Coffields form suffered. Highmore looks promising, but he has strong competition for that spot in the team.

You could however have done it this week as the Suns only have one tall key forward in King, and no actual tall rucks to push/rest forward.

I cannot see Highmore being the answer for key forwards like Lynch, Hawkins, Cameron, Kennedy etc or the rucks who who play forward.

Logan wasn’t much chop either?

Not as a key defender no. He was taller, but played more as a third tall. I think he was reasonable as the third defender role, but Wilkie made him redundant.

Mmmn
Well Highmore is 193cm, nit leaper? More of a Marsh-like head height grabber?

We re missing Paton it seems, all 186cm of him

[saintsRrising]

So I take it you don’t rate Highmore much?

No sure why you formed that opinion as I did not post on Highmore.

I was talking of true key defenders - CHB or FB

I think Highmore is your modern "third tall" intercept type defender and is competing directly with Wilkie for that spot. With having also Coffield available, it is very difficult to play all of Wilkie, Coffield and Highmore in the one team. When we did play the three I think Coffields form suffered. Highmore looks promising, but he has strong competition for that spot in the team.

You could however have done it this week as the Suns only have one tall key forward in King, and no actual tall rucks to push/rest forward.

I cannot see Highmore being the answer for key forwards like Lynch, Hawkins, Cameron, Kennedy etc or the rucks who who play forward.

Logan wasn’t much chop either?

Not as a key defender no. He was taller, but played more as a third tall. I think he was reasonable as the third defender role, but Wilkie made him redundant.

Mmmn
Well Highmore is 193cm, nit leaper? More of a Marsh-like head height grabber?

We re missing Paton it seems, all 186cm of him

Paton is a back pocket, and yes we miss him but not as a key defender.

Right here and now I just do not see Highmore as a key defender. Ina couple of years if he puts on some muscle, maybe but probably not. But right now against teams with two big fowards = no for me.

Right now intercept defender is his gig.