Saints vs Tigers

[Devilhead]

And my point is proven!!!

You think 3 smalls is a good mix ...... others don't ..... especially against certain teams

Nothing wrong with trying a new set-up as predictability will invariably lead to failure

So I am not sure what point I have proven ........ considering I have no issue with Lonie other than my personal opinion that Higgins and Butler are better small forwards

[Scollop]

And my point is proven!!!

What point? Yes, there are whipping boys? Why do you think that’s so?

Maybe because their weaknesses have been exposed far too often and the team had improved to a point where their effectiveness is questioned.

They’re both very good footballers. Seb has shown that he can play different positions and that will be handy. I think Lonie is very limited.

Seb will play a role in our finals teams and I hope he gets to put a team medal around his neck. He’s earnt that

[Devilhead]

If we say, swapped Battle and Lonie - I’d be concerned about our ground balls.

So on Saturday we also had both Billings & D-Train gathering/swooping on ground balls in the forward line

A few of which lead to goals

[The Barometer]

He’s kicked 2 goals and none in the last three matches
8 touches vs Melbourne
11 vs GWS - one miracle goal and one that he took advantage
13 touches vs WCE, not overly effective

His game vs Essendon got 17 touches in a 75 point drubbing. 1 tackle, no goals - don’t think anybody was particularly effective that game minus the usuals

Point here is that like Kent, his game is heavily dependent on getting on the end of plays to kick goals. Close check him and he generally gets frozen out.
Size is important because he gets too easily pushed off the ball to scavenge goals out of packs.

2 goals in four games for a small forward

I’ve yet to here one convincing argument as to why we weren’t better off playing Bytel in Lonie’s place after rd2 (or Butler after rd1) and have Steele, Crouch and Billings sit in the pocket for patches on end.

Agree with this. Not enough return re goals, not only gets pushed off the ball also struggles to stick a tackle.
Like the idea of mids playing forward for patches, especially as we see less interchanges and gives greater flexibility than one(?) trick Lonies.

[B.M]

I’m actually not sure how Lonie gets a game... let alone the 80 he’s played

Considering he is so poor and obviously too small to play AFL

Condemned by the experts on SS

Fortunately for him, real coaches have thought otherwise

On Seb Ross
Even if he didn’t win those B&Fs and was runner up to Robbo and Rowan (even though he was voted as such by AFL coaches)
That means he was RU best and fairest 3 times in 4 years!!!
Voted the second best player at an AFL club
Not bad for a chump?!

No, we don’t have whipping boys at all, do we?!?!

[Vortex]

Did Ratts praise Lonie after the game? Can anyone confirm?

The coaches after match press conferences are readily available online

From what I recall the coach didn’t single out Lonie and there wasn’t a question from the journos that specifically referenced Lonie. Ratts was asked a question about pressure in the forward line or the journos talked about the pressure in general and Ratts said the names Butler, Higgins and Lonie and said the pressure from them as a collective was good.

So I was right then.

[Sobraz]

Lonie hasn’t done enough to hold his spot & in my view he needs to be overlooked if we are going to improve enough to be a real contender.

But, if the alternative is Kent, I’m happy to be a middle of the range team as long as Kent doesn’t play again.
He is a mile off AFL quality as has been shown for several years now. Shouldn’t ever be considered unless our injury list is 15+.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[skeptic]

I’m actually not sure how Lonie gets a game... let alone the 80 he’s played

Considering he is so poor and obviously too small to play AFL

Condemned by the experts on SS

Fortunately for him, real coaches have thought otherwise

People are actually taking the team to respond respectful to your posts and are on topic

Are you going to go back to only offering indignation and sarcasm when people make football arguments you don’t agree with? In my experience that path eventually escalates to you having an outburst and quitting SS for about a year

[B.M]

Haha

I just get sick and tired of people coming out with the same crap!

Just read this thread for instance

People actually trying to convince themselves of the ridiculous

I mean, that post about Seb Ross is embarrassing from a StKilda supporter.
1/ because it’s wrong
2/ it’s disrespectful

Cop that s*** from opposition supporters, and retort

Won’t cop it, on a Saints forum from arm chair experts who wouldn’t have a clue.

[B.M]

By the way Skeptic

I’m just giving the facts

As a small forward, Lonie is a goal per game, dozen disposals (5CP/7UP) , 2.5 tackles, 2 i50s, .5 GA’s and one 1%er footballer at the elite level.

Best effort of 4 goals from 18 disposals vs Hawthorn
And 4 goals from 20 disposals vs WB

Those numbers over a 6 year 80 game career, so a good sample size.
Not elite numbers, but has been serviceable.

From the crap he gets on here, you’d think he never got a kick!

And for all of those legends who think he can’t play footy, a little story.

In 2015 & 2016 I would often go to watch Sandy play (which is obviously a huge step up from suburban footy!), and typically when Jack L played he played in the midfield.
He was clearly a cut above that standard, and he was only 19/20 at the time. One game, think against Richmond he kicked 3 and had 35 possessions playing through the midfield.

So, is he a star
At AFL level - no
Just a clever small forward with a few tricks, he is tough for his size and courageous as need be.

But can he play footy - he’s better any of us have or will ever be

[saintsRrising]

Mason Wood has kicked more of his career goals against the Tigers than any other side

Is it worth playing him over Lonie in this match?

Gives us an extra mobile marking tall - alongside Membrey, King and resting ruck

No

[Vortex]

Did the Dogs make Lones a God father offer and we offered more? Can anyone confirm?

[B.M]

To answer your question

I think most clubs go with three small forwards

Otherwise the ability to pressure from the front, limit easy rebound and cause forward half turnover/mid turnover is lessened.

Big blokes as a rule, do not provide as much defensive pressure.
For instance, I think King is poor defensively.

[skeptic]

By the way Skeptic

I’m just giving the facts

As a small forward, Lonie is a goal per game, dozen disposals (5CP/7UP) , 2.5 tackles, 2 i50s, .5 GA’s and one 1%er footballer at the elite level.

Best effort of 4 goals from 18 disposals vs Hawthorn
And 4 goals from 20 disposals vs WB

Those numbers over a 6 year 80 game career, so a good sample size.
Not elite numbers, but has been serviceable.

From the crap he gets on here, you’d think he never got a kick!

And for all of those legends who think he can’t play footy, a little story.

In 2015 & 2016 I would often go to watch Sandy play (which is obviously a huge step up from suburban footy!), and typically when Jack L played he played in the midfield.
He was clearly a cut above that standard, and he was only 19/20 at the time. One game, think against Richmond he kicked 3 and had 35 possessions playing through the midfield.

So, is he a star
At AFL level - no
Just a clever small forward with a few tricks, he is tough for his size and courageous as need be.

But can he play footy - he’s better any of us have or will ever be

I’m not suggesting that he’s a terrible player and shouldn’t be on an AFL list or our list. I’m not arguing that he isn’t better than any of us... because that would be stupid and is not relevant... and no one in this thread has suggested that he doesn’t work hard, isn’t courageous or a great team player

It’s as you’ve said... he isn’t a star and hasn’t quite lived up to the promise he showed of going into the very good category a few years back. At the moment he’s a 16-22 player... better than Kent but personally I’d prefer both Butler and Higgins to him as they have less deficiencies in their game and both have kicked more goals than him this season.

Personally... as stated... not a fan of the 3 small forward structure... don’t think you get good bang for your buck. Currently of the 3, I’d rather Higgins and Butler get the nod.
2 goals in four games isn’t great output and work rate alone isn’t a great reason to keep players in the team

[skeptic]

To answer your question

I think most clubs go with three small forwards

Otherwise the ability to pressure from the front, limit easy rebound and cause forward half turnover/mid turnover is lessened.

Big blokes as a rule, do not provide as much defensive pressure.
For instance, I think King is poor defensively.

Not getting caught on size here... no ones suggesting replace him with Ryder. But three players that can only play small forward is a problem because you can’t do anything with them against the tide.

IMO to improve his game Lonie needs to be able to get more ball... whether it’s contested or on the outside.

Running and pressure should be a mandatory requirement for all the running players... it’s not a weapon

[The Barometer]

Mason Wood has kicked more of his career goals against the Tigers than any other side

Is it worth playing him over Lonie in this match?

Gives us an extra mobile marking tall - alongside Membrey, King and resting ruck

No

I don’t know much about Wood. Does he play small/tall? is he one dimensional like Lonie or a bit more versatile?

[Scollop]

Haha

I just get sick and tired of people coming out with the same crap!

Just read this thread for instance

People actually trying to convince themselves of the ridiculous

I mean, that post about Seb Ross is embarrassing from a StKilda supporter.
1/ because it’s wrong
2/ it’s disrespectful

Cop that s*** from opposition supporters, and retort

Won’t cop it, on a Saints forum from arm chair experts who wouldn’t have a clue.

You are entitled to your quasi expert opinion based on ALL that wealth of AFL footy knowledge you possess and you can express your opinion equally like everyone else by watching our team from your arm chair or from attending games.

There’s more AFL coaches that get it Wrong each year than there are coaches who get it right. The coaches who can brag that they know what they’re doing are usually the ones who give their fans an opportunity to cheer in September

Your post and your opinion is Wrong. If you don’t want to cop it, you need to visit here less frequently or foe me or leave the forum

[perfectionist]

Like West Coast, the secret to Richmond's game is the high number of contested marks on the back line - this stops opposition scoring opportunities which are then turned into Richmond attacks. It's no accident these teams have won the the last 4 flags between them. We had a rare bit of luck on Saturday with one of the two main WC "markers" (Hurn) going off early. At Richmond, neither Grimes nor Astbury pick up the tall forwards, instead going to small forwards to create a massive height mismatch. They are able to do this because they are very good on the ground for their height and with the support they get from other players. It often looks like they have a spare man in defence when in fact they don't. Tackling this advantage is no easy feat. In fact, you can't - directly. The solution is for our talls to outmark their opponents forcing Grimes and/or Astbury to be shifted.

[Vortex]

Like West Coast, the secret to Richmond's game is the high number of contested marks on the back line - this stops opposition scoring opportunities attacks which are then turned into Richmond attacks. It's no accident these teams have won the the last 4 flags between them. We had a rare bit of luck on Saturday with one of the two main WC "markers" (Hurn) going off early. At Richmond, neither Grimes nor Astbury pick up the tall forwards, instead going to small forwards to create a massive height mismatch. They are able to do this because they are very good on the ground for their height and with the support they get from other players. It often looks like they have spare man in defence when in fact they don't. Tackling this advantage is no easy feat. In fact, you can't - directly. The solution is for our talls to outmark their opponents forcing Grimes and or Astbury to be shifted.

I tend to agree that this game will be won by our forwards getting on top of the Tigers backline. Problem is the forward line is our main weakness. Noah Balta can lose his composure when put under pressure so I would be trying to isolate him where possible.

King could be up and about this week with confidence high so the timing could be right for the forwards to put on a show at Docklands.

[saintsRrising]

I don’t know much about Wood. Does he play small/tall? is he one dimensional like Lonie or a bit more versatile?

He is essentially a medium marking forward like Membrey. He can play if Membrey is injured, or if we have too many tall forwards injured.

[saintsRrising]

I’m not suggesting that he’s a terrible player and shouldn’t be on an AFL list or our list. I’m not arguing that he isn’t better than any of us... because that would be stupid and is not relevant... and no one in this thread has suggested that he doesn’t work hard, isn’t courageous or a great team player

It’s as you’ve said... he isn’t a star and hasn’t quite lived up to the promise he showed of going into the very good category a few years back. At the moment he’s a 16-22 player... better than Kent but personally I’d prefer both Butler and Higgins to him as they have less deficiencies in their game and both have kicked more goals than him this season.

Personally... as stated... not a fan of the 3 small forward structure... don’t think you get good bang for your buck. Currently of the 3, I’d rather Higgins and Butler get the nod.
2 goals in four games isn’t great output and work rate alone isn’t a great reason to keep players in the team

Personally if we have all of our players available for selection, I think Lonie gets squeezed out.

Right here and now he makes the best 22 as we do not

If Gresham or Hannas were available I would play either of them in front of Lonie.

At this seasons start Gresh was effectively keeping Bytel out of the 22. If Bytel keeps showing what he delivered against the Weagles, and keeps developing like I expect him to be first 22 (ie as in if selecting when everyone is fit) by seasons end.

2022 Gresh will be back as a mid/forward and that will then make it tougher for Lonie to play regularly.


Just on current best 22. Ryder will be back in a week or two. I would prefer to keep Carlisle in the 22 and if so then a tough call will need to be made on one of our other backs.

[Ghost Like]

Did the Dogs make Lones a God father offer and we offered more? Can anyone confirm?

I don't believe so, that offer went to Bruce. St Kilda put a deal to Lonie, he didn't like it and shopped himself around. Needless to say he took St Kilda's offer.

[saynta]

You don’t think we have whipping boys?!

Fair dinkum, Seb Ross has won 2 B&Fs and he’s still the one we want out of the side!!!

Lonie has one quiet game (was one of the better players in the debacle vs Essendon)

And he doesn’t just get questioned - we want him gone!!!
For a slow mid - Dunstan?? Go figure???

We have a long and proud tradition on SS of zeroing in on a player, waiting and watching for their every fault and venting our spleens on this very forum!!

Read the match day threads FFS!!!

Lonie has long been a whipping boy, generally due to his size... which means FA!
He even gets compared to Caleb Daniel, who is also a small, but plays a completely different position??

Speaking of short
Brent Harvey, Sam Mitchell, Dane Zorko, Rory Laird, Marc Murphy just to name a few who were short, but effective.
In the land of Giant midfielders 190+
Two recent Brownlow medallists are 178cm

Lonie at 174 is short, but really, you need small forwards to be good at ground level and generally speaking, shorter players are better at ground level

We have two talks
King 202
Resting Ruck

1 medium
Membrey 188

Three small
Butler 182
Higgins 178
Lonie 174

Good mix IMO

If we say, swapped Battle and Lonie - I’d be concerned about our ground balls.

Couple of things.

Seb is a whipping boy because his numerous and sometimes insignificant disposal count is valued more than contested possessions or contested marks or match winning inspirational goals from other players. I am so sick of tv or radio footy commentators spewing out statistics just before the final quarter and telling us how good someone played based on a possession count.

It’s the same reason that many footy purists don’t value the Brownlow medal these days

I value 4-5 contested marks from RoMa more than 15-20 short kicks or handballs from a mid

Do you? Sure it depends on the specific moment in a match and the chain of possessions before and after

Who inspires the team? Marshall or Seb?

We’ve been through this before, but have a look specifically at the game on the weekend. The coaches gave Marshall votes. Why?

Seb has earnt his success through hard work and no one can take that away from him, but we’re allowed to have an opinion aren’t we?

Seb shouldn’t have won the B&F in 2017 imo and was lucky to win again in 2019

Robbo was better overall imo and more of an influence to team success in 2017

Marshall was more of an influence to team success in 2019. This is just my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

As far as Lonie is concerned, it’s not his size that is the issue. It’s his inability to stick tackles and his wastefulenss.

Size is not an issue as far as our talls ability to win contested ground ball. Skunk and Winx are elite below their knees imo

I think King is brilliant with the loose ground ball. Max's pressure and tackling were good.

King is also quick, so even though he's 6' 10" he showed he can 'play like a small', so Lonie goes out for mine

Butler and Billings showed good form and were brilliant with crumbing goals

Add Snags and add the agile and fast King and there's no room for Lonie imo

Glad you stated that it was only your opinion. Obviously the club didn't agree with you and thankfully so. Seb deserved everything he got, in my humble opinion . And the club's as well it would seem.

There were lots of calls to delist or trade Seb in his younger days. I believe that the posters who had egg all over their faces from those earlier calls, have never accepted that Seb is a f****** good footballer, hence the need to continue to denigrate him to this day.

[Vortex]

Did the Dogs make Lones a God father offer and we offered more? Can anyone confirm?

I don't believe so, that offer went to Bruce. St Kilda put a deal to Lonie, he didn't like it and shopped himself around. Needless to say he took St Kilda's offer.

Yeah I seem to recall media claiming the Dogs were chasing Lones hard in addition to other clubs showing interest. I think he'll be at another club next year.

[saynta]

Haha

I just get sick and tired of people coming out with the same crap!

Just read this thread for instance

People actually trying to convince themselves of the ridiculous

I mean, that post about Seb Ross is embarrassing from a StKilda supporter.
1/ because it’s wrong
2/ it’s disrespectful

Cop that s*** from opposition supporters, and retort

Won’t cop it, on a Saints forum from arm chair experts who wouldn’t have a clue.

Hear, hear.