Seb Ross Vs Dan Hannebery

[Joffa Burns]

Interesting....Hannas was an A grade gun at his peak, Seb a b grade good honest footballer. But Seb provides better value to the Saints than Dan.

But in terms of what the team needs ....tools in the tool set.....what we are short of, and what we have in relative abundance , doesn’t Hannas them get a boost in that metric it sense?

How, he’s barely played in the last couple of seasons?

[CQ SAINT]

Interesting question and good hypothetical at this time of year.

Posters refer to Hannas at his best but that clearly was 4-5 years ago. Hannas is a bust recruitment and his payment clearly has cost us other potential recruits from an affordability perspective.

So Hill, Ryder, Howard etc wouldn’t have come without Hannebery? Show me some proof of this and I’ll subscribe to this semi popular opinion.

Hannas game against the Bulldogs was totally overrated IMO from watching the game live.

Hannas was an A grade gun at his peak, Seb a b grade good honest footballer. But Seb provides better value to the Saints than Dan.

Do you have any proof Hanners has clearly cost us other potential recruits? Which potential recruits and maybe give us a speculative guess at what his payment schedule over his first 4 years was? You seem pretty certain about this!

Bad wording on my behalf, No I don’t have any proof, my opinion but it is based on fair logic.

Do you think we could have got Treloar if Hannas was not contracted? My guess is we would have had a much better chance at Treloar.

We paid overs in the trade and overs in salary (even if he’s on $500k) for what was a Sydney salary dump of a broken down player well past his best.

He was an elite player between 2011 - 2016, but he’s well past it now and has been a bust of a trade.

Fair enough, but on that logic, you'd have to think that Geary signing on, Ross' last contract, Roberton's last contract, Kent's contract and maybe a few more cost us just as much.
A crystal ball on the Treloar fiasco would have been handy.
Can you think of any other targets we were serious about and didn't get in the last 3 off seasons that Hanners has cost us?
Then apply 'fair logic' to the notion that Hanners actually might have helped us look like serious moneyballers and attracted a few of the guys we have recruited.
I'm pretty sure they club werent selling, you can play with Seb if you come over, we will temper his accumulation, get him focussed on a meaningful role, and reverse the turnover impact of his disposals.

[sendmehomehappy]

With the addition of Crouch and also Higgins to roll through the midfield, and the further reasonably expected improvement of Hunts, Coffield, and the highly-rated young Bytel who showed good glimpses without much of a go in 2020; our midfield prospects are looking exciting.

Seb has been a stalwart of the midfield for years and did show improvement with possession and disposal in late 2020. We owe him a huge debt of gratitude for his past and continuing service to the club. Whether he has the skillset to mix it with the additions and up-and-comers only time will tell.

As for Hanners, he has been hamstrung so far, but don't forget he went under the knife and had the scar tissue sliced out.

He performed far better in his reappearance at the pointy end of the season off a very limited preparation than I expected or hoped for.

He is pure class, and if managed properly through the year and in the right on-field role, I have anxious high hopes that he will repay the club's investment in him when it really counts.

Good hypothetical, but I would have kept both and delisted Geary.

(Gears has been one of my favs for years, don't get me wrong)

[bakes]

I would definitely keep Hannebery, even if he stays injured the whole season.

Why? No Ross, no turnovers. Thankfully Ratten knows what he wants from his players ... guys that can consistently hit a teammate up.

As least Hannebery can be a cheerleader from the stands.

[whiskers3614]

Can't believe the love for Hannebery on here.
Only Lovett and Freeman have provided less value for the money spent on them.

As for "driving training standards" and "he helped make us a destination club" I would like some sort of evidence to support these theories presented repeatedly as self evident facts.
As Trump has proven constant repetition of unsubstantiated allegations do not make them more true!

[Joffa Burns]

Interesting question and good hypothetical at this time of year.

Posters refer to Hannas at his best but that clearly was 4-5 years ago. Hannas is a bust recruitment and his payment clearly has cost us other potential recruits from an affordability perspective.

So Hill, Ryder, Howard etc wouldn’t have come without Hannebery? Show me some proof of this and I’ll subscribe to this semi popular opinion.

Hannas game against the Bulldogs was totally overrated IMO from watching the game live.

Hannas was an A grade gun at his peak, Seb a b grade good honest footballer. But Seb provides better value to the Saints than Dan.

Do you have any proof Hanners has clearly cost us other potential recruits? Which potential recruits and maybe give us a speculative guess at what his payment schedule over his first 4 years was? You seem pretty certain about this!

Bad wording on my behalf, No I don’t have any proof, my opinion but it is based on fair logic.

Do you think we could have got Treloar if Hannas was not contracted? My guess is we would have had a much better chance at Treloar.

We paid overs in the trade and overs in salary (even if he’s on $500k) for what was a Sydney salary dump of a broken down player well past his best.

He was an elite player between 2011 - 2016, but he’s well past it now and has been a bust of a trade.

Fair enough, but on that logic, you'd have to think that Geary signing on, Ross' last contract, Roberton's last contract, Kent's contract and maybe a few more cost us just as much.
A crystal ball on the Treloar fiasco would have been handy.
Can you think of any other targets we were serious about and didn't get in the last 3 off seasons that Hanners has cost us?
Then apply 'fair logic' to the notion that Hanners actually might have helped us look like serious moneyballers and attracted a few of the guys we have recruited.
I'm pretty sure they club werent selling, you can play with Seb if you come over, we will temper his accumulation, get him focussed on a meaningful role, and reverse the turnover impact of his disposals.

I think the call that Hannas coming to the Saints encouraged the other recruits is more a justification on his recruitment by Saints fans than based on logic. With the exception on Jones, do we know of any link between the other recruits with Hannebery?

From the press Hill & Ryder (cousins) wanted to play together & Hill under Ratten, Jones also cited meeting with Ratten and midfield opportunity. Can’t recall any recruit stating they wanted to play with Hannas but Ratten & cash seemed a big motivator.

Then there is the Hannas professional training playing part time coaching theory. Again it may be true but Hannas is not in the leadership group and you do not hear (correct me if wrong) players gushing about his leadership or professionalism as you do around the likes of Geary & Billings.

I agree with you regarding Kent’s contract as he appeared (from a layman supporters perspective) to have been offered overs in tenure (and probably cash) to move to the Saints as did Hannebery.

Can’t agree that Geary, Robertson et al should be grouped as they were Saint stalwarts and I assume were rewarded fir their Saints historical performance. Robert on was a very good AFL player before his health issues.

I may be wrong in my opinion about Hannebery, he may be the messiah who has driven the turn around at the club, I just haven’t seen or read anything that validates this. If you can link me to some evidence as opposed to opinion I’d be happy to concede my opinion is baseless.

I also agree it was impossible to predict a player if Treloars ability could go so cheap, but it would be hard to argue in an isolated situation that we’d have been in a strong position to recruit Treloar had Hannebery retired at the end of last season.

Nonetheless it’s onward and upward for an exciting 2021.
I’m interested to see if Ryder & Butler can reproduce their 2020 form, the impact of Higgins and improvement of King, Clark & Coffield. Will Hannebery be fit and will he play 10 games? Will the game have past him by in 2021?

My prediction is a top 3 B&F finish for Billings in 2021.

[CQ SAINT]

Interesting question and good hypothetical at this time of year.

Posters refer to Hannas at his best but that clearly was 4-5 years ago. Hannas is a bust recruitment and his payment clearly has cost us other potential recruits from an affordability perspective.

So Hill, Ryder, Howard etc wouldn’t have come without Hannebery? Show me some proof of this and I’ll subscribe to this semi popular opinion.

Hannas game against the Bulldogs was totally overrated IMO from watching the game live.

Hannas was an A grade gun at his peak, Seb a b grade good honest footballer. But Seb provides better value to the Saints than Dan.

Do you have any proof Hanners has clearly cost us other potential recruits? Which potential recruits and maybe give us a speculative guess at what his payment schedule over his first 4 years was? You seem pretty certain about this!

Bad wording on my behalf, No I don’t have any proof, my opinion but it is based on fair logic.

Do you think we could have got Treloar if Hannas was not contracted? My guess is we would have had a much better chance at Treloar.

We paid overs in the trade and overs in salary (even if he’s on $500k) for what was a Sydney salary dump of a broken down player well past his best.

He was an elite player between 2011 - 2016, but he’s well past it now and has been a bust of a trade.

Fair enough, but on that logic, you'd have to think that Geary signing on, Ross' last contract, Roberton's last contract, Kent's contract and maybe a few more cost us just as much.
A crystal ball on the Treloar fiasco would have been handy.
Can you think of any other targets we were serious about and didn't get in the last 3 off seasons that Hanners has cost us?
Then apply 'fair logic' to the notion that Hanners actually might have helped us look like serious moneyballers and attracted a few of the guys we have recruited.
I'm pretty sure they club werent selling, you can play with Seb if you come over, we will temper his accumulation, get him focussed on a meaningful role, and reverse the turnover impact of his disposals.

I think the call that Hannas coming to the Saints encouraged the other recruits is more a justification on his recruitment by Saints fans than based on logic. With the exception on Jones, do we know of any link between the other recruits with Hannebery?

From the press Hill & Ryder (cousins) wanted to play together & Hill under Ratten, Jones also cited meeting with Ratten and midfield opportunity. Can’t recall any recruit stating they wanted to play with Hannas but Ratten & cash seemed a big motivator.

Then there is the Hannas professional training playing part time coaching theory. Again it may be true but Hannas is not in the leadership group and you do not hear (correct me if wrong) players gushing about his leadership or professionalism as you do around the likes of Geary & Billings.

I agree with you regarding Kent’s contract as he appeared (from a layman supporters perspective) to have been offered overs in tenure (and probably cash) to move to the Saints as did Hannebery.

Can’t agree that Geary, Robertson et al should be grouped as they were Saint stalwarts and I assume were rewarded fir their Saints historical performance. Robert on was a very good AFL player before his health issues.

I may be wrong in my opinion about Hannebery, he may be the messiah who has driven the turn around at the club, I just haven’t seen or read anything that validates this. If you can link me to some evidence as opposed to opinion I’d be happy to concede my opinion is baseless.

I also agree it was impossible to predict a player if Treloars ability could go so cheap, but it would be hard to argue in an isolated situation that we’d have been in a strong position to recruit Treloar had Hannebery retired at the end of last season.

Nonetheless it’s onward and upward for an exciting 2021.
I’m interested to see if Ryder & Butler can reproduce their 2020 form, the impact of Higgins and improvement of King, Clark & Coffield. Will Hannebery be fit and will he play 10 games? Will the game have past him by in 2021?

My prediction is a top 3 B&F finish for Billings in 2021.

All fair assumptions.
But getting back to the context of the OP, I'll just ask you this, if you were Clark and you wanted to know something about what it took to achieve premierships, AA standards and to maintain an improving work rate, in your first year, and Richardson, Ratten, Ross and Hanners were out on the ground, who would you go to first? I'll add Geary too if you like.
I've read a bit about how good Seb Ross was in his B&F years, but that didnt reflect so well on those around him at the time.
Since then, his strong B grade status, has clearly been accepted and he finds himself in a new role.
While Hanners hasn't upended him on the field, its hard to imagine that Seb's role reversal and decline in output has been awe inspiring. Other than he has applied himself to his new role, like a pro.
On the contrary, we have seen huge improvement in attacking, dynamic play from Steele, Gresham, Clark and even Sinclair in this time. Billings has just eased along.
No doubt, we can say that Ratten or Roughie(who dont play) are the reason. But we can't say the same for Hannerbery? I think this train of thought is naive.
I agree that we are on the up and it is a great thing. I hope you are right about Billings, he has a thing or 2 to prove and with a better system around him, with better leaders, he could be primed for more than just B&F status.

[Gershwin]

Interesting question and good hypothetical at this time of year.

Posters refer to Hannas at his best but that clearly was 4-5 years ago. Hannas is a bust recruitment and his payment clearly has cost us other potential recruits from an affordability perspective.

So Hill, Ryder, Howard etc wouldn’t have come without Hannebery? Show me some proof of this and I’ll subscribe to this semi popular opinion.

Hannas game against the Bulldogs was totally overrated IMO from watching the game live.

Hannas was an A grade gun at his peak, Seb a b grade good honest footballer. But Seb provides better value to the Saints than Dan.

Do you have any proof Hanners has clearly cost us other potential recruits? Which potential recruits and maybe give us a speculative guess at what his payment schedule over his first 4 years was? You seem pretty certain about this!

Bad wording on my behalf, No I don’t have any proof, my opinion but it is based on fair logic.

Do you think we could have got Treloar if Hannas was not contracted? My guess is we would have had a much better chance at Treloar.

We paid overs in the trade and overs in salary (even if he’s on $500k) for what was a Sydney salary dump of a broken down player well past his best.

He was an elite player between 2011 - 2016, but he’s well past it now and has been a bust of a trade.

Fair enough, but on that logic, you'd have to think that Geary signing on, Ross' last contract, Roberton's last contract, Kent's contract and maybe a few more cost us just as much.
A crystal ball on the Treloar fiasco would have been handy.
Can you think of any other targets we were serious about and didn't get in the last 3 off seasons that Hanners has cost us?
Then apply 'fair logic' to the notion that Hanners actually might have helped us look like serious moneyballers and attracted a few of the guys we have recruited.
I'm pretty sure they club werent selling, you can play with Seb if you come over, we will temper his accumulation, get him focussed on a meaningful role, and reverse the turnover impact of his disposals.

I think the call that Hannas coming to the Saints encouraged the other recruits is more a justification on his recruitment by Saints fans than based on logic. With the exception on Jones, do we know of any link between the other recruits with Hannebery?

From the press Hill & Ryder (cousins) wanted to play together & Hill under Ratten, Jones also cited meeting with Ratten and midfield opportunity. Can’t recall any recruit stating they wanted to play with Hannas but Ratten & cash seemed a big motivator.

Then there is the Hannas professional training playing part time coaching theory. Again it may be true but Hannas is not in the leadership group and you do not hear (correct me if wrong) players gushing about his leadership or professionalism as you do around the likes of Geary & Billings.

I agree with you regarding Kent’s contract as he appeared (from a layman supporters perspective) to have been offered overs in tenure (and probably cash) to move to the Saints as did Hannebery.

Can’t agree that Geary, Robertson et al should be grouped as they were Saint stalwarts and I assume were rewarded fir their Saints historical performance. Robert on was a very good AFL player before his health issues.

I may be wrong in my opinion about Hannebery, he may be the messiah who has driven the turn around at the club, I just haven’t seen or read anything that validates this. If you can link me to some evidence as opposed to opinion I’d be happy to concede my opinion is baseless.

I also agree it was impossible to predict a player if Treloars ability could go so cheap, but it would be hard to argue in an isolated situation that we’d have been in a strong position to recruit Treloar had Hannebery retired at the end of last season.

Nonetheless it’s onward and upward for an exciting 2021.
I’m interested to see if Ryder & Butler can reproduce their 2020 form, the impact of Higgins and improvement of King, Clark & Coffield. Will Hannebery be fit and will he play 10 games? Will the game have past him by in 2021?

My prediction is a top 3 B&F finish for Billings in 2021.

Top 3 B&F finish for Billings in 2021 ??
Nah, I predicted that this year. He is just a tease.

[desertsaint]

Cones down to onfield potential going forward, on the past season both have a role, if Hanna stays fir for ten games and finals it's pretty obviously he that l'd prefer. Ross is good depth. As for Billings, i've given up expecting any more of him than we get. Just hasn't got the drive to take that next step. By no means a bust, but we're all expecting more growth out of Clark and Coffield than him, as we should.

[Sanctorum]

This has been a enjoyable discussion, especially the regular arguments about the comparative performances of Ross, Hannebery and Billings.

Opinions on Hannebery's influence on attracting other players to St Kilda are based on media commentators' observations at the end of last year.

My reservations about Seb Ross are based on the extraordinary long time that it took him to elevate his game to a reasonably high standard, and despite having won a handful of B&Fs he never reached elite level, nor is he likely to achieve that in the future, so a fair average player imho..

Same goes for Jack Billings, a high draft pick that has never become a match-winner, I really hope you're on the money Joffa with your prediction of JB finishing top 3 in B&F next year, would be great! But if that doesn't eventuate that will denote him as yet another fair average player...and like Seb Ross become the subject of endless debates about their worth to the team!

On the other hand, Dan Hannebery does have a very good pedigree and although his arrival at St Kilda has been marred by serious injuries and extended lay-offs, if his body does finally hold up in 2021 and he plays regularly I am quite certain he will become a powerful force in getting this team into premiership contention.

[WellardSaint]

this thread sounds like that British TV show "Snog, Marry Avoid" hahahaha

[The_Dud]

Both just depth at this point taking up way more salary cap then they should.

Dan’s body is shot and Ross is the ultimate hacker, so...

So you don't subscribe to the view that getting Hanners helped persuade Hill, Ryder, Howard, Butler and Jones that they should take our future prospects seriously and come to us rather than one of the bigger name clubs.

Because I reckon that's exactly what happened.

Not at all.

It’s just a narrative that has been thrown around to help some try to justify what has been a disastrous signing.

[samuraisaint]

Hannebury was great in our first final.

And it wasn't his fault that we went into our second final without Long, Ryder and Carlisle. We may have gone further if we had.

Great signing!

[Freebird]

Who would you prefer to have the football in their hands?

[vacuous space]

Who would you prefer to have the football in their hands?

Averages:
Hannebery - 17.6 disposals, 5.8 contested, 248 metres gained, 3.9 turnovers
Ross - 17.9 disposals, 6.8 contested, 202 metres gained, 3.1 turnovers

So, I'm hoping they handball it to Hill.

[whiskers3614]

Who would you prefer to have the football in their hands?

Averages:
Hannebery - 17.6 disposals, 5.8 contested, 248 metres gained, 3.9 turnovers
Ross - 17.9 disposals, 6.8 contested, 202 metres gained, 3.1 turnovers

So, I'm hoping they handball it to Hill.
[/quote]

and that there is no opposition player within 20metres of Hill!

[ace]

When you are a bottom 6 club you need guys who keep the rest of the team honest by putting in effort week on week.
Ross is just such a player.
But if you aspire to be top 6 you need guys who are highly skilled as well.
St Kilda has recruited such players.

Once you make the top 6 you can forget about the draft.
The picks you get are too late.
They are not going to deliver guaranteed elite players.
You need to get elite free agents and trades.
But when you are a top 6 club there is no room for the guy who keeps the team honest, he belongs at a bottom 6 club.

Many of our clubs loyal servants will not be part of the next premiership team but they will have helped the club climb the ladder to become contenders.

[skeptic]

Hmmm

If I was a betting man, I’d put my money of Ross plying more excellent games on 2021 then Hannerbery.

As it stands... Hannebery seems to play one good game a year

[shanegrambeau]

► Show Spoiler

Hannebury was great in our first final.

And it wasn't his fault that we went into our second final without Long, Ryder and Carlisle. We may have gone further if we had.

Great signing!

Nathan Brown .....letting him retire....being all ‘goody teo shoes” ...about it. Our biggest f...up in 2020.

If he was fit and firing, what a difference against Richmond!
We were still in that game, damn it...for a while.

I am guessing it is now a strategy of the club to image that only 75% of these mature transplant recruits will be up and available.

Hanners is definitely one on the wrong side of that ledger obviously, and Ross is not..

[bangaulegend]

Can't believe the love for Hannebery on here.
Only Lovett and Freeman have provided less value for the money spent on them.

As for "driving training standards" and "he helped make us a destination club" I would like some sort of evidence to support these theories presented repeatedly as self evident facts.
As Trump has proven constant repetition of unsubstantiated allegations do not make them more true!

I'm with you whiskers , I don't see how the blue sky brigade can say it was a positive move considering that actual facts . He has played less than 15 games in 2 full seasons & has played 4 or 5 reasonable games on at least $500k probably more. Where is the evidence players are attracted because of his influence I just don't see it. Cam Wilke has had a way better impact at the club IMO than Hannebery at a quarter of of the price & IMO has more upside.

[shanegrambeau]

I believe Hanners would attract younger impressionable players with good intentions and older or mid career players looking for a bit of ‘scope’ ..let’s generously call it. No empirical evidence can support this, just the wizened analytic eyes of me!

He’s a rascal basically. And that is attractive to the male psyche. Plenty of sports players are respectful of Tour de France cheat ‘what’s his name’ (sorry can’t remember the name....but the American dude with cancer ..who rode for their post office and won seven times). He is a ‘bad ads’.

And then there is the ideal of the older world weary guy who is chronically injured, but knows how to spin-the-spin so to speak. Another very attractive model for the male psyche, especially a player mid-career who has a few weak spots but knows he has to play his card right.

I can see Dan Hannebury being a very attractive light to attract a certain variety of players and some of them no doubt, will give value.

[Scollop]

Interesting question and good hypothetical at this time of year.

Posters refer to Hannas at his best but that clearly was 4-5 years ago. Hannas is a bust recruitment and his payment clearly has cost us other potential recruits from an affordability perspective.

So Hill, Ryder, Howard etc wouldn’t have come without Hannebery? Show me some proof of this and I’ll subscribe to this semi popular opinion.

Hannas game against the Bulldogs was totally overrated IMO from watching the game live.

Hannas was an A grade gun at his peak, Seb a b grade good honest footballer. But Seb provides better value to the Saints than Dan.

Do you have any proof Hanners has clearly cost us other potential recruits? Which potential recruits and maybe give us a speculative guess at what his payment schedule over his first 4 years was? You seem pretty certain about this!

Bad wording on my behalf, No I don’t have any proof, my opinion but it is based on fair logic.

Do you think we could have got Treloar if Hannas was not contracted? My guess is we would have had a much better chance at Treloar.

We paid overs in the trade and overs in salary (even if he’s on $500k) for what was a Sydney salary dump of a broken down player well past his best.

He was an elite player between 2011 - 2016, but he’s well past it now and has been a bust of a trade.

I agree with Mr Burns.... of the Joffa variety

I was also thinking exactly the same re: Adam Treloar

We were desperate with the Hannas deal and we didn't properly assess ALL risks. The Hannas deal might have impacted our ability to gain the services of Caldwell and maybe other future young guns like Bing. The other possible hypotheticals might involve maybe the trade that occurred the year after with Hill, and whether we would have gone ahead and paid overs and mortgaged the farm had we not recruited Hannas who was such a disappointment.

Maybe the questions could be; What if Mr Richardson wasn't coach? Would another head coach have endorsed the trade?

What if Mr Lethlean wasn't head of the footy department? Would the trade have gone ahead?

Even Lethlean referred to the alleged 'party boy' reputation. Did the footy boss consult the medical staff and ask the question regarding possible effects on major muscle groups from long term cocaine use on an elite athlete and.... IF the possible scenario of Hannas alleged partying was perhaps true, whether the salary cost and the length of tenure was far too big a risk?

We know that Seb prepares his body well. The question we ALL would like to know is; What is Dan doing to ensure that he gets his 'body' right? What extras is he doing and what has he changed or 'eliminated' from his daily/weekly routine?

[Ghost Like]

Both just depth at this point taking up way more salary cap then they should.

Dan’s body is shot and Ross is the ultimate hacker, so...

So you don't subscribe to the view that getting Hanners helped persuade Hill, Ryder, Howard, Butler and Jones that they should take our future prospects seriously and come to us rather than one of the bigger name clubs.

Because I reckon that's exactly what happened.

I don't MB. Money, opportunity, contract length & selling the move back to civilisation would be infinitely more persuasive than Dan's 5 game injury riddled season which included him stepping away from the Leadership Group could possibly have been.

[Toy Saint]

Luke Dunstan should be in this discussion, I probably have him ahead of both Seb & Hannebery.

[Sanctorum]

When you are a bottom 6 club you need guys who keep the rest of the team honest by putting in effort week on week.
Ross is just such a player.
But if you aspire to be top 6 you need guys who are highly skilled as well.
St Kilda has recruited such players.

Once you make the top 6 you can forget about the draft.
The picks you get are too late.
They are not going to deliver guaranteed elite players.
You need to get elite free agents and trades.
But when you are a top 6 club there is no room for the guy who keeps the team honest, he belongs at a bottom 6 club.

Many of our clubs loyal servants will not be part of the next premiership team but they will have helped the club climb the ladder to become contenders.

Well said Ace, Simon Lethlean & Co have adopted precisely the approach you outline here and if Ryder, Carlisle, and Long had been available in the semi against Richmond could well have finished higher than 6th this year.