Scollop wrote: ↑Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:42pm
takeaway wrote: ↑Wed 15 Apr 2020 2:56pm
Scollop wrote: ↑Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:59pm
How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how
You would earn zero!!
Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?
Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.
He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.
He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?
No, the Hawks had just played
7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?
Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.
Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?
Clarko had every right to call the Hawks mediocre in 2019. It was 3 and a half years after their last GF appearance and they definitely had an aging list. Again...your debating skills need a bit of work
With regard to that last q of yours: Can you imagine another year of recycled rejects at St.Kilda? How can anyone think that with Tosser remaining that things would have been different...We were bundled out of an elimination final in 2011 remember. With all the uncertainty and changes we were basically same result in 2012....And then there was trouble ahead with our salary cap and the fact that under Ross we mortgaged the immediate future on a handfull of players.
The following will make you shudder...
Do you know why Ross made the statements in April 2011 about rebuilding? Because that's how he convinced himself that there was nothing different that he could have done to help his charges win in 09/10. Scapegoating the players helped him to continue in his career
Ross simply put the blame on the players. It was all their fault that they couldn't kick a goal in the last quarter in 2009...they should have iced the game and been in front by so far that they could just defend. That was the game plan that worked more often than not in home and away wasn't it? It was their fault that we couldn’t beat Collingwood in week 1 of 2010.
He tainted the team with his departing 'end of an era' bs because it conveniently flowed on from those initial words in April 2011...he was convincing himself once again that he was a super coach and the St Kilda list was the problem and the reason we fell short. I mean good on him. You have to back yourself is my motto
So Mr ‘career coach’ was 'headhunted' and given a godfather offer so of course he needed to remain confident in his ability to drive and motivate his next underlings
Ross has proven through his relationships with some of his best players and his relationships with assistant coaches that he is divisive. He has a use by date. That use by date was up at St Kilda.
His time at Freo had also run its course and the club couldn't afford to keep losing good staff and good players.
I can see you are not going to change your swiss cheese arguments, but we are stuck at home, so I’ll make a few more holes.
You keep mentioning debating. To me, it doesn’t seem to be your forte. You have stated that I would score zero. I think, especially if you ‘put the proposition’, ie, went first in the debate, that I would win with a score of zero. After listening to your warped, or should I say, curved, view of events, I would simply have to rise to my feet, look at the perplexed judges, remind them of what the actual subject was, and say “ni”. You do know that points are deducted in debates for exhibiting even hints of hindsight bias? Negative territory, I’m afraid.
Of course, Clarko was correct in that Hawks were middle of the road at the time, even though they had played 2 finals the year before and plenty of finals before that. He did go on to say that they would look at other players who were in form, and there would be changes. Coaches do that, it does motivate players, and out of form teams also need changes. Ross did the same. Don’t you understand that?
You should also re-read Ross’s April statement - he didn’t suggest rebuilding, but was responding to media comment during the early season that the Saints were on the way down. After all, in 2011 the Saints lost the 2 pre season matches playing poorly, and after 3 rounds were without a win. What is a coach meant to do? What happened? Ross said in the same April statement - “Alternatively I can keep picking honest players who are disciplined and selfless and try and shine again”….No giving up, no loss of confidence with the players, a few changes, improved attitude, and the Saints stormed home to finish 6th and finals. Great effort, and the April comment seemed to have a positive effect rather than negative.
After a good run at the flag, retirements, etc most teams need regeneration, and the media was probably right with the Saints at the time. I think Ross, with the motivation of a new contract, would have regenerated much better than Watters/Richo. But the big offer from Freo decided the issue, and he accepted as most people would. Freo were in a GF after one year.
Your comments about Ross always blaming the players is rubbish. Name one coach who didn’t criticise players, what else are they supposed to talk about? The seagulls kept getting in the way?
All coaches at times criticise players, attitude, disposals, game plans and execution, and they also praise. Ross was no different. He also dealt out plenty of praise, but I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative. Seemed to have pretty good relationships with virtually all players and coaches, you always get some clashes in a tough business. Going by your comment, Clarko, Barrassi, Matthews, etc etc were all divisive coaches. To some extent you have to be.
As for the GT argument, Joffa has clearly explained it with facts, and that is what will endure. RL’s are far better. I think, GT for a first time coach that barged his way into the role, did fairly well with a great list, but ultimately the game style was flawed, and not designed to win a Grand Final. He didn’t even get there. With that list, I think Sheldon, Alves (in their coaching prime), even Blight remotely from Qld would have reached and probably won a GF or two.
