Saints coaching merry - go - round

[Saintmike65]

I've always said, supporting St. Kilda is a character builder!
Wins few and far between, one solitary premiership in 140 plus years out of at least 8 grand final appearances.
It's staggering that we've had 46 coaches in that time, with Alan Richardson the second longest serving coach in our history...UNBELIEVABLE.
This brings us to the here and now...Brett Ratten.
Here is a guy that we should surely have as our coach for many years to come.
He has integrity, empathy, competitive drive, a people person, good communicator with the media, friendly to supporters, and popular with the players.
He has become the cornerstone of our footy club and I doubt we would've got the quality players & support staff to the club if not for him.
I heard only yesterday that several player managers have contacted the club, keen to get their players to the Saints because they want to play under Ratts.
If we are to get that elusive second flag, it will likely be Ratts that guides us to it.

[The Billings Method]

Ratten and Lethlean are the best recruits we've jagged since Roo.

[B.M]

We haven’t achieved anything yet

If we play finals this season with a difficult draw it will be a good effort.

I’ll wait until we play in Preliminary Finals and Grand Finals before proclaiming our coaching staff as being great

Ross Lyon and GT both took us deep.

[The_Dud]

That stat about Richo is an embarrassment.

[B.M]

What stat?

[B.M]

Oh, that he is the second longest?

Well he took over in the time of a rebuild, we traded out champions and went after High DPs

Then after 3 or so years we showed improvement from near last to about 9th to 12th for a couple of years in 16/17.

When some of our ageing stars retired Roo, Dempster, Montagna our High DPS from 13/14/15 didn’t come on as expected or had career killing injuries McCartin, Goddard, Stevens, Roberton
That set us right back


We then figured out that there is better ways to rebuild a list and brought in several players and still used high DPs on Coffield Clark and King who have turned out to be very good players. Add Marshall, Paton and Wilkie as late selections/Rookies
We have got a lot right as far as recruiting goes

We have added
Kent, Hannebery, Ryder, Howard, Butler, Hill, Jones
Now Higgins, Crouch, Frawley, McKernan, Wood

Do you think we are a better list now or 2018?

[The_Dud]

Beginning your career by botching the best draft hand we’d had in a while is not a good start.

Showed a little promise but then became quite apparent he wasn’t the man for the job, was kept around a year and a half longer than he should have been, probably mostly down to a terrible contract extension.

Bizarre selections, terrible player development, refusal to address key deficiencies, inability to motivate, the list goes on.

[B.M]

Reality is

It was a s*** list with key injuries. As the old saying goes

Can’t turn s*** into strawberry jam

Let’s see how Hawthorn go this year with the best coach in the modern era?!

There is no doubt we have got a lot right since 2017
Including the recruiting dept, fitness dept, coaching dept and most importantly the list rebuild, which has been significant.

Interesting that Adam Kingsley was in charge of both the previous StK midfield which struggled and last season at Richmond.
Amazing how Martin, Cotchin and Edwards can make a coach look better than Ross, Steven and Dunstan!

[axcellence]

Richo was the 45th... clearly that number is cursed!

[The_Dud]

Continually picking blokes like Longer and Newnes was Richo.

Playing blokes out of position like Acres in the ruck was Richo.

Refusing to legitimately try fix the single biggest factor that cost us games, goal kicking, was Richo.

That’s just off the top of my head, injuries didn’t play a part in those constant mistakes.

[SaintPav]

Beginning your career by botching the best draft hand we’d had in a while is not a good start.

Showed a little promise but then became quite apparent he wasn’t the man for the job, was kept around a year and a half longer than he should have been, probably mostly down to a terrible contract extension.

Bizarre selections, terrible player development, refusal to address key deficiencies, inability to motivate, the list goes on.

Poor training standards too I heard. Very disorganised. It was left to the development coaches who had no idea apparently.

[SaintPav]

I've always said, supporting St. Kilda is a character builder!
Wins few and far between, one solitary premiership in 140 plus years out of at least 8 grand final appearances.
It's staggering that we've had 46 coaches in that time, with Alan Richardson the second longest serving coach in our history...UNBELIEVABLE.
This brings us to the here and now...Brett Ratten.
Here is a guy that we should surely have as our coach for many years to come.
He has integrity, empathy, competitive drive, a people person, good communicator with the media, friendly to supporters, and popular with the players.
He has become the cornerstone of our footy club and I doubt we would've got the quality players & support staff to the club if not for him.
I heard only yesterday that several player managers have contacted the club, keen to get their players to the Saints because they want to play under Ratts.
If we are to get that elusive second flag, it will likely be Ratts that guides us to it.

I wonder which players want to come to us?

[B.M]

Look, I think it was definitely time for AR to go, results were just not there regardless of circumstances.

On Longer
When Hickey was injured, what better option was there? Are you blaming the recruiting dept for recruiting him?

On Newnes
Newnes was fantastic in 15 & 16 as a hard running wingman and occasional HB. His regression started when he took on the role of defensive forward. Maybe he was doing his defensive job, but his numbers definitely fell away. He is still playing, what seems to be pretty good footy. Who should have been selected instead of Newnes?

Goal Kicking
How many goals did AR miss? Maybe those missed goals cost him his coaching job? At 45% our conversation was the worst in the AFL for 4 years! It was clearly identified and a person was employed to work on it, and nothing changed.
That goal kicking probably cost 2 games a year? Maybe we should have played finals in 16?
I don’t think a senior AFL coach is employed to teach fundamental skills to his players?! They are recruited as elite talent already, they have development coaches for this reason.

Senior coaches coordinate a coaching team that prepares a team to play AFL footy.

All teams have
Senior Coaching groups
Fitness staff
Development staff
Specialist coaches
Recruiting staff

Each responsible for their areas.

[Vortex]

Reality is

It was a s*** list with key injuries. As the old saying goes

Can’t turn s*** into strawberry jam

Let’s see how Hawthorn go this year with the best coach in the modern era?!

There is no doubt we have got a lot right since 2017
Including the recruiting dept, fitness dept, coaching dept and most importantly the list rebuild, which has been significant.

Interesting that Adam Kingsley was in charge of both the previous StK midfield which struggled and last season at Richmond.
Amazing how Martin, Cotchin and Edwards can make a coach look better than Ross, Steven and Dunstan!

Great illustration of the importance of a coach BM.

Didn't the coach who last delivered us a flag freely admit he was nothing without talent at his disposal and I'm fairly certain there are other VFL/AFL coaches who have famously said similar things about the qualtiy of cattle at a coach's disposal and the ability or inability to win flags without decent cattle.

Being a coach at a "destination" club also helps considerably with acquisition of said class cattle.

How will Clarko go with attracting players to Hawthorn at the end of 2021 if they win the wooden spoon as predicted and are officially in a major rebuild.

[B.M]

I think they are important, but not as important as the players, even the recruiting staff and fitness staff are similarly important when it comes to success

Who gets the credit for 2020

Players?

Ratten, Gallagher, Toce. Wallis, Hornsby, Rath, Roughead, Allen??

My belief
It is credited to all of them. Ratten is one part of the equation.

[Vortex]

I think they are important, but not as important as the players, even the recruiting staff and fitness staff are similarly important when it comes to success

Who gets the credit for 2020

Players?

Ratten, Gallagher, Toce. Wallis, Hornsby, Rath, Roughead, Allen??

My belief
It is credited to all of them. Ratten is one part of the equation.

Couldn't agree more. Anyone who has been involved at a sporting club that has won ultimate success understands it is the sum of all parts.

[The_Dud]

Look, I think it was definitely time for AR to go, results were just not there regardless of circumstances.

On Longer
When Hickey was injured, what better option was there? Are you blaming the recruiting dept for recruiting him?

On Newnes
Newnes was fantastic in 15 & 16 as a hard running wingman and occasional HB. His regression started when he took on the role of defensive forward. Maybe he was doing his defensive job, but his numbers definitely fell away. He is still playing, what seems to be pretty good footy. Who should have been selected instead of Newnes?

Goal Kicking
How many goals did AR miss? Maybe those missed goals cost him his coaching job? At 45% our conversation was the worst in the AFL for 4 years! It was clearly identified and a person was employed to work on it, and nothing changed.
That goal kicking probably cost 2 games a year? Maybe we should have played finals in 16?
I don’t think a senior AFL coach is employed to teach fundamental skills to his players?! They are recruited as elite talent already, they have development coaches for this reason.

Senior coaches coordinate a coaching team that prepares a team to play AFL footy.

All teams have
Senior Coaching groups
Fitness staff
Development staff
Specialist coaches
Recruiting staff

Each responsible for their areas.

I can’t remember exact specifics, but...

Longer was picked over a fit Hickey numerous times. I think they were both picked over Marshall early too? Marshall only got his shot out of necessity, which was another clear oversight.

Newnes was good early in his career, but clearly dropped off and was living off that old rep for quite some time. Not sure he’s setting the world on fire at Carlton either?

The buck stops with the senior coach, he runs the show. Goal kicking was clearly our biggest issue (7.13 anyone?) I would say cost us probably more than 2 games a year. How much time was put into it? Hiring a part time commentator to help?? I remember Fev saying during his career he would have something like 500 shots a week. How many were our blokes having? I would suggest it should have been 500 at a minimum considering how bad we were, tell the physios to go stuff themselves.

[samuraisaint]

We haven’t achieved anything yet

If we play finals this season with a difficult draw it will be a good effort.

I’ll wait until we play in Preliminary Finals and Grand Finals before proclaiming our coaching staff as being great

Ross Lyon and GT both took us deep.

Stan and Kenny Sheldon weren't slouches either.

[B.M]

Do you honestly believe they weren’t working on goal kicking?

I watched them train, between each drill they had shots at goal.
Set shots, snaps, on the run
End of training, more goal kicking!

I’m sure they were converting above 45% at training, which means FA!

Goal kicking is just as mental as physical so replication of game day pressure is difficult

[CQ SAINT]

Do you honestly believe they weren’t working on goal kicking?

I watched them train, between each drill they had shots at goal.
Set shots, snaps, on the run
End of training, more goal kicking!

I’m sure they were converting above 45% at training, which means FA!

Goal kicking is just as mental as physical so replication of game day pressure is difficult

Our great leader, the Captain, had a bit to say to AR about his negativity, his language and his leadership. Clearly he was not the man to work on the mental capacities of the players who were obviously just as confused about selection, game plan and the communication between coach and players as the viewing public were.

We've seen a bit of a change with Ratten havent we.

[Impatient Sainter]

That stat about Richo is an embarrassment.

Yep a good bloke but a very ordinary coach & couldnt attract quality recruits...

[The Billings Method]

We haven’t achieved anything yet

If we play finals this season with a difficult draw it will be a good effort.

I’ll wait until we play in Preliminary Finals and Grand Finals before proclaiming our coaching staff as being great

Ross Lyon and GT both took us deep.

Stan and Kenny Sheldon weren't slouches either.

Whereas Richo took us nowhere. What an irony that one of the biggest coaching spuds got to coach us longer than all but the legendary Yabbie.

[B.M]

Not sure Norm Smith would’ve taken that list anywhere?!

Biggest change
A third of the team of new players and the development of quality young players.

Don’t get me wrong, I think BR is doing well. But unlike most, I don’t think the results are completely down to the coach.

I can think of plenty of examples of a proven coach going to a poor list and achieving nothing
Barassi- Melbourne
Walls - Brisbane
Jeans - Richmond
Blight - St Kilda
Pagan - Carlton
Sheedy - GWS
Malthouse - Carlton
Roos - Melbourne

On the flip side
Average coaches coaching successful teams
Jewell - Richmond
Joyce - Hawthorn
Ayres - Geelong
Scott - Geelong

I don’t think at any stage from 2013-2019 did we have a top 8 list
2016 we finished 9th and that result was probably overachieving

[The_Dud]

Do you honestly believe they weren’t working on goal kicking?

I watched them train, between each drill they had shots at goal.
Set shots, snaps, on the run
End of training, more goal kicking!

I’m sure they were converting above 45% at training, which means FA!

Goal kicking is just as mental as physical so replication of game day pressure is difficult

I 100% believe we weren’t working on it enough, and I believe the results spoke for themselves.

Dixon as goal kicking coach?? Bloke would laugh about us missing goals during his commentary gigs!

And of course all aspects of a club come together to make it successful, but the head coach sets the direction.

[B.M]

What does Lethlean do then

And Rath??