The Seb Ross discussions

[Vortex]

IMHO Seb is on borrowed time.

The list management aspect will help determine when he's let go, because the recruits already mentioned will overtake him in contribution.
Everything he does, will be assessed by data analysts and compared with the recruits.

He will slowly fall away and be a depth player.
In a poorly performing side, he's best 22, but we've brought in so much quality that they'll displace him.

Think about Shane Savage. I am truly sad that he didn't go around again, but Seb will end up similar

I tend to agree he is on borrowed time, Sebby turns 28 in 2021 and may only have 4 to 5 years of footy playing at the elite level.

So, Seb is reaching his prime as a player and has already won 2 b&F's and may only have 4 or 5 years playing at the elite level. That explains why the Cats went after Shaun Higgins. Seb was still too young.

I realise most on this forum have never played the game at even suburban or bush minor league level; I really doubt how many actually go to watch a match in preference to watching it on TV. Most comments sound like radio is the source of their insights, especially when it comes to Seb.

Do you think he can win another B&F

Who knows and does it really matter? He's already won two more than most of the list. I haven't heard him moaning that he wants to play for Geelong because it's closer to Horsham, so he is in for the long haul. He was our best player against Richmond in the semi so why not?

Yeah I agree, I think he proved to be the type of player we are going to need more of during this next phase of the club's history: finals players, and he absolutley proved himself to be a finals player didn't he. Ironically some fans are arguing he was only an ok player in a poor side and as such he wont cut it in a good side however I suspect these fans are the type you are alluding to with regards to the type who have never played the game.

I think there is now a body of evidence from his 2020 season and more importantly from his finals performances that sits within the hypothesis that seeks to determine if his best football and contribution to the club is yet to be delivered.

He could retire a favorite son.

[Joffa Burns]

I have always agreed that Seb being a 2 x B&F winner was more about the poor state of our list than his ability.

At the time I agreed with many posts that we would not be a regular finals participant whilst Seb was our best mid and he needed to be in the mix but down the list.

Now we meet that criteria and there are fans wanting him dropped or suggesting he’s not best 22 which I find perplexing.

In my humble opinion Seb is a good honest B grade AFL midfielder who would be welcomed onto most if not all AFL lists should he be available at the right price.

He is resilient, has plenty of heart, prepares well, plays the role he is given and is a solid citizen. He’ll never be A grade but he doesn’t have to be.

For me Seb rotating between half back and defensive mid will be a telling factor in our sustained finals presence.

His disposal is not elite and he doesn’t have any wow factor and perhaps that’s why he is judged harshly, but to think Bytel or Byrnes will pass him this year is fantasy IMO.

Seb is a solid AFL player and well and truly best 22 at the Saints.

Imagine Geary steps aside from captain duties and Seb is given the role? This could possibly happen.

[WellardSaint]

Joffa, your post is really confusing.

You contradict yourself.
You say Seb getting 2 B n Fs relates to our (at the time) low ladder position.

Then you say that we've got more skill in the squad but he's still in the best 22.

No, it can't be both.

[Joffa Burns]

Joffa, your post is really confusing.

You contradict yourself.
You say Seb getting 2 B n Fs relates to our (at the time) low ladder position.

Then you say that we've got more skill in the squad but he's still in the best 22.

No, it can't be both.

I disagree Wellard.

Im suggesting (though obviously not succinctly explained) that he was clearly a top 5 player in a low club but remains a top 22 despite the development of young players like Clark, Coffield & King and the influx of imported talent.

He’s moved down the list IMO bust it’s not lower than 22, far from it.

Pick a best 22 without Seb and I will name those he will regularly be selected in preference to.

[Vortex]

Joffa, your post is really confusing.

You contradict yourself.
You say Seb getting 2 B n Fs relates to our (at the time) low ladder position.

Then you say that we've got more skill in the squad but he's still in the best 22.

No, it can't be both.

I don't think it took much footy knowledge to understand our midfield at the time Sebby won his TB medals was fairly average. It takes even less footy knowledge to understand Sebby was one of our better midfielders during that time our list was pretty average and he was arguably still not A grade and definitely not elite.

And it takes no footy knowledge to understand we would never win a flag if Sebby was in fact still rated our best midfielder. Fortunately we have some people at the club with some footy knowledge and have put Sebby in his rightful place on the list which is about 4th to 6th best midfielder.

And that now makes our midfield pretty damn good and anyone that continues to argue Sebby is not in our best 22 is arguing to push some seriously talented midfielders already on our list down to 4th or 6th in the pecking order.

That would be just plain greedy.

[Scollop]

Seb Ross as a midfielder at his best when compared to elite mids is like Richo being compared to elite AFL coaches

Actually, nah...that's too harsh on Seb

[WellardSaint]

Zak Jones, Hunter Clark, Dan Hannebery, Brad Crouch, Jack Sinclair, maybe Billings, maybe Higgins- which one of those gets named as emergency to let Seb play?

[CQ SAINT]

Is the vice captain as protected as the captain. You know, just in case the captain gets injured and the vice has already been dropped. Does the vice captain get automatically selected in this case?
Our best 22 has improved so much, I move to call it a best 26, because certain players just need to be in it. End of discussion.

[Vortex]

Zak Jones, Hunter Clark, Dan Hannebery, Brad Crouch, Jack Sinclair, maybe Billings, maybe Higgins- which one of those gets named as emergency to let Seb play?

I think you'll find Sincs will move into Hunts position in the backline and Higgins is yet to establish himself as a full time midfielder. The modern day top 4 side has 6 to 8 midfielders. And you are missing one Brad Hill.

So keeping these points in mind, and jjust to clarify, my understanding of the Seb Ross debate, it seems to be debated on the grounds of a binary argument, he either is or isn't a best 22 type on an ANY AFL list, or put it another way, he either is AFL capable or he isn't.

I believe absolutely he is an AFL capable midfielder, I suppose the debate on Sebby is now shifting slightly now towards the question of is he a top 4 finals player, or can he be a midfielder in a flag side.

To answer that question I ask myelf if he we already have 6 to 8 players that are already top 4 finals or flag type midfielders, OR capable of becoming one in fairly quick time, like in 2021 which is the year we hope to announce ourselves as a top 4 side.

My answer is I think Sebby and the list are close (ish).

Under a new coach and a modified role in the midfield in 2020 which was made possible with the addition of some quality players, Sebby adapted to that new role which ultimately was an obvious correction in the midfield pecking order, 4th to 6th. So he was your typical example of a player being a sound contributor once the critcal mass of quality midfielders increased. Can he get even better without the pressure of being the number 1 or 2 bananna.

So I come back to my point with a clarification, if we accept the recruitment department are looking to have a full compliment of midfielders in the team for 2021 in the magnitude of 6 to 8, who are we going to recruit that pushes Sebby into early retirement.

I believe Sebby would be a great addition to any top 4 side as the 4th to 6th best midfielder.

[shanegrambeau]

Zak Jones, Hunter Clark, Dan Hannebery, Brad Crouch, Jack Sinclair, maybe Billings, maybe Higgins- which one of those gets named as emergency to let Seb play?

If Zac, Brad and Dan all defied the trend, they would all be available to play each week. With hamstring issues, I would be surprised if the number of weeks all three are 100% ready to go, hamstring injury free exceeds the number of weeks at least one of them has a twing. I think Seb gets a handy layer of insurance there too.

[Yorkeys]

The discussions lack objective performance standards to judge by, yes? Seb has been deemed unfashionable and the charges pile on from that, plus the support we who appreciate him give is often luke warm because sure he is not a Chris Judd but he is certainly not a bad player - cops plenty by being unfortunately in a Saints era where we wanted human sacrifices to appease the awful performance gods. Most from that era have not survived we might note. He made his debut in Round 22, 2012 just as the club was going over the cliff. On August 20, 2016 he received the Ian Stewart Medal for best on ground in the Saint's Round 22 victory over Richmond. In 2017 and 2019 he won the Trevor Barker Award for St Kilda's best and fairest - but the Forum discounts this as so what - well its a damn fine set of honours that what it is. Others less durable, more fickle and very occasionally flashy and effective are waved through even though they probably statistically and actually perform poorly more often over the journey. Seb turns up, does a job, never squibs, gets in good spots, takes on roles others could not or would not do - for want of a worse cliche he is a real money ball player. He is a Saint through and through and an ok stand in captain. I think the criticism of Seb does this forum of Saints supporters ( that's what we are are we not) no credit in regards to being able to value a good servant or appreciate how difficult an AFL mid field is to get a kick/handball/tackle. Seb deserves to play in our next premiership. I think.

[Joffa Burns]

Zak Jones, Hunter Clark, Dan Hannebery, Brad Crouch, Jack Sinclair, maybe Billings, maybe Higgins- which one of those gets named as emergency to let Seb play?

Seb plays before Sinclair & Higgins in the above list every day of the week at this point in time.

I’d prefer Jones over Seb as he adds dash and hardness but the coaches may or may not agree. I prefer Clark, Billings and Crouch to Seb but that is my opinion that may not be shared by the coaches.

I’d take Seb over Hannebery due to durability and Hanneberys total lack of accountability in the semi final V the Bulldogs which I believe was fitness related due to inability to run both into defensive fifty and forward.

Would Long, Paton & Webster be preferred as defenders if Higgins & Crouch allow a ball winner like Seb to play off half back? I’m a huge Paton fan and love Longs hardness but trialing Seb off half back in the pre-season could be interesting.

Seb is also the only guy who could play defensive mid now Steele has been given a more attacking role.

The thing I do not understand is why posters suggest we should trade Billings or Ross now we are finals contenders, when I think we need to retain talent and have 25 guys in the frame for selection and have the bottom 10 fighting week in week out.

By talent I mean guys who are proven AFL quality like Ross and Billings.

I remember writing here years back maybe 2014/5 we should target Shane ‘Titch’ Edwards as he had pace, could kick and was a mid range player. A few posters disagreed. Once Richmond became a force Edwards was able to use his talents in a role that made him a finals weapon.
I’m hoping Billings will be similar.

[To the top]

My concerns with Ross are that, despite his size he is not an inside mid, mostly with the ball in space which presents another problem

Whilst in warm ups he appears to have straight line speed, he does not use that speed, frequently static when receiving the ball, being closed down accordingly and forced onto his left foot (he is one sided) with no penetration and not serving the side because ball movement is compromised

His chase speed is generally poor

Every now and then he will hit up a forward in minimal space but when he does the comment is “where did that come from”, so rare is such disposal

He can not push forward because there isn’t any overhead ability (hence 20 odd goals from 140 games)

As with Sinclair, no defender

Mostly Ross denies space when assigned run with roles - so positions himself well in that role, which is his future

Ross does not win contested ball or, when fed, carrying by foot for 15 metres then further punishing oppositions by 50 metre disposal to advantage (or shots on goal himself)

In a full strength side, fighting with Sinclair for the 22nd spot

Hopefully we have improved to that level as a Club

In defence we have Clark, Coffield, Long, Paton, Wilkie and Roberton, so no place for Ross and Sinclair (or some others who remain on our List)

[shanegrambeau]

My concerns with Ross are that, despite his size he is not an inside mid, mostly with the ball in space which presents another problem

Whilst in warm ups he appears to have straight line speed, he does not use that speed, frequently static when receiving the ball, being closed down accordingly and forced onto his left foot (he is one sided) with no penetration and not serving the side because ball movement is compromised

His chase speed is generally poor

Every now and then he will hit up a forward in minimal space but when he does the comment is “where did that come from”, so rare is such disposal

He can not push forward because there isn’t any overhead ability (hence 20 odd goals from 140 games)

As with Sinclair, no defender

Mostly Ross denies space when assigned run with roles - so positions himself well in that role, which is his future

Ross does not win contested ball or, when fed, carrying by foot for 15 metres then further punishing oppositions by 50 metre disposal to advantage (or shots on goal himself)

In a full strength side, fighting with Sinclair for the 22nd spot

Hopefully we have improved to that level as a Club

In defence we have Clark, Coffield, Long, Paton, Wilkie and Roberton, so no place for Ross and Sinclair (or some others who remain on our List)

Thank you for this. This technical stuff i love to read...
I have to conclude its one of those, 'sum of all parts' things together with exemplary commitment, leadership and prep that got Sebby all those votes in the TB Awards. But in the terms you describe, its hard to find a place for him, unless you similarly dissect the strengths and weaknesses of the others around him. (be my guest)

The only role that might be left for Sebby is tagger?

[skeptic]

Very polarising player isn’t he

IMO, like most of the debates that have endured over an age... the correct view to this one is somewhere in the middle. Ross has had a good career at St.Kilda... some may even say excellent. He’s not going to be delisted, he’s still in the top 22 etc etc

The flip side is that he hasn’t been so good that he’s an elite untouchable heart and soul of the club like a Lenny Hayes or a Nathan Burke. The reality is that whilst he’s been an enduring servant of the club he hasn’t ever really gotten to the elite status that he has so often promised to reach

You compare him to another player of his time in Jack Steven - he’s outlasted and been the better clubman... but the reality was if even only for small patches of time, Steven moved into the elite match winner category for us. And obviously Steven is open to a lot of flak from both how he left us the sudden trajectory that saw his career end abruptly...

Alternatively there’s an air of untouchability about Ross on this forum that really escalates the outrage... using 2020 as the example, before he was injured myself and a few others brought up that he was horribly out of form and should be dropped and oh the outrage. Heaven forbid Ross could possibly play better... it was as though we shat in someone’s front yard.
Naturally of course, when he returned got back up to the higher standard that he was capable of and as many pointed out... pbly our best player across two finals and a stalwart over the second half of the season.
He’s not above reproach though.

And most ppl here IMO, based on the top22s on this forum have him on the bench with the thought that he may well be overtaken... and the reality is that if Seb doesn’t play his best... he actually really is at risk of losing his spot as an automatic selection

His best is good... but he can also be mediocre

Ultimately to me... he’s the player that symbolises the pre-Ratten era better than anyone:
He was good... heck at times he looked exceptional. Seemingly a player that was capable of getting 25 touches a game and kicking a goal... like our incredibly promising list that had a plethora players that could turn it on at any given time, we waited for him to take the next step, go up a level and stay there... but he never did

Like the club over 2014-2019, competitive most of the time, signs of an upward trajectory, some memorable, spectacular moments but ultimately more average than great.
If we’re saying that his correct position really is the 5th or 6th position as has been alluded to before... what does it say that he won 2 B&Fs

Personally I always thought he could have been better

[saynta]

The player that regularly won Trevor Barker awards in poor lists was actually Jack Steven but no one wants to admit that and prefer to erroneously hang that title on Seb. Poor form actually.

[The Billings Method]

Seb was another victim of the poor coaching and development during the Watterssss/ Richo era. Like so many others. He cooda bin a contender. Alas, he has never fully realised his potential.

I take heart from his form late in 2020. He may have found his niche under Ratts as a run with type, who can win his own ball. As such, he may end up as a very important part of our premiership puzzle.

[Joffa Burns]

The player that regularly won Trevor Barker awards in poor lists was actually Jack Steven but no one wants to admit that and prefer to erroneously hang that title on Seb. Poor form actually.

You are correct, how many 4 times B&F players have never been AA? Steven was a very good AFL player but never elite.

Shows how poor that era 2013-19 was when Steven & Ross are waxing for 6 x B&Fs.

Both good players but compare them to three time winner L Hayes and 0 time winners B Goddard & N Dal Santo and it shows how weak we were in that period.

I liked Steven as a player but the fact he is a 4 x TBA winner is almost an embarrassment to the club.

[Harves Man]

Very polarising player isn’t he

IMO, like most of the debates that have endured over an age... the correct view to this one is somewhere in the middle. Ross has had a good career at St.Kilda... some may even say excellent. He’s not going to be delisted, he’s still in the top 22 etc etc

The flip side is that he hasn’t been so good that he’s an elite untouchable heart and soul of the club like a Lenny Hayes or a Nathan Burke. The reality is that whilst he’s been an enduring servant of the club he hasn’t ever really gotten to the elite status that he has so often promised to reach

You compare him to another player of his time in Jack Steven - he’s outlasted and been the better clubman... but the reality was if even only for small patches of time, Steven moved into the elite match winner category for us. And obviously Steven is open to a lot of flak from both how he left us the sudden trajectory that saw his career end abruptly...

Alternatively there’s an air of untouchability about Ross on this forum that really escalates the outrage... using 2020 as the example, before he was injured myself and a few others brought up that he was horribly out of form and should be dropped and oh the outrage. Heaven forbid Ross could possibly play better... it was as though we shat in someone’s front yard.
Naturally of course, when he returned got back up to the higher standard that he was capable of and as many pointed out... pbly our best player across two finals and a stalwart over the second half of the season.
He’s not above reproach though.

And most ppl here IMO, based on the top22s on this forum have him on the bench with the thought that he may well be overtaken... and the reality is that if Seb doesn’t play his best... he actually really is at risk of losing his spot as an automatic selection

His best is good... but he can also be mediocre

Ultimately to me... he’s the player that symbolises the pre-Ratten era better than anyone:
He was good... heck at times he looked exceptional. Seemingly a player that was capable of getting 25 touches a game and kicking a goal... like our incredibly promising list that had a plethora players that could turn it on at any given time, we waited for him to take the next step, go up a level and stay there... but he never did

Like the club over 2014-2019, competitive most of the time, signs of an upward trajectory, some memorable, spectacular moments but ultimately more average than great.
If we’re saying that his correct position really is the 5th or 6th position as has been alluded to before... what does it say that he won 2 B&Fs

Personally I always thought he could have been better

Skeptic, generally speaking, I love your posts. However, this one is just observational genius, in my humble opinion.

I tend to think that this particular problem will be sorted out kind of organically - we often forget that our coach was a champion midfielder - it's not like he won't notice a deficiency in that department!

[skeptic]

Very polarising player isn’t he

IMO, like most of the debates that have endured over an age... the correct view to this one is somewhere in the middle. Ross has had a good career at St.Kilda... some may even say excellent. He’s not going to be delisted, he’s still in the top 22 etc etc

The flip side is that he hasn’t been so good that he’s an elite untouchable heart and soul of the club like a Lenny Hayes or a Nathan Burke. The reality is that whilst he’s been an enduring servant of the club he hasn’t ever really gotten to the elite status that he has so often promised to reach

You compare him to another player of his time in Jack Steven - he’s outlasted and been the better clubman... but the reality was if even only for small patches of time, Steven moved into the elite match winner category for us. And obviously Steven is open to a lot of flak from both how he left us the sudden trajectory that saw his career end abruptly...

Alternatively there’s an air of untouchability about Ross on this forum that really escalates the outrage... using 2020 as the example, before he was injured myself and a few others brought up that he was horribly out of form and should be dropped and oh the outrage. Heaven forbid Ross could possibly play better... it was as though we shat in someone’s front yard.
Naturally of course, when he returned got back up to the higher standard that he was capable of and as many pointed out... pbly our best player across two finals and a stalwart over the second half of the season.
He’s not above reproach though.

And most ppl here IMO, based on the top22s on this forum have him on the bench with the thought that he may well be overtaken... and the reality is that if Seb doesn’t play his best... he actually really is at risk of losing his spot as an automatic selection

His best is good... but he can also be mediocre

Ultimately to me... he’s the player that symbolises the pre-Ratten era better than anyone:
He was good... heck at times he looked exceptional. Seemingly a player that was capable of getting 25 touches a game and kicking a goal... like our incredibly promising list that had a plethora players that could turn it on at any given time, we waited for him to take the next step, go up a level and stay there... but he never did

Like the club over 2014-2019, competitive most of the time, signs of an upward trajectory, some memorable, spectacular moments but ultimately more average than great.
If we’re saying that his correct position really is the 5th or 6th position as has been alluded to before... what does it say that he won 2 B&Fs

Personally I always thought he could have been better

Skeptic, generally speaking, I love your posts. However, this one is just observational genius, in my humble opinion.

Seems fair

[Vortex]

Seb was another victim of the poor coaching and development during the Watterssss/ Richo era. Like so many others. He cooda bin a contender. Alas, he has never fully realised his potential.

I take heart from his form late in 2020. He may have found his niche under Ratts as a run with type, who can win his own ball. As such, he may end up as a very important part of our premiership puzzle.

Ratts put some time and work into Sebby last pre season, we all remember the media Sebby was doing last summer explaining the specifics of the instruction he was receiving, something about swimming between the flags.

Can we attribute his form improvement late in the 2020 season and finals performances to the coaching of Ratts?

If we are looking forward and not in the rear vision mirror, it is in Ratts (and ours) best interests to help Sebby keep his spot in the side.

A midfield that bats deep is what will bring the flag home.

[The_Dud]

The further down the midfield depth chart Seb is, the better it is for the Saints.

He was overtaken by quite a few players last season, and hopefully even more next.

He’s got a reasonably high floor, but very low ceiling. We’ve seen what you get with Seb in your starting midfield, and it’s not finals/premierships.

[Sanctorum]

The player that regularly won Trevor Barker awards in poor lists was actually Jack Steven but no one wants to admit that and prefer to erroneously hang that title on Seb. Poor form actually.

You are correct, how many 4 times B&F players have never been AA? Steven was a very good AFL player but never elite.

Shows how poor that era 2013-19 was when Steven & Ross are waxing for 6 x B&Fs.

Both good players but compare them to three time winner L Hayes and 0 time winners B Goddard & N Dal Santo and it shows how weak we were in that period.

I liked Steven as a player but the fact he is a 4 x TBA winner is almost an embarrassment to the club.

That's my view as well Joffa, winning the club's top player award has to be seen in the context of the overall quality and performance of the team, and in the years that Steven and Ross won TBAs St Kilda were by and large only an average team with mediocre performance.

Nonetheless, if Seb Ross (as well as Jack Billing and Luke Dunstan) are able to improve SIGNIFICANTLY then that will certainly make St Kilda a much better side contending for the premiership in 2021.

On the other hand, if anyone of this trio do not rise to the challenge they may be overtaken by the likes of Clark, Coffield, Higgins and possibly Bytel for a regular place in the team's midfield.

[saynta]

Only thing wrong with these statements is that Seb won two TB awards and was runner up in a third whilst the team was improving and on the rise, not when it was stagnating or going backwards as when Jack won his 4.

Lets call a spade a f****** shovel for a change.

Sebb is constantly put down on this forum or undervalued by some and his deeds only receive faint praise if they are mentioned at all.

Voting in SS awards as opposed to the real votes handed out by the saints coaches confirm my views. Seb couldn't buy a vote from some guys this year even when he was clearly in the best 5 players on the ground.

On the other hand Sebb was in the top ten in the TB award.

Seb is one of the finest players to don R W & B in the past decade and attempts to down play his achievements are just pathetic.

I recognised Seb's skills early on especially his quick hands sand ball winning ability at a time others wanted to trade him to the f****** bombers ffs, solely because his uncle and cousin played there. How f****** pathetic.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's the same few who are now posting that Seb is finished or at least will struggle to get a game in 2021 as he is not top 22. What utter bulls***.

The same posters, I am wiling to bet would deny that Seb was our best player in the last game we played in 2020. I am also willing to bet that Ratts hasn't forgotten and that Seb will be amongst the first half dozen picked in the first game next year.

I can only f****** hope the players don't read the negative crap posted on here at times.

[Vortex]

With Ratts coaching being the likely reason Sebs form improved as the 2020 season progressed culminating in him becoming one of our better finals contributors, then the question has to be asked, can Ratts deliver more improvement in Seb's game especially now he has Crouch coming into the side to provide even more support to the midfield unit.