Where are we losing it?

[Scollop]

We are back to relying on poor kickers getting the footy i50. Give Ross and Jones instructions to handball to someone or to kick sideways to a lead. Both have been the main culprits in why we are turning it over in our forward half.

Does not make sense to be winning the footy to be just bombing it in on a regular basis and watching the opposition waltz it out. It’s energy sapping and it’s a formula for continual losses to the teams we are battling with for a spot in the finals

[Teflon]

Membrey is clearly NOT a no 2 forward he is at best a no 3 he struggles when the heat comes on

I think it’s rest Marshall as we’ve been doing or dare I say it....leave Membrey out play King, Marshall, Battle forward... Battle is a really good size and seems to have the fwd smarts....Roberton in down back would be nice also ..

[Secret Kiel]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

[bigcarl]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

[Secret Kiel]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

If he goes to a wing who does he displace?
He really needs to come out of the side.
I think his confidence is shot.


King and Hind out and Marsh and Lonie in with Battle to the forward line.

[bigcarl]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

If he goes to a wing who does he displace?
He really needs to come out of the side.
I think his confidence is shot.


King and Hind out and Marsh and Lonie in with Battle to the forward line.

Doesn’t have to be wing. Just play him higher up the field and move one of the other forwards - Marshall or Ryder - as the deep target.

He is struggling because he is a 14th-gamer against seasoned veterans - sometimes two of them. What do you expect?

As for confidence, that can and will be rebuilt. I’ve seen nothing that indicates the kid will not be a gun for us.

We must persevere.

[Secret Kiel]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

If he goes to a wing who does he displace?
He really needs to come out of the side.
I think his confidence is shot.


King and Hind out and Marsh and Lonie in with Battle to the forward line.

Doesn’t have to be wing. Just play him higher up the field and move one of the other forwards as the deep target. He is struggling because he is a 14th-gamer against seasoned veterans - sometimes two of them. What do you expect?

As for confidence, that can and will be rebuilt. I’ve seen nothing that indicates the kid will not be a gun for us.

Based on a very small sample size he has gun written all over him. BUT right now he is losing games for us. He should have absolutely nailed that set shot in Q4 agianst the Lions that was only 25m out and directly in front. And I reckon that's when his confindence was smashed. He would have felt inconsolable after the Lions game and his basic skill errors in the Melbourne loss would only be eroding his confidence even further. He would know that he has put the teams finals chances in jeopardy, or at least that is what the voice in his head wil be constantly reminding him of. Does he want the ball in his hand at the moment. These are questions the coaches have to decide this week.

[takeaway]

Membrey is clearly NOT a no 2 forward he is at best a no 3 he struggles when the heat comes on

I think it’s rest Marshall as we’ve been doing or dare I say it....leave Membrey out play King, Marshall, Battle forward... Battle is a really good size and seems to have the fwd smarts....Roberton in down back would be nice also ..

I would argue the opposite re Membrey. Has done well in the 3-4 years prior to this year, often as No.2 forward, sometimes as No. 1. Consistently around 40 goals each year. I think he has suffered a bit this year due to the change in forward strategy, ie bomb it to King.
His leads should be honoured more, seems to be taking more marks from leads around the wing this year, not within kicking distance. He does sometimes miss goals he should kick, but who doesn't? I haven't seen any evidence he struggles when the heat is on. I notice he missed some easy shots early, but nailed that vital one in the last Qtr, when the heat was really on.

Far from dropping him, we should be putting in an effort to be using him more.

[bigcarl]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

If he goes to a wing who does he displace?
He really needs to come out of the side.
I think his confidence is shot.


King and Hind out and Marsh and Lonie in with Battle to the forward line.

Doesn’t have to be wing. Just play him higher up the field and move one of the other forwards as the deep target. He is struggling because he is a 14th-gamer against seasoned veterans - sometimes two of them. What do you expect?

As for confidence, that can and will be rebuilt. I’ve seen nothing that indicates the kid will not be a gun for us.

Based on a very small sample size he has gun written all over him. BUT right now he is losing games for us. He should have absolutely nailed that set shot in Q4 agianst the Lions that was only 25m out and directly in front. And I reckon that's when his confindence was smashed. He would have felt inconsolable after the Lions game and his basic skill errors in the Melbourne loss would only be eroding his confidence even further. He would know that he has put the teams finals chances in jeopardy, or at least that is what the voice in his head wil be constantly reminding him of. Does he want the ball in his hand at the moment. These are questions the coaches have to decide this week.

Point is, he doesn’t have to be our No.1 target inside 50, not yet anyway.

I’d argue that dropping him would do more damage to his confidence than keeping faith. But I have a feeling that, long-term, confidence will not be a problem.

As for the miss against Brisbane, he would be smart enough to realise you could highlight another 20 moments in that game that equally cost us the win.

We were lucky to be within a kick at the end. We lost most positions

[Secret Kiel]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

If he goes to a wing who does he displace?
He really needs to come out of the side.
I think his confidence is shot.


King and Hind out and Marsh and Lonie in with Battle to the forward line.

Doesn’t have to be wing. Just play him higher up the field and move one of the other forwards as the deep target. He is struggling because he is a 14th-gamer against seasoned veterans - sometimes two of them. What do you expect?

As for confidence, that can and will be rebuilt. I’ve seen nothing that indicates the kid will not be a gun for us.

Based on a very small sample size he has gun written all over him. BUT right now he is losing games for us. He should have absolutely nailed that set shot in Q4 agianst the Lions that was only 25m out and directly in front. And I reckon that's when his confindence was smashed. He would have felt inconsolable after the Lions game and his basic skill errors in the Melbourne loss would only be eroding his confidence even further. He would know that he has put the teams finals chances in jeopardy, or at least that is what the voice in his head wil be constantly reminding him of. Does he want the ball in his hand at the moment. These are questions the coaches have to decide this week.

Point is, he doesn’t have to be our No.1 target inside 50, not yet anyway.

I’d argue that dropping him would do more damage to his confidence than keeping faith. But I have a feeling that, long-term, confidence will not be a problem.

Hopefully the coaches aren't making it all about one player. I think a coach's only objective is getting wins so if he think's a player is a liability he is duty bound to drop the player.

[bigcarl]

We are losing it due to Max King being in the side and Members not being able to kick goals from within 30m of goal. It's that simple.

Even the coach is publically acknowledging this point.

Max needs to be dropped so we stop kicking it to a forward who can't catch a ball at the moment.

Just move him to the wing for a while. Put Battle deep, or Marshall.

If he goes to a wing who does he displace?
He really needs to come out of the side.
I think his confidence is shot.


King and Hind out and Marsh and Lonie in with Battle to the forward line.

Doesn’t have to be wing. Just play him higher up the field and move one of the other forwards as the deep target. He is struggling because he is a 14th-gamer against seasoned veterans - sometimes two of them. What do you expect?

As for confidence, that can and will be rebuilt. I’ve seen nothing that indicates the kid will not be a gun for us.

Based on a very small sample size he has gun written all over him. BUT right now he is losing games for us. He should have absolutely nailed that set shot in Q4 agianst the Lions that was only 25m out and directly in front. And I reckon that's when his confindence was smashed. He would have felt inconsolable after the Lions game and his basic skill errors in the Melbourne loss would only be eroding his confidence even further. He would know that he has put the teams finals chances in jeopardy, or at least that is what the voice in his head wil be constantly reminding him of. Does he want the ball in his hand at the moment. These are questions the coaches have to decide this week.

Point is, he doesn’t have to be our No.1 target inside 50, not yet anyway.

I’d argue that dropping him would do more damage to his confidence than keeping faith. But I have a feeling that, long-term, confidence will not be a problem.

Hopefully the coaches aren't making it all about one player. I think a coach's only objective is getting wins so if he think's a player is a liability he is duty bound to drop the player.

He’s not a liability. We’re just asking a LOT of a green kid.

[Secret Kiel]

He’s not a liability. We’re just asking a LOT of a green kid.

Yup. And an interesting time at selection this week.

Melbourne proved you can turn 6 players over and win, I was certain we would win for that reason alone so maybe time for Ratts to chop 6 players, these would be mine:

King
Billings
Hind
Howard
Kent
Phillips

[saintkev]

18 intercept marks to Melbourne

May had 6

Poor entries, and yes Max did drop some that he got his hands to, but can you drop your vendetta against the kid?

Put King in the backline and give him some confidence in attacking the ball and sticking marks. Or protect him!!! He’s perhaps frightened of stuffing up and as a result...stuffs up.

[Impatient Sainter]

ROB HARDING BREAKS DOWN WHAT'S GONE WRONG AT ST KILDA AND HOW THEY CAN FIX IT

St Kilda were one of the big stories going into 2020.

A popular new coach in Brett Ratten, joined by important off-field acquisitions from the Hawthorn premiership era in David Rath and Jarryd Roughead, matched with a fantastic haul of mature age talent.

The St Kilda list management committee pulled off a three-card trick to land five trade targets – Bradley Hill from Fremantle, Dougal Howard and Paddy Ryder from Port Adelaide, Zac Jones from Sydney and Dan Butler from Richmond.

After 10 rounds the Saints sat second on the ladder with seven wins and three losses, on the back of four straight wins over Adelaide, Port Adelaide, Sydney and Gold Coast.

Back-to-back wins at Adelaide Oval in the space of five days, where the Saints had not won in 10 previous attempts, was the highlight of an impressive start to the season.

In the following month, the Saints are one win and three losses, with their sole win coming over the Bombers in Round 12, and defeats to Geelong (59 points), Brisbane (2 points) and Melbourne (3 points).

R1-10 – ESTABLISHING THE BRAND

With a collection of new players, the pre-season and early home and away games for the Saints were about establishing their brand of footy.

Offensively the Saints played a high possession kick and mark game, playing on and shifting the angle of play by foot to make use of their improved running capacity.

Zak Jones and Brad Hill provide greater run through the midfield, and the Saints have established a fast and athletic crew of high half forwards, including Dan Butler, Nick Hind and Jack Lonie, as well as rotating midfielders Jack Billings and Jade Gresham.

While the Saints only ranked mid-table for generating inside 50s, their forward group was highly efficient. If unable to find a leading target inside 50, the Saints hit a long central hot spot, 15m from goal, a tactic Hawthorn used extensively in their premiership era to great success.

As a result, the Saints led the league for goalkicking accuracy, with a high percentage of their shots coming from close to goal and in the corridor. The ability of Max King, Paddy Ryder, Rowan Marshall or Tim Membrey to bring the ball to ground created great scoring opportunity for the Saints small forwards.

Defensively the Saints were well organised behind the ball while maintaining their strong tackle pressure that was a hallmark of their best footy under Alan Richardson.

From Rounds 1-10 the Saints conceded the six least marks and forced teams into chaos handball games, which suited the Saints pressure game perfectly.

R11-14 - WHEN THE OPPOSITION GOES TO SCHOOL

Once a team with a new coach has shown the brand of footy they want to play, opposition teams go to work at taking away their strengths. For the Saints, opposition teams have had clear focus points:

1. Keep the Saints skinny

In playing a kick/mark game, the Saints want to stretch the ground with length and width and create space to keep the ball in motion for their runners.

On Saturday night in Alice Springs, Melbourne did an outstanding job at preventing the Saints generating any meaningful field position when attempting to switch the ball.

On a number of occasions, St Kilda defenders looked to take the ball off the line, towards the fat side of the ground, before having to retreat and kick long down the line.

2. Control possession

The Saints Round 11 opponent, Geelong, are the best team in the competition at dictating the tempo of games.

That night at the Gabba, the Cats took 100 marks (to the Saints 51) and recorded nearly twice as many kicks as handballs. In the first 10 rounds, the Saints had forced their opposition into the most handballs and fourth least kicks in the AFL.

The Cats control game took the Saints runners completely out of the equation, and since Round 10, the Saints have conceded the most Marks in the AFL. On Saturday night Melbourne took 81 marks, the third most they have taken a game this year.

3. Keep your backs intact

The Saints’ high half forwards possess enormous speed, and opposition defenders that follow them too far up the ground run the risk of getting into a running race as the Saints charge back to goal.

Opposition defenders have found the right time to let their opponents drift up the ground into density, and hold better shape behind the ball to create delay on the Saints ball movement.

On Saturday night the key matchup in the first three quarters was Brad Hill against Christian Salem. Hill, mostly playing as a forward, would often come up to stoppages and start behind the rucks, then roam the ground to use his running power as an extra linking player.

Salem came up the ground with Hill at stoppages, then allowed him to work into the Saints back 50, while looking to get used when Melbourne had the ball between the arcs.

The net result at three quarter time was that both players had 15 disposals, but Salem had more inside 50s, and the Saints ultimately moved Hill to the wing for the entire last quarter.

4. Kill the hot spot

As the Saints develop greater connection and predictability in their ball movement, opposition teams have strengthened their focus on defending the Saints central hot spot in front of goals.

Aside from taking 18 forward 50 marks against the Bombers in Round 12, the Saints have been kept below their season average for forward 50 marks in their three recent losses.

The greater delay caused by opposition teams holding their defensive shape has made the Saints more reliant on the long kick to the hot spot.

Midfielders transitioning back into defence will work towards this target area, creating greater density at the fall of the ball and creating less opportunities for the Saints smalls to capitalise.

As a result, the Saints smalls goalscoring has dried up. After 21 goals in the first 10 games, Dan Butler has kicked 3 in four weeks, while Billings (2), Kent (1) and Hind (1) have also seen less opportunities in front of goal.

On Saturday night, the Saints goals came from talls (Battle, King, Marshall, Membrey, Ryder) and midfielders (Phillips, Steele).

MAKING FINALS

The Saints have three games remaining, against Hawthorn (Metricon), West Coast (Gabba) and the GWS Giants (TBC). With their healthy percentage, one more win should be enough to play finals for the first time since 2011.

Whether they make it or not, 2020 has been a success for the Saints.

From 14th on the ladder in 2019, they have introduced new players, established their brand of footy and seen how the opposition will attempt to take away their strengths.

Another summer of building their connection on and off field, the continued development of their young stars (most notably rising star Max King) and adding adjustments to their game should see the Saints enter the top 6.
   

[Saintmatt]

Great article.

[Yorkeys]

For the very little its worth I don't think it is so complicated or simple as "tactics rule". Our skill levels have dropped markedly, fumble and you are stuffed. We fumble much more than one grab. Skill up and learn composure (strong minds - Clark has it). We have too many small players, easily brushed off and can't sting in the tackle. You don't need many weak links for the dyke to break. It appears to me an assumption was made to give recruits primacy over existing stock. In the absence of inside intel from the club as to their excellence (unseen on the field) the use of Kent and Hind in preference to say Langlands and McKenzie (stygmatised by ARs poor use of him?) and for some time Phillips, together with the reluctance to give Coffield and Clark more attacking roles is poor player management, I think. Obviously kicking goals is our problem - Coffield in the forward line with his speed and marking ability supporting Membrey and King would add an exciting option and would show up the aimless circle running of Hind and Kent and take pressure off the other two and even Joshy B who are strong marks one on one. Billings is not a wingman, give him half a dozen chances from 50m in and he will regularly deliver 3 goal games. Geary is shoehorned into the side each week. Fair enough, respect mon, but there is an opportunity cost to wear. Rumour has it we have several excellent defenders cooling their heels in the pool eg Logan and Clavarino. Gresham is a big loss. Long's suspension has been costly - a great player was suspended and a pale substitute returned (where is the coaching to bring him back to his best). If you execute well even though sides may know what your plan is they can't stop it. Our execution and player decision making has progressively gone backwards. We have a number of really class acts but gosh they need physical and tactical support. We are playing Hawthorn next week after losing 3 from 4. You can try what is clearly failing again of course........

[Waltzing St Kilda]

We got smashed by ground ball in forward line. They kept taking it out with ease, when May wasn’t marking it.

Yup.

Hard to avoid the feeling that the tall forwards have been instructed to "bring it to ground -- just bring it to ground. That's all you need to do."

So they bring it to ground. But there's no one to mop up. Butler has been stifled and Gresh isn't there.

So the talls just stand around as it's swept away.

[Scollop]

For the very little its worth I don't think it is so complicated or simple as "tactics rule". Our skill levels have dropped markedly, fumble and you are stuffed. We fumble much more than one grab.

Inject all our players with some stuff so they can be clean with their ball handing. some good disinfectant. We need them to be clean!!

Either that or hydroxychloriquine. Or get 10 more Jacks in the team - of the Steele variety

[Secret Kiel]

We got smashed by ground ball in forward line. They kept taking it out with ease, when May wasn’t marking it.

Yup.

Hard to avoid the feeling that the tall forwards have been instructed to "bring it to ground -- just bring it to ground. That's all you need to do."

So they bring it to ground. But there's no one to mop up. Butler has been stifled and Gresh isn't there.

So the talls just stand around as it's swept away.

Members and King aren't deliberately not clunking the ball so small forwards can get a possession. On too many occasions they are getting clear of the defenders whether it's on a lead or in a contest and getting a clean look at the ball and first hands to the ball only to drop the mark.

Granted the mids and forwards haven't been as effective in pushing up to create pressure if the ball does come to ground and that may be due to the effects of the "festival of footy" and may explain why they are kicking it a little sooner and a little further away from goal. But we cannot let a tall forward off the hook for dropping sitters by reverting to this moronic call of bombing that plagues this site. Long kicks into F50 are not hurting us, dropped sitters and bankable setshots are killing us.