Saints vs Tigers

[Saintmatt]

Lonie is a good small forward who has already had a solid career

He’s not in the side to take contested marks, win clearances or get 20+ possessions

He’s there to crumb, to pressure and to have score involvements

True. But like a lot of his mates - his pressure this year has been average at best (GWS game was adequate) and as for crumbing - Kevin Bartlett would've been hopeless in the Melb and Ess games. Can't crumb if the ball doesn't get down there.

My view is that the Ryder/Marshall combo benefits Lonie almost as much as anyone else in the team. With one of them resting forward it means that King, Membrey and Paddy/Project are all there creating constest and marking or bringing the ball to ground. Once we can play both of Paddy/Project - Lonie will flourish.

Until then - he's prob going to kick an opportunist goal from time to time but his lack of height and body mass will still count against him being an effective pressure forward

[Saintmatt]

could be they're testing dunstan as a lock in forward to replace the role geary played at times last year?

Luke definitely doesn't have the tank for that. I see Luke as a 1-dimensional inside mid ... and Jack Bytel is already better and more dynamic at that role than Luke ever was.

Maybe, love Bytel but he has yet to win a brownlow vote, unlike Luke.

That's true - but Bytel has only played with some decent mids around him that take votes away whereas Luke's clearances stuck out like dog's balls as it was pretty much him doing it.

[samoht]

I think a mid-sized player with leg speed, someone who can apply extreme forward pressure and who can kick a goal here and there and help lock the ball in, will only benefit our forward line and provide more balance.

Maybe Long can be that player?

I hate seeing Lonie (who is a smart player, but who is slow unfortunately) being easily outmarked and providing little in the way of "aerial" or body-to-body contest/pressure.

[bigcarl]

Tigers fans don’t rate us and have this pencilled in as a win. They are supremely arrogant, I guess with good reason (Dusty will carry them over the line again).

I think we are a chance if we show up, but our ruck division and structure without Ryder/Marshall is a worry

[B.M]

How would I rate Lonie’s season?

1 good game
1 average game
2 below average

Sometimes as a small forward you live and die by what goes on up the field and how your Keys are playing.
And he wasn’t Robinson Caruso by playing poorly at times this season

Having said that, his job is score involvements and pressure
He’s been down on those metrics

His last 3 seasons have been more than acceptable. A number of good games and consistently reasonable games
Which for a small forward in an average team is good

It’s not like he’s Jamie Cripps or Jason Castagna or Josh Thomas or other small forwards who play in teams with dominant midfieldsso the can downhill ski a bit

[older saint]

Lonie doing a lot more not noticed things than previous years. Yes needs to kick goals but his pressure acts were right up on Saturday and would be a bad message to drop him when he like all were told the need to increase pressure etc.

No way would I swap Coffied for Long aside from both playing back, one if good overhead mark, can play bigger and usually a good ball user, the other is a hard smaller defender whoi is fearless but often butchers the ball.

Apart from Marshall injury i wouldnt change anything - change for change sake otherwise.
IMO

[freely]

is Bytel good to go after the head knock?

[B.M]

Lonie, like Seb Ross

And before them
Sam Gilbert, Newnes, Weller, Ralph Clarke and all the other Whipping boys get noticed every-time they make a mistake.

And never get credit for any good they do

Fair enough, they were-are not A Graders
But are not the shockers we are led to believe - especially Seb

Lonie was very good in 18-19 with a knee injury in there and played some good footy again last season
Sam Gilbert could turn it over but in 09-10 was outstanding with a podium finish in the TBA
Ralph Clarke’s body let him down, and he lost confidence at times and his slow decision making was obvious at times. Other times he was creative and wonderfully courageous always, his 08 finals series was outstanding
Newnes is now proving at Carlton that his excellent years on the Wing in 15-16 were no fluke. His positioning as a defensive forward saw him lose a bit of form and confidence and his output waned.
Much the same for Weller. Had a couple of really strong seasons as a run with inside mid. Then went forward and played a defensive role and was less effective.
Ross, well you know my thoughts on him, an outstanding servant already and at his best is a very good footballer. Can find the footy, very creative hands, is very resilient. His kicking is inconsistent under pressure, but many inside Mids kicking efficiency is average.

We love a whipping boy though, Someone to vent about!!!

Lonie is that - what is hilarious is that people actually believe he cannot play because he is too small?!
No, if he cannot play, it’s because he’s not good enough!!!
There are many super players that are small, and they prove the rule
If you’re good enough, you’re big enough!!!

[samoht]

Currently, we have 2 small forwards and one tiny forward ... Higgins, Butler and Lonie.

Everyone thinks Lonie can play.

No-one sees him as the "whipping boy" - you might be jumping the gun, B.M. - we are just discussing how we can get the balance right in our forward line.

Butler has leg speed ... and Higgins is stronger than Lonie (he doesn't get shoved around as easily) - and can play some midfield minutes.

Perhaps, Lonie can be replaced by a bigger player (mid-sized) with more leg speed (Lonie has average speed) - that's all - to get the balance right (so that we are not over-represented by small forwards and so that we can apply effective defensive pressure in our F50)?

Too many small forwards could be overkill - and it certainly was against Melbourne and Essendon?
This is all we're dicussing - as far as I can see - but I could be wrong?

[amusingname]

Currently, we have 2 small forwards and one tiny forward ... Higgins, Butler and Lonie.

Everyone thinks Lonie can play.

No-one sees him as the "whipping boy" - you might be jumping the gun, B.M. - we are just discussing how we can get the balance right in our forward line.

Butler has leg speed ... and Higgins is stronger than Lonie (he doesn't get shoved around as easily) - and can play some midfield minutes.

Perhaps, Lonie can be replaced by a bigger player (mid-sized) with more leg speed (Lonie has average speed) - that's all - to get the balance right (so that we are not over-represented by small forwards and so that we can apply effective defensive pressure in our F50)?

Too many small forwards could be overkill - and it certainly was against Melbourne and Essendon?
This is all we're dicussing - as far as I can see - but I could be wrong?

The match day thread would suggest otherwise. Constant calls during the first half for Lonie to never be allowed to play again, etc.

[B.M]

I would argue Lonie is a very good pressure forward. it was his double tackle that created the turn over that resulted in a Butler goal.

Higgins can lack defensively, which is why he was left out at Richmond.

Small forwards have good days and quiet days, it’s part and parcel of the role.

What is important is that they stay in structure and take their chances and play their role. It’s about the entire forward line functioning, not 1 player. They can’t go kick chasing, if the ball isn’t falling to them.

Still don’t see what size has to do with anything?

[longtimesaint]

is Bytel good to go after the head knock?

Hey trained well today so doesn’t appear affected in any way.

[samoht]

The match day thread would suggest otherwise. Constant calls during the first half for Lonie to never be allowed to play again, etc.

That's wrong ... but I'm wondering how many said this (that Lonie should never play again) - and if it's the same 3 or 4 people?
3 or 4 people may have been frustrated enough and motivated enough to post against Lonie but are not representative of the silent majority, of course.

It did look like we had too many small forwards playing in our 2 prior games (vs Melbourne and Essendon) - but most of us would not see this as Lonie's fault - and maybe Lonie was unfairly singled out (by the 3 or 4) when things weren't going our way in the first half vs WCE, due to pent-up frustration.

It's also not Lonie's fault that we've recruited another 2 small forwards.
But, team balance has to come first - and it'll be interested to see if we can continue playing all 3.
Bottom line, he is competing against another 2 small forwards (and they are competing against him).

re: "We love a whipping boy though, Someone to vent about!!!" ... most of us, I'm sure, would disagree with that.

[skeptic]

Currently, we have 2 small forwards and one tiny forward ... Higgins, Butler and Lonie.

Everyone thinks Lonie can play.

No-one sees him as the "whipping boy" - you might be jumping the gun, B.M. - we are just discussing how we can get the balance right in our forward line.

Butler has leg speed ... and Higgins is stronger than Lonie (he doesn't get shoved around as easily) - and can play some midfield minutes.

Perhaps, Lonie can be replaced by a bigger player (mid-sized) with more leg speed (Lonie has average speed) - that's all - to get the balance right (so that we are not over-represented by small forwards and so that we can apply effective defensive pressure in our F50)?

Too many small forwards could be overkill - and it certainly was against Melbourne and Essendon?
This is all we're dicussing - as far as I can see - but I could be wrong?

Yeah I think this sums it up for me for the most part.

In case you didn’t know I well and truly subscribe to the idea that you should only have 2 small forwards in the team because their style/effectiveness is overly reliant on mid dominance and taller forwards bringing the ball to ground...
hence I think you need put the focus on ball winners and users to get that supply

Midfielders can rest in the forward line and do what forward pockets do for patches at a time whereas the small forwards generally can’t be mids

Bring this back to Lonie... whilst I have him at a clear 3 of the current crop in the best 22, that’s not to say he should be cut from the list. He’s just the next one in.

100% agree Lonie’s work rate, effort, attack etc is beyond question but he’s lacking the attributes to actually hurt the opposition with any degree on regularity
Butler has breakaway speed and excellent disposal
Higgins is a decent mark for his size, wins more contested ball, can run a bit more and at the moment is kicking goals most consistently

Lonie unfortunately is simply to reliant on having the ball given to him when he’s free to score
With his lack of strength/height/speed the reality is to negate him the opposition just needs to heck him closely

He doesn’t have a weapon
His work rate is great but I’m not a huge fan of having guys in just for work rate...

[saynta]

Still don’t see what size has to do with anything?

That's what I keep telling the missus.

[B.M]

You don’t think we have whipping boys?!

Fair dinkum, Seb Ross has won 2 B&Fs and he’s still the one we want out of the side!!!

Lonie has one quiet game (was one of the better players in the debacle vs Essendon)

And he doesn’t just get questioned - we want him gone!!!
For a slow mid - Dunstan?? Go figure???

We have a long and proud tradition on SS of zeroing in on a player, waiting and watching for their every fault and venting our spleens on this very forum!!

Read the match day threads FFS!!!

Lonie has long been a whipping boy, generally due to his size... which means FA!
He even gets compared to Caleb Daniel, who is also a small, but plays a completely different position??

Speaking of short
Brent Harvey, Sam Mitchell, Dane Zorko, Rory Laird, Marc Murphy just to name a few who were short, but effective.
In the land of Giant midfielders 190+
Two recent Brownlow medallists are 178cm

Lonie at 174 is short, but really, you need small forwards to be good at ground level and generally speaking, shorter players are better at ground level

We have two talks
King 202
Resting Ruck

1 medium
Membrey 188

Three small
Butler 182
Higgins 178
Lonie 174

Good mix IMO

If we say, swapped Battle and Lonie - I’d be concerned about our ground balls.

[saynta]

Well said BM. In the game thread against the Toasters, there were several calls to delist both Seb and Lonie.

Same every year, that there must be a player for SS to vent their spleen on.
Funny thing , There were calls to delist or trade Dunstan all last year. Now he is a favourite to replace someone in the side. Something that I also have been guilty of but for which I make no apology.

[Vortex]

Did Ratts praise Lonie after the game? Can anyone confirm?

[CQ SAINT]

is Bytel good to go after the head knock?

It would be hard to stop him after he went back on.

[Scollop]

Did Ratts praise Lonie after the game? Can anyone confirm?

The coaches after match press conferences are readily available online

From what I recall the coach didn’t single out Lonie and there wasn’t a question from the journos that specifically referenced Lonie. Ratts was asked a question about pressure in the forward line or the journos talked about the pressure in general and Ratts said the names Butler, Higgins and Lonie and said the pressure from them as a collective was good.

[Impatient Sainter]

Agree with skeptic on Lonie. He tries hard but his weaknesses out weigh his strengths IMO.

[Scollop]

You don’t think we have whipping boys?!

Fair dinkum, Seb Ross has won 2 B&Fs and he’s still the one we want out of the side!!!

Lonie has one quiet game (was one of the better players in the debacle vs Essendon)

And he doesn’t just get questioned - we want him gone!!!
For a slow mid - Dunstan?? Go figure???

We have a long and proud tradition on SS of zeroing in on a player, waiting and watching for their every fault and venting our spleens on this very forum!!

Read the match day threads FFS!!!

Lonie has long been a whipping boy, generally due to his size... which means FA!
He even gets compared to Caleb Daniel, who is also a small, but plays a completely different position??

Speaking of short
Brent Harvey, Sam Mitchell, Dane Zorko, Rory Laird, Marc Murphy just to name a few who were short, but effective.
In the land of Giant midfielders 190+
Two recent Brownlow medallists are 178cm

Lonie at 174 is short, but really, you need small forwards to be good at ground level and generally speaking, shorter players are better at ground level

We have two talks
King 202
Resting Ruck

1 medium
Membrey 188

Three small
Butler 182
Higgins 178
Lonie 174

Good mix IMO

If we say, swapped Battle and Lonie - I’d be concerned about our ground balls.

Couple of things.

Seb is a whipping boy because his numerous and sometimes insignificant disposal count is valued more than contested possessions or contested marks or match winning inspirational goals from other players. I am so sick of tv or radio footy commentators spewing out statistics just before the final quarter and telling us how good someone played based on a possession count.

It’s the same reason that many footy purists don’t value the Brownlow medal these days

I value 4-5 contested marks from RoMa more than 15-20 short kicks or handballs from a mid

Do you? Sure it depends on the specific moment in a match and the chain of possessions before and after

Who inspires the team? Marshall or Seb?

We’ve been through this before, but have a look specifically at the game on the weekend. The coaches gave Marshall votes. Why?

Seb has earnt his success through hard work and no one can take that away from him, but we’re allowed to have an opinion aren’t we?

Seb shouldn’t have won the B&F in 2017 imo and was lucky to win again in 2019

Robbo was better overall imo and more of an influence to team success in 2017

Marshall was more of an influence to team success in 2019. This is just my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

As far as Lonie is concerned, it’s not his size that is the issue. It’s his inability to stick tackles and his wastefulenss.

Size is not an issue as far as our talls ability to win contested ground ball. Skunk and Winx are elite below their knees imo

I think King is brilliant with the loose ground ball. Max's pressure and tackling were good.

King is also quick, so even though he's 6' 10" he showed he can 'play like a small', so Lonie goes out for mine

Butler and Billings showed good form and were brilliant with crumbing goals

Add Snags and add the agile and fast King and there's no room for Lonie imo

[skeptic]

He’s kicked 2 goals and none in the last three matches
8 touches vs Melbourne
11 vs GWS - one miracle goal and one that he took advantage
13 touches vs WCE, not overly effective

His game vs Essendon got 17 touches in a 75 point drubbing. 1 tackle, no goals - don’t think anybody was particularly effective that game minus the usuals

Point here is that like Kent, his game is heavily dependent on getting on the end of plays to kick goals. Close check him and he generally gets frozen out.
Size is important because he gets too easily pushed off the ball to scavenge goals out of packs.

2 goals in four games for a small forward

I’ve yet to here one convincing argument as to why we weren’t better off playing Bytel in Lonie’s place after rd2 (or Butler after rd1) and have Steele, Crouch and Billings sit in the pocket for patches on end.

[Devilhead]

Mason Wood has kicked more of his career goals against the Tigers than any other side

Is it worth playing him over Lonie in this match?

Gives us an extra mobile marking tall - alongside Membrey, King and resting ruck

[B.M]

And my point is proven!!!