Any news on Paddy Mac?

[shanegrambeau]

And the boom in women's footy will surely help footy.

Hope so.

And finally St Kilda's triple flags on '21, '22 and '23 will attract global interest!

Go Saints!

[WellardSaint]

mums allowing their kids to play the sport
is probably where its at

That will ultimately decide the issue. It's why soccer is gaining in popularity in the US and A and here in Oz. It is perceived as a "safer" game.

Not sure that's the case with all the heading that goes on at training and otherwise, but just at the minute it is the mothers' game of choice.

There's been cases of CTE identified in some soccer players who have passed away.

[Joffa Burns]

mums allowing their kids to play the sport
is probably where its at

That will ultimately decide the issue. It's why soccer is gaining in popularity in the US and A and here in Oz. It is perceived as a "safer" game.

Not sure that's the case with all the heading that goes on at training and otherwise, but just at the minute it is the mothers' game of choice.

There's been cases of CTE identified in some soccer players who have passed away.

As a layman I would think that the medical profession will find additional testing mechanisms to detect CTE while patients are living (not predominately postmortem as current) and will develop drugs to assist victims quality of life. I would be surprised if there is not a genetic link that predisposes one to this condition, but again this is opinion not based on any fact.

It would also be interesting to understand the prevalence of CTE in the wider society and if there are other triggers for this condition.

What appears certain at this point in time is that repeated blows to the head and numerous concussions can lead to CTE and the effects on the individual are dramatic.

Will this affect the long term future of AFL?

I think rules will change to further protect the head and protocols surrounding concussion will continue to tighten, I also believe a regimented testing procedure will be implemented (once this is defined) and players showing signs will be forcefully retired with a pension, so some sort of fund is likely.

I think combat sports have a far greater risk and would be the prime focus in the short to medium term.

[B.M]

You sign up to play any contact sports, there is always a risk of a head knock.

What are we to do?

Ban contact??

We can tighten up the protocols all we like, that doesn’t stop the head knock, which actually does the damage.

And no matter how hard you try, you can never stop them happening in contact sport. Collisions occur.

It’s a choice to play. The onus is on the individual.

[Yorkeys]

Lynch's cowardly hit on Paton that opened the back of his head and saw him subbed out with concussion was a shocker that was let through to the keeper. Lynch ( & everyone but Tiger supporters and the umps) knew he was not in position to mark at the last so he still followed through to hit Paton on the head with a sharp object. Not saying he shouldn't have barreled him in the pack situation but a deliberate head hit, really you big ****. If the AFL were serious about it the rules would allow a brave guy like Paton to stand his ground without the certainty of getting a cowards elbow to the head. The game is caught not knowing how to deal with big predators like Lynch playing for a very very influential club. Imagine if Marshall put Dusty out of a big game with concussion in the course of a marking contest - not that Dusty does pack marks so much; it would not be all quiet on the western front. News on Paddy is AFL really don't have a coherent plan to mitigate the effects of head knocks before the event and "awkward" players in big clubs get the benefit. (Disclosure, not a fan of Lynch or Tigers so views slightly embellished with emotion - but still Paton's head was a mess and he is becoming a key piece of the puzzle for us).

[B.M]

Agree Lynch is wannabe hard man

But it’s a big boys game, played mostly by tough men. If they back into a pack, they expect to get crunched. It’s the price you pay.
Team mates would have loved it, and Paton earned respect

Lynch is as weak as piss, a his little dog acts are far from scary. He’s 199cm and when he has to stand under the ball and compete, he shirks. For a big man he takes FA contested marks (far less than King) he prefers to hit from behind or behind the play.

[Sanctorum]

Times have certainly changed, it wasn't all that long ago that TV shows like "Bounce" on FoxFooty used to show highlight reels of fullbacks, including our beloved Spud, giving forwards a biff behind the ears when going for a mark, causing much mirth...not sure if that is now considered humorous.

Wearing protective headgear is obviously one way to lessen the impact of head knocks, although even in the gentlemanly game of cricket helmets are not much help when the ball hits the head at 140+kph.

That said, competitive contact sports of any description have always involved an element of physical risk of serious injury and I can't see that being curtailed, nor should it, that's life!

I mean, you're hardly going to stop riding your bike in the off-chance that you'll fall off or get run over by a truck...

[Joffa Burns]

Agree Lynch is wannabe hard man

But it’s a big boys game, played mostly by tough men. If they back into a pack, they expect to get crunched. It’s the price you pay.
Team mates would have loved it, and Paton earned respect

Lynch is as weak as piss, a his little dog acts are far from scary. He’s 199cm and when he has to stand under the ball and compete, he shirks. For a big man he takes FA contested marks (far less than King) he prefers to hit from behind or behind the play.

I don't call anyone who steps onto the AFL field weak, however I found Tom Lynch's pseudo tough guy acts on the field to be quite pathetic for a guy of his size. Would he have put the knee on Barry Hall like he did on Dougal Howard?

I know Dimma supports him publicly, but Dimma was a seriously tough & courageous player and I'd be surprised if he didn't tell him internally to stop being a dick head and attack the ball.

[shanegrambeau]

Story in the New York Bloody Times! No less...

About AFL and CTE...


The Concussion Crisis in Australian Rules Football
It’s a brutal game, and retired players are suffering the consequences of hits to the head. But the league there is following a familiar playbook, one used by the N.F.L.

Check it out if u haven’t seen it....

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/spor ... sions.html


I argue the risk comes from, Mums and Local Councils banning contact sports at parks, (Or the game evolves to unrecognizable form)

I imagine very few sane adults will suddenly decide, at the age of 21, to take up Aussie Rules,. But maybe that’s completely wrong. Those on the outside, think it’s a violent sport in my experience.

[shanegrambeau]

And then Guardian in the UK say helmets are rubbish and a commercial ploy used by the NFL?

Wow... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ditch-them

[B.M]

Those who grew up with AFL in their blood, will always choose to play the game, unless they are no good at sport, in which case they’ll just end up supporting.

If it’s in the families blood, they are always keen for their kids to play.

I have a son who plays u14s and the amount of parental support is amazing. And they all want their kids to go hard for the footy, which can put them in harms way, but it is an accepted part of the game.

Cricket is the same. I obviously am aware that Phillip Hughes died batting and Pucovski has been concussed multiple times
Yet we still do bumper training on the bowling machine playing the hook and pull, and been hit multiple times.

Thing is, if you play a sport where there can be contact, you should expect it. Otherwise don’t play.

With AFL players, physical contact is part of their job, and injuries happen as a result. That’s the job!

Truck drivers can get involved in accidents
Concreters stuff their backs
Electricians can get a zap
Builders can have accidents
Pedestrians can get run over
And so on

Life has its risks, as do occupations.

[shanegrambeau]

Musing ...

St Kilda did well to de-list Paddy from a legal standpoint....and even when on the list, by not playing him, on the grounds of - get this - he is t good enough, NOT due to his concussion.

That way, they cannot be sued for damages as easily. (Loss of income due to not providing duty of care and a safe working environment)

It is important for St Kilda to emphasize that Paddy just isn’t good enough from a footy perspective, not that he is a liability because of his concussion risks.

[Joffa Burns]

Musing ...

St Kilda did well to de-list Paddy from a legal standpoint....and even when on the list, by not playing him, on the grounds of - get this - he is t good enough, NOT due to his concussion.

That way, they cannot be sued for damages as easily. (Loss of income due to not providing duty of care and a safe working environment)

It is important for St Kilda to emphasize that Paddy just isn’t good enough from a footy perspective, not that he is a liability because of his concussion risks.

And it would be very difficult for Paddy to argue St Kilda’s position that he was in fact good enough to be a regular fixture in the team.

[Sanctorum]

The AFL Players Association have this matter in hand, reported in The Age on 15/10/2020.

It should be noted that the new insurance policy is effective only from 1 December 2020, and not retrospective, which means players like Paddy McCartin will need to look at other legal avenues if they wish to claim compensation:

"Players who suffer the effects of concussion in the future will be covered by insurance after the AFL Players' Association signed with a new total and permanent disability and death insurance provider.

Players were informed on Thursday of the AFLPA's decision which would see them eligible to lodge claims for concussion diagnosed after December 1 that causes head trauma or cognitive loss.

The new provider, One Path, which is owned by Zurich would assess each instance on a case by case basis however the Players' Association says retrospective cases will not be assessed.

Players will still be able to seek individual coverage outside the policy if they chose to pursue their own arrangements with the AFLPA saying the new policy is the best available for group coverage.

Concussion remains a significant issue in the game with the AFL having to make many rule adjustments in the past decade to protect the head and establish return to play protocols for players in an attempt to reduce risk they will suffer ongoing effects from head knocks.

The number of players retiring due to concussion has accelerated in the past decade with former greats Graham 'Polly' Farmer and Danny Frawley diagnosed with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) after their brains were examined following their death.

Last month former North Melbourne and Melbourne high flier Shaun Smith received a $1.4 million payout after insurance company MLC honoured his claim made after he received a medical report that showed he had suffered total and permanent disablement due to "brain injuries resulting from head knocks".

His outcome was achieved after respected concussion advocate Peter Jess proved the insurance policy Smith took out midway through his career covered him for such trauma.

Jess has long advocated that AFL players should be covered for injury under a workers compensation telling The Age last month the clubs and the league were abrogating their duty of care because AFL players had to finance their own injury compensation fund through the collective bargaining agreement.
However sources are not optimistic that governments will include AFL players under such legislation.

Under this process players can obtain limited financial compensation for a career-ending injury with concussion included.

The new insurance provider replaces Resolution Life with the deal signed after a tender process involving super provider AMP and AFL player representatives occurred where the previous arrangement was reviewed with many AFL player agents considering it virtually impossible for the modern player to get individual insurance coverage to compensate a player who suffers permanent and total disability through concussion."

[shanegrambeau]

Nice post Santorum and I agree Joffa...for sure..

What a Mad World we live in, where we talk about a player we love, a team we love, and a culture we are part of, including its legal mechanisms (we are notionally prepared to die for) - we muse in a matter of fact way, like they are all adversaries..

I’m not religious but the hole being left in its wake is being filled by the most monstrous contraptions that are right at the bottom, the pits of slime and contempt.

[Scollop]

Nice post Santorum and I agree Joffa...for sure..

What a Mad World we live in, where we talk about a player we love, a team we love, and a culture we are part of, including its legal mechanisms (we are notionally prepared to die for) - we muse in a matter of fact way, like they are all adversaries..

I’m not religious but the hole being left in its wake is being filled by the most monstrous contraptions that are right at the bottom, the pits of slime and contempt.

Sounds like a guilt trip you need to deal with

Do you eat smoked and preserved meats? I hear they are a high cancer risk. Hotdogs and ham and cheese toasties should be off your diet list

Do you drive a car? STOP! Cars are involved in accidents that kill people

You should probably start growing all your own produce too.

All the products we buy at the supermarket have been delivered by trucks and most of them run on diesel fuel. Apart from the known and accepted health affects ( https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ancer.html ) ...there are also are observations supporting the hypothesis that diesel exhaust is one important factor contributing to the allergy pandemic. For example, in many experimental systems, diesel exhaust particles can be shown to act as adjuvants to allergen and hence increase the sensitization response.

[shanegrambeau]

Nice post Santorum and I agree Joffa...for sure..

What a Mad World we live in, where we talk about a player we love, a team we love, and a culture we are part of, including its legal mechanisms (we are notionally prepared to die for) - we muse in a matter of fact way, like they are all adversaries..

I’m not religious but the hole being left in its wake is being filled by the most monstrous contraptions that are right at the bottom, the pits of slime and contempt.

Sounds like a guilt trip you need to deal with

Do you eat smoked and preserved meats? I hear they are a high cancer risk. Hotdogs and ham and cheese toasties should be off your diet list

Do you drive a car? STOP! Cars are involved in accidents that kill people

You should probably start growing all your own produce too.

All the products we buy at the supermarket have been delivered by trucks and most of them run on diesel fuel. Apart from the known and accepted health affects ( https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ancer.html ) ...there are also are observations supporting the hypothesis that diesel exhaust is one important factor contributing to the allergy pandemic. For example, in many experimental systems, diesel exhaust particles can be shown to act as adjuvants to allergen and hence increase the sensitization response.

oh my...

you have no idea...lucky for you, i would say!

Luckily, I have a shaky sense of self, so only on Tuesdays I feel this way...oh..wait, is it Monday? Geez....

Turning of circles into squares is a part of life now..I have to fill out my 'Achievement and Self-Evaluation' forms in March. A committee will peruse through it , giving me points for this and that, and come up with a grade, from A-D. If I get D, I lose my job at the end of the year. If I get C, I have one year to redeem myself. Two successive Cs mean non-renewel of contract at the expiry of current contract. There are no managers. Points are awarded for things like writing a so-called 'Academic Paper' or volunteering at a local kindergarten.

So various criteria will be made for these concussion insurance plans. Various boxes will be ticked. Players will have to report symptoms and discussions with managers and lawyers will take place - some above and some below the boardwalk.
How insurance will work will be interesting.

[B.M]

How can a work place be a ‘safe workplace’ if that work place is a high impact collision sport?!

What a load of s***!

Choose to play, if you get injured too bad! That’s the game!!!

Otherwise anyone who has any degenerative injury caused by playing could sue.

Knees, back, shoulders, ankles ... where does it end?

Fact is, it isn’t a ‘safe’ workplace. You have power athletes hitting at high velocity.
Don’t want to get an injury, try accounting.

[shanegrambeau]

How can a work place be a ‘safe workplace’ if that work place is a high impact collision sport?!

What a load of s***!

Choose to play, if you get injured too bad! That’s the game!!!

Otherwise anyone who has any degenerative injury caused by playing could sue.

Knees, back, shoulders, ankles ... where does it end?

Fact is, it isn’t a ‘safe’ workplace. You have power athletes hitting at high velocity.
Don’t want to get an injury, try accounting.

Exactly...but, it doesn't matter.

Those sentiments go nowhere in court.
Read this..https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/ar ... ue/2014-07

AMA Journal of Ethics: 'Concussion-Relted Litigation against the National Football League'

It sounds patronizing...to say...but it doesn't matter one iota about your, 'choose to play, wear the consequences' point.

Where does it end?....= It ends with a s*** load of money being paid to lawyers - and they will get their money. It ends with more and more cases....media stories...more worried mother's etc.,

Fact is 'no safe' workplace? = BS.... The courts will determine that..it doesn't matter what the 'fact' is. It only matters what, 'facts' were presented and in what order and some clever dicks are out there making a living - a very nice one - from delivering that ala carte dish to the table with a silver spoon.

[B.M]

Has there ever been a successful court case from injury suffered through AFL/VFL?

What if someone in a local league gets injured??

[shanegrambeau]

Has there ever been a successful court case from injury suffered through AFL/VFL?

What if someone in a local league gets injured??

This is Vic Country's statement 2014 see bit about Duty of Care
https://www.aflvic.com.au/wp-content/up ... -Final.pdf

THese guys are waiting for you...and plenty more

https://www.stewartslaw.com/sports-rela ... -injuries/

[CarlD]

News from the AFL (possibly)

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-t ... 4673ddb22f

[B.M]

Well

I have a completely f***ed

Back
Ankle
Knee
And have been concussed half a dozen times

So I’m going to sue someone because I chose to play footy and got injured. Great!

[shanegrambeau]

Well

I have a completely f***ed

Back
Ankle
Knee
And have been concussed half a dozen times

So I’m going to sue someone because I chose to play footy and got injured. Great!

Well, sounds tough.
Can I ask you this?

Imagining that you could have it all over again, and you were 11 years old today, and you could clearly see your grand father with these ailments that he attributed to footy.

Would you change anything? Would you still play?

I guess yes..but maybe you have a different view..or perhaps its a 'qualified Yes'

One more thing.

About all this legal mumbo jumbo that I spouted.
If there is ever a big case in Australia there will be huge implications, but importantly, there doesn't have to be. All it needs, is for us all to realise that potentially,such a case could happen. That is enough for the wheels to start turning. I notice the AFL, just days ago, have changed their rules again..for a 11 days mandatory break following concussion, to eliminate the possibility that a Thursday night knock out won't play Sunday twilight the following week.

But the papers went straight to Latrobe uni (or whatever uni) to get a contrary view to publish from a professor.. They were duly satisfied and quoted Professor X saying 11 days isn't enough, we need a month.

That is the climate now. The race is on.

[Scollop]

Most of us are just rambling on pointlessly with many of the posts made in this thread.

In my opinion it’s difficult trying to discuss something which involves both legal arguments and complex medical issues (especially in a field where the health experts are still learning about trauma to the brain) unless you are qualified to do so.

Sure you can have an opinion based on evidence before you and we can speculate on possible ramifications, but seriously, the AFL is a multi billion dollar industry that will find ways to manage this and other health concerns within the game. Aussie rules is part of our DNA and it’s not going to crumble because of CTE