The Seb Ross discussions

[The_Dud]

Only thing wrong with these statements is that Seb won two TB awards and was runner up in a third whilst the team was improving and on the rise, not when it was stagnating or going backwards as when Jack won his 4.

Lets call a spade a f****** shovel for a change.

Sebb is constantly put down on this forum or undervalued by some and his deeds only receive faint praise if they are mentioned at all.

Voting in SS awards as opposed to the real votes handed out by the saints coaches confirm my views. Seb couldn't buy a vote from some guys this year even when he was clearly in the best 5 players on the ground.

On the other hand Sebb was in the top ten in the TB award.

Seb is one of the finest players to don R W & B in the past decade and attempts to down play his achievements are just pathetic.

I recognised Seb's skills early on especially his quick hands sand ball winning ability at a time others wanted to trade him to the f****** bombers ffs, solely because his uncle and cousin played there. How f****** pathetic.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's the same few who are now posting that Seb is finished or at least will struggle to get a game in 2021 as he is not top 22. What utter bulls***.

The same posters, I am wiling to bet would deny that Seb was our best player in the last game we played in 2020. I am also willing to bet that Ratts hasn't forgotten and that Seb will be amongst the first half dozen picked in the first game next year.

I can only f****** hope the players don't read the negative crap posted on here at times.

And some posters undeservedly heap praise on players purely because they lack the ability to fairly criticise players through some sort of misguided loyalty.

Seb only finished in the top 10 of the b&f because other players missed large chunks of the season.

I agree Steven was overrated, but on his day was a match winner and much better than Seb could ever hope to be.

Most criticism of Seb on here is bang on. He doesn’t have elite hand or foot skills, is not fast, isn’t a clearance machine, and doesn’t hit the scoreboard.

He’s not the kind of player to lead a team to a premiership, he is depth in a good team at best.

[saynta]

Only thing wrong with these statements is that Seb won two TB awards and was runner up in a third whilst the team was improving and on the rise, not when it was stagnating or going backwards as when Jack won his 4.

Lets call a spade a f****** shovel for a change.

Sebb is constantly put down on this forum or undervalued by some and his deeds only receive faint praise if they are mentioned at all.

Voting in SS awards as opposed to the real votes handed out by the saints coaches confirm my views. Seb couldn't buy a vote from some guys this year even when he was clearly in the best 5 players on the ground.

On the other hand Sebb was in the top ten in the TB award.

Seb is one of the finest players to don R W & B in the past decade and attempts to down play his achievements are just pathetic.

I recognised Seb's skills early on especially his quick hands sand ball winning ability at a time others wanted to trade him to the f****** bombers ffs, solely because his uncle and cousin played there. How f****** pathetic.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's the same few who are now posting that Seb is finished or at least will struggle to get a game in 2021 as he is not top 22. What utter bulls***.

The same posters, I am wiling to bet would deny that Seb was our best player in the last game we played in 2020. I am also willing to bet that Ratts hasn't forgotten and that Seb will be amongst the first half dozen picked in the first game next year.

I can only f****** hope the players don't read the negative crap posted on here at times.

And some posters undeservedly heap praise on players purely because they lack the ability to fairly criticise players through some sort of misguided loyalty.

Seb only finished in the top 10 of the b&f because other players missed large chunks of the season.

I agree Steven was overrated, but on his day was a match winner and much better than Seb could ever hope to be.

Most criticism of Seb on here is bang on. He doesn’t have elite hand or foot skills, is not fast, isn’t a clearance machine, and doesn’t hit the scoreboard.

He’s not the kind of player to lead a team to a premiership, he is depth in a good team at best.

What utter unmitigated rubbish. As usual from you of course . You are one of the very negative nellies without a f****** clue that I was referring too.

Of course Seb has elite hand skills, not that I would expect you to acknowledge or even be aware of.

[Sanctorum]

Your admiration for and vehement defence of Seb Ross is commendable saynta, criticism of him obviously gets you fired up

I'm more than happy to remain open-minded on his status in the 2021 team but I honestly believe that if St Kilda are going to advance to top four next year he, as well as Jack Billing, will need to take their game to a much higher level.

As I've mentioned before, St Kilda's midfield has some real grunt now, and competition for spots is going to be fierce!

[Saintmike65]

Says something about our year.
Picking on old Sebby cause there are no other targets
Jack Newnes - gonezy, Magic Mav, gone etc.

How Kent escapes scrutiny flummoxes me...but then I realise there just isn’t any data from him to scrutinise. He simply doesn’t figure in the reels.

Who wants to bet? Who gets more games in ‘21?
Kent, Ross or Hanners?

Kent is another story, agree wholeheartedly but I think you'll find Kent will be a fringe player in 2021, Higgins, Gresham, and Butler will be our likely starting smalls.

[Saintmike65]

Zak Jones, Hunter Clark, Dan Hannebery, Brad Crouch, Jack Sinclair, maybe Billings, maybe Higgins- which one of those gets named as emergency to let Seb play?

Ross will likely be in the 22 round 1 and 2 due to crouch being unavailable...after that, who knows!!

[Vortex]

Your admiration for and vehement defence of Seb Ross is commendable saynta, criticism of him obviously gets you fired up

I'm more than happy to remain open-minded on his status in the 2021 team but I honestly believe that if St Kilda are going to advance to top four next year he, as well as Jack Billing, will need to take their game to a much higher level.

As I've mentioned before, St Kilda's midfield has some real grunt now, and competition for spots is going to be fierce!

Unless our recruiters can bring in midfield quality equal to or greater than players like Hanners, Crouch and Hill and hopefully Clark then you can bet your pension on the fact Sebby will remain in the midfield at somewhere between 4th to 6th. The only possible way Sebby can be knocked out of the team in 2021 is if players like Byrnes and Bytel turn into these super Judd-Dusty mystical types that we keep hearing about in the small internet enclaves, but the chances of that happening are highly unlikely in 2021.

Now if that does happen then fantastic, but what we don't won't to happen is for Byrnes or Bytel to knock Sebby out of the team in 2021 because he has regressed on his 2020 performance. However if that does happen then our top 4 aspirations will be in serious jeopardy, we need Sebby in 2021 more than we realise.

And if we don't recruit another A grade midfielder in 2021 or Byrnes and Bytel haven't delivered their mystical football greatness then Sebby will hopefully have had another good or better year than 2020.

The competition you speak of is only for the 4th to 6th best midfielder in our best 22. Currently Seb is very secure in those slots.

[Saintmike65]

Thank you for all the responses to my post, it certainly generated a lot of opinions, for and against, which is what I expected.
Hopefully, Seb will have a terrific season and make me eat my words, if not, perhaps free agency beckons for him.

[B.M]

I think I need to comment

First point
The B&Fs Seb Ross won are worthless because we were hopeless

He won in 2017 and 2019 where we won 11 & 9 games both times with a percentage of near 100. So whilst we weren’t contenders we were not terrible. It’s like he is the symbol of our mediocrity and we want some one to blame for poor seasons? Fact is he was our best performed player in those seasons, so possibly he wasn’t the problem, and a few underperformed players were?

Second Point
Seb should not have won in 2019
Well a panel of coaches (who possibly know more than supporters?) including Brett Ratten who was Rowan and Sebs line coach voted him as best. Even if he didn’t win, he’d have easily been runner up which is not bad.

Third Point
He is not at the level of other clubs mids and wouldn’t get a game in those teams. He is ineffective.
Well playing against those mids he has polled quite a few Brownlow votes (something other players haven’t done) which means he’s been in the best 3 players on the ground on numerous occasions. He averaged 30.1 possessions per game in 2017 which was up there with the LEAGUES best and was in the All Australian squad of 40 which puts him in good company.

Fact is
Since 2016 in a team that’s won
12 games he finished 6th in the Best and fairest
11 games he finished 1st
4.5 games he finished 2nd
9 games he finished 1st
12 games (19) he finished 10th (missed 2 games through injury)

So in that period of time, and yes at times we were ordinary, but Cleary he wasn’t. Surely he has performed well enough, not sure it’s his fault he’s been the best player in an average team. In my mind, other players were more the reason for our mediocrity.
He is no Superstar, no one suggests that, but to suggest he is not an AFL quality midfielder is so ridiculous it’s laughable.
He has played well as an AFL mid against other AFL mids for more than 5 years!

I like the way people remember
Jack Steven and Greg Burns
Maybe have a look at our ladder positions and W/L ratio when they won B&Fs?
And compare that to the commentary around Seb

To me
He is well below our obvious stars like Harvey, Burke, Winmar, Hayes, Dal, Goddard etc
Just below Steven, Ball, Thompson
But sits above guys like Powell, Armitage, Keough etc
Steel has overtaken him now too but he needs to maintain a standard for a number of years to get into the great category

So to put it bluntly
I am absolutely sick of Seb being potted by clueless fans and used as a whipping boy, when in reality he is regarded by the club as a key player and as a leader of the group!

Find a whipping boys that actually deserves disrespect

[saynta]

I think I need to comment

First point
The B&Fs Seb Ross won are worthless because we were hopeless

He won in 2017 and 2019 where we won 11 & 9 games both times with a percentage of near 100. So whilst we weren’t contenders we were not terrible. It’s like he is the symbol of our mediocrity and we want some one to blame for poor seasons? Fact is he was our best performed player in those seasons, so possibly he wasn’t the problem, and a few underperformed players were?

Second Point
Seb should not have won in 2019
Well a panel of coaches (who possibly know more than supporters?) including Brett Ratten who was Rowan and Sebs line coach voted him as best. Even if he didn’t win, he’d have easily been runner up which is not bad.

Third Point
He is not at the level of other clubs mids and wouldn’t get a game in those teams. He is ineffective.
Well playing against those mids he has polled quite a few Brownlow votes (something other players haven’t done) which means he’s been in the best 3 players on the ground on numerous occasions. He averaged 30.1 possessions per game in 2017 which was up there with the LEAGUES best and was in the All Australian squad of 40 which puts him in good company.

Fact is
Since 2016 in a team that’s won
12 games he finished 6th in the Best and fairest
11 games he finished 1st
4.5 games he finished 2nd
9 games he finished 1st
12 games (19) he finished 10th (missed 2 games through injury)

So in that period of time, and yes at times we were ordinary, but Cleary he wasn’t. Surely he has performed well enough, not sure it’s his fault he’s been the best player in an average team. In my mind, other players were more the reason for our mediocrity.
He is no Superstar, no one suggests that, but to suggest he is not an AFL quality midfielder is so ridiculous it’s laughable.
He has played well as an AFL mid against other AFL mids for more than 5 years!

I like the way people remember
Jack Steven and Greg Burns
Maybe have a look at our ladder positions and W/L ratio when they won B&Fs?
And compare that to the commentary around Seb

To me
He is well below our obvious stars like Harvey, Burke, Winmar, Hayes, Dal, Goddard etc
Just below Steven, Ball, Thompson
But sits above guys like Powell, Armitage, Keough etc
Steel has overtaken him now too but he needs to maintain a standard for a number of years to get into the great category

So to put it bluntly
I am absolutely sick of Seb being potted by clueless fans and used as a whipping boy, when in reality he is regarded by the club as a key player and as a leader of the group!

Find a whipping boys that actually deserves disrespect

Ah, finally. A post from someone sensible who I have come to respect for their footballing knowledge.

You put into written words what I have been struggling to say for weeks now. Thank you..

Pity you don't post more often.

[Scollop]

...

On August 20, 2016 he received the Ian Stewart Medal for best on ground in the Saint's Round 22 victory over Richmond

...

2016. Round 22

I’m bored and watching this match right now. It’s 3 quarter time and the Saints lead 5-10 to 3-9. I’m watching Seb closely. The commentators have mentioned his name several times in the first half and they have heaps of praise for his year so far. He has been unremarkable as far as his impact on this game but he could possibly have the most touches. He hasn’t been damaging and failed to impact when up forward or when he got a rare chance at a set shot from 40m out.

The match is a shocker. All the goals for both teams have come from turn overs. A couple of Sebs kicks missed their target but he’s not alone there. Our kicking efficiency is under 50%. Some of the Saints players handballs also not up to AFL standard. One of Seb’s handballs was over his shoulder, in the air to no one in particular.

The Tigers have put the cue in the rack for season 2016 and Dusty is planning his trip to Vegas. The Saints have a very very slim chance of making finals, so we have our best available 22 on the park including Joey and Roo and Shinner and Armo. Gilbo has been the best on ground so far ( for his ability to stop the opposition and for his intercept marking) with Robbo a close second ( for his ability to create attacking plays from the backline and create opportunities for i50’s and scoring chains). The Saints have been very good with their pressure and tackling.

Paddy played for a quarter and a smidgeon. He was actually doing ok and kicked two nice set shot goals, up until he stumbled into a Richmond players knee and broke his collar bone. I’m about to finish watching the last quarter, after I get a cuppa...

[Scollop]

Here is a description of the first five minutes with a focus on Sebs touches for the last quarter

His first possession is from a handball receive in our backline from a running Acres and he handballs straight back to Acres who kicks long to the wing. His second is a kick off the ground shortly after a spillage from the centre bounce ( they may count that as a clearance because I think it trickled over the centre square...unfortunately it went to the opposition). They do count kicks off the ground as a possession don't they? The Tigers move it forward a minute later and Seb is following the Tigers mids and tries to tackle Dusty (who is stationary btw) and Dusty has no problem dishing off to Lambert who handballs to Rioli who snaps a goal from 35 out.

Seb’s next possession is another centre clearance after the Rioli goal. This time the Tigers ruckman taps it straight to him. Seb runs a few steps clear and kicks it to centre half forward. Mind you this is on his preferred left foot, but the footy is a mung that barely goes 1 metre off the ground and it turns into a scrap at centre half forward. A few players try to get their hands clear but are unable to get time to dispose of the footy. Seb is back in there after several players fail to get a clearance. He picks up the loose footy ( that’s called a contested possession I believe) and immediately handballs it straight into the arms of Shane Edwards.

Now, I’ll be criticised for this, but fair dinkum!! This is all fact. Watch it for yourself. There’s another 2-3 touches for Sebby in the next couple of minutes and there’s already 8 or 9 touches in 5 minutes.

He certainly racked them up in that last quarter. He got an opportunity for another set shot on a bit of an angle, which was only 40 out and it was on his left foot but he was gun shy after the first effort. He chose to dish it off and it missed its target again. Overall he worked hard and he kicked truely a few times and even took a good mark in the backline with Dusty bearing down on him (luckily he ignored the footsteps on that occasion) but as I said his whole game was unremarkable.

The Saints won 7-13 to Richmond 6-10. At the end of the game you look at the stat sheet and you have to award some votes. You look at the winning team and the possession getters and guess who sits on top? You guessed it...Chalk that down in the history books as Seb Ross ‘best on ground’.

https://www.saints.com.au/news/337169/m ... v-richmond

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/58274

The opening line from the above link:

“ There are some AFL matches that are so thrilling and full of highlights, they are destined to live forever in the memories of those who were there to witness them. Sadly, this match was not one of them.”

[The_Dud]

I think the above from Scollop pretty much sums up Seb’s career

[B.M]

So we are focusing on a few possessions and judging his career by that? Has he never won the footy and used it effectively?

I’d suggest he has, otherwise he wouldn’t be picked?!
He sure as hell wouldn’t have won a B&F, even more so he wouldn’t have won a second.

How about I point to one match
Vs Hawthorn R4 2019

21 kicks 18 handballs
4 tackles, 1 goal
6 clearances
6 I50’s 3 rebounds
3 clangers
3 Brownlow votes
Silk Miller Medal

[Ghost Like]

I think when we sit down to pick a balanced Best 22 at the beginning of 2021 he makes it. As alluded, he's probably not in our starting midfield but a sign of our improvement and depth means we are tracking well to have him a part of our 2nd rotation plus he's now the go to tagger due to his discipline and endurance.

I look forward to watching the season progress, if Seb is not in our best 22 come year's end, we will be flying.

[The_Dud]

Didn’t McGough win the Anzac Medal once?

Not hard to cherry-pick performances.

Vs Freo R6 2020

5 kicks, 7 handballs
1 tackle, 0 goals
1 clearance
2 i50, 0 r50
4 clangers
4 frees against, 0 goal assists
27 ranking points, 3rd lowest on ground

Sure could have used and experienced leader to step up that day!

[B.M]

Who was his opponent?

How did they play?

What was his role??

Thanks for making my point, which was that you (as you did) can’t look at ONE instant or performance to judge a player.

We could keep going back and forward but I can tell you, if we looked at the last 5 years, I would find more good performances than you would find bad ones!

On a large body of work, Seb has performed well as an AFL mid, without a good tap ruckman (until 2020) and with little support around him. This surely cannot be denied, I’m not sure why people want to deny him any credit?! Why do you want to prove Seb is a poor player? As I said, he is NOT the reason we were average, others who played worse were the reason!

He has played on and beaten/broke even with
Dangerfield
Bontempelli
Martin
Does that make him better than them? No, but it shows he can play at the level very well
He was flogged by Kelly
Does that mean he’s hopeless? No, he had a bad game, it happens

[CQ SAINT]

Who was his opponent?

How did they play?

What was his role??

Thanks for making my point, which was that you (as you did) can’t look at ONE instant or performance to judge a player.

We could keep going back and forward but I can tell you, if we looked at the last 5 years, I would find more good performances than you would find bad ones!

On a large body of work, Seb has performed well as an AFL mid, without a good tap ruckman (until 2020) and with little support around him. This surely cannot be denied, I’m not sure why people want to deny him any credit?! Why do you want to prove Seb is a poor player? As I said, he is NOT the reason we were average, others who played worse were the reason!

He had played on and beaten/broke even with
Dangerfield
Bontempelli
Martin
Does that make him better than them? No, but it shows he can play at the level very well
He was flogged by Kelly
Does that mean he’s hopeless? No, he had a bad game, it happens

All said, Seb is an average footballer, whether in a very average list or an improving list. There's no shame in him going from our best mid to our 5th best mid in one season, it just makes sense as we improve. He must have played some good games, he has 2 B&F's. How he beat Marshall in 19 I will never know but anyway.
Im sure that after about 15 positions have been settled he would be highly considered for one of the next 7 spots, each week. He would be a shoe in for the bench, then considered at HB, then back on the bench.
In midfield previews he'd be last into an attacking role, 5th in rotations and the best athlete for a run with/tagging role, that doesn't cost us much in attack. He is keeping Dunstan out of the side.
He just would not be considered up forward or as an outside link player.
In 2019 Ratten decided that his limited skill set would be applied to a role 'swimming between the flags'. He applied himself to that role like a professional and earnt some respect when he needed to. He will never come close to a B&F or AA selection ever again, but I'm happy he is still there playing consistent average football with random periods of very good performance.

[B.M]

He’s better than average, his last 5 seasons have been good

He beat Marshall in the B&F because better judges (Ratten being one) than you and me rated him higher.
He also got 12 Brownlow votes to Marshall’s 7 votes

Anyone would think he had a horrible year and didn’t deserve to get a vote

Fact is that he averaged 26ppg in 2019 and was consistently good

[Vortex]

Who was his opponent?

How did they play?

What was his role??

Thanks for making my point, which was that you (as you did) can’t look at ONE instant or performance to judge a player.

We could keep going back and forward but I can tell you, if we looked at the last 5 years, I would find more good performances than you would find bad ones!

On a large body of work, Seb has performed well as an AFL mid, without a good tap ruckman (until 2020) and with little support around him. This surely cannot be denied, I’m not sure why people want to deny him any credit?! Why do you want to prove Seb is a poor player? As I said, he is NOT the reason we were average, others who played worse were the reason!

He has played on and beaten/broke even with
Dangerfield
Bontempelli
Martin
Does that make him better than them? No, but it shows he can play at the level very well
He was flogged by Kelly
Does that mean he’s hopeless? No, he had a bad game, it happens

BM I asked the question earlier in this thread if Ratts can squueze some improvement from Seb in 2021 and beyond and I'd be curious what you think as someone that has actually played the game and has significant football knowledge especially from a coaching perspective. Especially now Ratts can put said extra support around Seb in the midfield.

[CQ SAINT]

He’s better than average, his last 5 seasons have been good

He beat Marshall in the B&F because better judges (Ratten being one) than you and me rated him higher.
He also got 12 Brownlow votes to Marshall’s 7 votes

Anyone would think he had a horrible year and didn’t deserve to get a vote

Fact is that he averaged 26ppg in 2019 and was consistently good

Ok. He is consistently good at being average.
He was so good in 2019, that our ruckman was almost a more effective midfielder than he was. When Ratten took over he rerouted Ross and Ross did everything he could to please Ratten. Ratten actually made him more effective by limiting his deficiencies and getting him to focus on his strengths. His last few games that year were much better. Early on though, he wasn't even close to as effective as Marshall.

[B.M]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

[saynta]

He’s better than average, his last 5 seasons have been good

He beat Marshall in the B&F because better judges (Ratten being one) than you and me rated him higher.
He also got 12 Brownlow votes to Marshall’s 7 votes

Anyone would think he had a horrible year and didn’t deserve to get a vote

Fact is that he averaged 26ppg in 2019 and was consistently good

Ok. He is consistently good at being average.
He was so good in 2019, that our ruckman was almost a more effective midfielder than he was. When Ratten took over he rerouted Ross and Ross did everything he could to please Ratten. Ratten actually made him more effective by limiting his deficiencies and getting him to focus on his strengths. His last few games that year were much better. Early on though, he wasn't even close to as effective as Marshall.

Spoken to Ratts on Sebby have you mate. ?

[B.M]

No doubt Sebs level was lower in 2020 compared to 2016-2019.
He was not playing as well and his role was different

Playing in the midfield, there is only so much ball to go around.

Steele is now the ‘go to man’
Zac Jones has come in as a break away clearance player (aka Jack Steven)
And Seb is a defensive mid

Basically Steele and Seb swapped roles

Steel is a better player than Seb now, he has gone to the next level and is A Grade
Zac is not as good as Seb but has a point of difference with his speed and Power
Crouch (who is very similar to Ross) in that he accumulates and can be average by foot, but is a better clearance player.
Ross will be in the midfield rotations without a doubt!

Clearance inside mids (in pecking order)
Steele, Crouch, Hannebery, Ross
Breakaway inside mids
Jones, Gresham, Clarke, Higgins
Run with
Ross, Steele (only if absolutely necessary!)
Outside Mids
Hill, Billings, Hannebery, Jones, Clark
Depth
Dunstan, Bytel, Byrnes

We have a deep midfield but clearly Ross is an important part of it.

[CQ SAINT]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

[saynta]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

"To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.'

What a f****** joke.

In one post you have managed to destroy any football credibility you may have had.