Rendell’s rant

[BarryGrogan]

I also posted some time back about the myth of GT getting to prelims with a bunch of kids, it was nothing but a massive myth. When I have the time I'll search the post if I can find it. It clearly showed a great mix of mature players and great exciting talented you, the perfect mix with the exception of a decent ruckman hence the clubs call on Barry Brooks who would have been the icing on the cake from a list perspective.

It wasn't a bunch of kids as such.

It was a team with a huge chunk of its key players being 21 and under.

That was the issue. Or the really exciting part - depending on how you looked at it.

Penny was 21, Goose was only 19 I think. Dal, Ball, Kosi, Roo, BJ and KNobel were all on key roles.

That's what thrust us onto the scene. Thomas fast tracked these guys by empowering them very early in their careers.

The catch of course was, that in finals they didn't have the maturity or ability to turns things around.

I disagree that the blend was perfect. Ideally, 3 or 4 of those guys would have been in the 100-150 game bracket which would have been the perfect balance.

Our guys in the middle bracket were generally battlers or GoPs.

The above is just inaccurate,perhaps a fond clouded memory that some on here choose to believe an immature core got us to 2 prelims when it is not true.

In the 2005 we had Gehrig, Hamill, Jones, Hayes & Hudgton at their peak and 25 YO Milne on his way all a little better than GOP's IMO - Jones, Hayes, Gehrig 2005 - AA.

Veterans Harvey (AA 2003), Thompson & Peckett all played the full season or thereabout.
Mature hard bodied foot-soldiers in Guerra, Voss, Powell, Penny were automatic selections and are what you need to balance the team, mid age solid hard at it AFL players.

Of the young brigade these guys were already stars:
Reiwoldt was AA in 2004
Ball & Dal Santo played about every game in 2005 and were both AA that season

The next wave were playing consistent footy with Fisher (21 games), Goddard (19 games), Kossie, X.
Really only Montagna from the gun group was not showing the signs at that point in time.

In 2004 the young group of Ball, Dal, Goddard, Fisher, Maguire etc were a little raw but by 2005 were established guns (Roo, Dal, Ball, Maguire & X).

Well stocked in club veterans with experience and leadership still playing good footy, a group of All Australian stars at their peak and young up and coming superstars whop were already All Australian, the perfect mix with the exception of a decent ruck.

Games and age at the start of the 2005 season (start of the season)

1. Peckett – 32 - games 215 (season 20)
2. Hamill – 27 -169 games
3. Clarke – 21 - 57 games
4. Thompson – 32 - games 172 (season 22)
5. Jones – 28 - games 204 (season 22 & AA 2004)
6. Fisher – 21 - games 10
7. Hayes – 25 - games 116 (season 24 & AA in 2003/4/5)
8. Hudgton – 28 - games 153
9. Gehrig – 29 -games 191 (season 22 & AA 2004)
10. Baker – 24 – 90 games (season 24)
11. Montagna – 21 – 22 games
12. Reiwoldt – 22 – 75 games (AA in 2004)
13. Voss – 27 – 112 games (season 24)
14. Ball – 20 – 41 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
15. Gram – 20 – 4 games
16. Clarke – 1 game
17. Powell – 28 – 116 games
18. Goddard – 19 – 42 games (season 19)
19. Penny – 24 – 71 games
20. Murray – 22 – 10 games
21. Ferguson – 20 – 6 games
22. Fiora – 24 – 78 games
23. Kossie – 22 – 58 games
24. Brooks – 21 – 6 games
25. Fisher – 22 7 games (season 21)
26. Dal Santo – 21 – 51 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
27. Blake – 24 – 59 games
28. Ackland – 23 – 12 games (season 22)
29. Stone – 23 – 19 games but makes great coffee
30. McGough – 21 – 37 games
31. Maguire – 20 – 46 games (season 21)
32. McQualter - 18 – 0
33. Gwilt – 18 – 0
34. Guerra – 23 – 83 games
35. Harvey – 33 – 300 games (AA 2003)
40. Schwarze – 23 – 53 games
44. Milne – 25 – 73 games

That's exactly why I believe that 2005 was the year we would have s*** it in without the ridiculous injury list we had.

[skeptic]

3. Clarke – 21 - 57 games
6. Fisher – 21 - games 10
11. Montagna – 21 – 22 games
12. Reiwoldt – 22 – 75 games (AA in 2004)
14. Ball – 20 – 41 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
15. Gram – 20 – 4 games
16. Clarke – 1 game
18. Goddard – 19 – 42 games (season 19)
23. Kossie – 22 – 58 games
25. Fisher – 22 7 games (season 21)
26. Dal Santo – 21 – 51 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
31. Maguire – 20 – 46 games (season 21)
32. McQualter - 18 – 0
33. Gwilt – 18 – 0
40. Schwarze – 23 – 53 games

Right there is the problem... that’s the core and whilst it is an incredibly talented core... it’s young, inexperienced and generally goes on to get a lot better.
That’s 13 players right there

There’s not an argument that the Riewoldt of 09 would have run laps around his younger counterpart which is saying something. The 09 Riewoldt was carrying his team against the odds when needed. The 04 was a young gun but not nearly capable of the same feats... it’s a testament to how much better he got.
Dal, Goddard, Monty, Hayes, Gram, Fisher... all way better and more reliable in the future

On top of that Hayes, Milne, Baker, Penny, Blake, Voss are not a finals hardened core

Take Hamil out as he wasn’t there for either prelim and was started to miss more and more

Note that Voss and Powell aren’t going to be around much longer and aren’t the players they once were though still are good
Note that Ackland and Fiora aren’t that good

You’re core finals ready elite talent is Gehrig, Harvey, Jones and Peckett

Not trying to argue that this team isn’t good because it is... but it’s incorrect to look at this list and assume that all of these players were playing at their peak at this time because they weren’t. Far from it.
It really lacks experience.

[Joffa Burns]

3. Clarke – 21 - 57 games
6. Fisher – 21 - games 10
11. Montagna – 21 – 22 games
12. Reiwoldt – 22 – 75 games (AA in 2004)
14. Ball – 20 – 41 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
15. Gram – 20 – 4 games
16. Clarke – 1 game
18. Goddard – 19 – 42 games (season 19)
23. Kossie – 22 – 58 games
25. Fisher – 22 7 games (season 21)
26. Dal Santo – 21 – 51 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
31. Maguire – 20 – 46 games (season 21)
32. McQualter - 18 – 0
33. Gwilt – 18 – 0
40. Schwarze – 23 – 53 games

Right there is the problem... that’s the core and whilst it is an incredibly talented core... it’s young, inexperienced and generally goes on to get a lot better.
That’s 13 players right there

There’s not an argument that the Riewoldt of 09 would have run laps around his younger counterpart which is saying something. The 09 Riewoldt was carrying his team against the odds when needed. The 04 was a young gun but not nearly capable of the same feats... it’s a testament to how much better he got.
Dal, Goddard, Monty, Hayes, Gram, Fisher... all way better and more reliable in the future

On top of that Hayes, Milne, Baker, Penny, Blake, Voss are not a finals hardened core

Take Hamil out as he wasn’t there for either prelim and was started to miss more and more

Note that Voss and Powell aren’t going to be around much longer and aren’t the players they once were though still are good
Note that Ackland and Fiora aren’t that good

You’re core finals ready elite talent is Gehrig, Harvey, Jones and Peckett

Not trying to argue that this team isn’t good because it is... but it’s incorrect to look at this list and assume that all of these players were playing at their peak at this time because they weren’t. Far from it.
It really lacks experience.

Seriously the lengths some on here go to perpetuate the GT myth is mind blowing.
Take out this guy, take out that guy, he was injured etc GT did it with a bunch of kids blah, blah its all typical Saints excuses and quite frankly a fabrication of the truth. Rooey wasn't as good as he was in 09, well he was AA in 04 and had Gehrig, Kossie & Hammil also in the forward line so of course he wasn't the sole focus back then, we had other elite options not like in 09 when it was Roo or nobody.

The truth is we had a beautifully balanced list of gun players and very good veterans, elite mid age talent at their peak, some tough foot soldiers in the right age bracket a bunch of early 20's superstars three who were already AA and some elite kids and we blew it - fact!

Perpetuate the GT myth all you want, its a myth.

At their peak All Australians:
Gehrig, Hayes & Jones

At their peak or thereabout:
Hammil, Milne, Penny, Powell, Voss, Guerra

Veterans still playing VG football:
Harvey (went ok apparently), Peckett & Thompson

Early 20's All Australian super stars:
Reiwoldt, Ball, Dal Santo

Developing young guns all playing the majority of the 05 season:
Maguire, Goddard, Kossie, Fisher, Clarke

Not only could we not win it ...... we couldn't make a GF - FFS!

The biggest blown opportunity of my time watching the Saints.

Not being hardened finals (a typical St Kilda excuse) players didn't seem to hurt the Bulldogs in 2016 or Richmond in 2017 and plenty of others along the way.

How finals hardened were Dunkley, Bont, Boyd, Smith, Mc Lean, Johannisen, Dickson & Daniel going into the 2016 finals?

[Joffa Burns]

I also posted some time back about the myth of GT getting to prelims with a bunch of kids, it was nothing but a massive myth. When I have the time I'll search the post if I can find it. It clearly showed a great mix of mature players and great exciting talented you, the perfect mix with the exception of a decent ruckman hence the clubs call on Barry Brooks who would have been the icing on the cake from a list perspective.

It wasn't a bunch of kids as such.

It was a team with a huge chunk of its key players being 21 and under.

That was the issue. Or the really exciting part - depending on how you looked at it.

Penny was 21, Goose was only 19 I think. Dal, Ball, Kosi, Roo, BJ and KNobel were all on key roles.

That's what thrust us onto the scene. Thomas fast tracked these guys by empowering them very early in their careers.

The catch of course was, that in finals they didn't have the maturity or ability to turns things around.

I disagree that the blend was perfect. Ideally, 3 or 4 of those guys would have been in the 100-150 game bracket which would have been the perfect balance.

Our guys in the middle bracket were generally battlers or GoPs.

The above is just inaccurate,perhaps a fond clouded memory that some on here choose to believe an immature core got us to 2 prelims when it is not true.

In the 2005 we had Gehrig, Hamill, Jones, Hayes & Hudgton at their peak and 25 YO Milne on his way all a little better than GOP's IMO - Jones, Hayes, Gehrig 2005 - AA.

Veterans Harvey (AA 2003), Thompson & Peckett all played the full season or thereabout.
Mature hard bodied foot-soldiers in Guerra, Voss, Powell, Penny were automatic selections and are what you need to balance the team, mid age solid hard at it AFL players.

Of the young brigade these guys were already stars:
Reiwoldt was AA in 2004
Ball & Dal Santo played about every game in 2005 and were both AA that season

The next wave were playing consistent footy with Fisher (21 games), Goddard (19 games), Kossie, X.
Really only Montagna from the gun group was not showing the signs at that point in time.

In 2004 the young group of Ball, Dal, Goddard, Fisher, Maguire etc were a little raw but by 2005 were established guns (Roo, Dal, Ball, Maguire & X).

Well stocked in club veterans with experience and leadership still playing good footy, a group of All Australian stars at their peak and young up and coming superstars whop were already All Australian, the perfect mix with the exception of a decent ruck.

Games and age at the start of the 2005 season (start of the season)

1. Peckett – 32 - games 215 (season 20)
2. Hamill – 27 -169 games
3. Clarke – 21 - 57 games
4. Thompson – 32 - games 172 (season 22)
5. Jones – 28 - games 204 (season 22 & AA 2004)
6. Fisher – 21 - games 10
7. Hayes – 25 - games 116 (season 24 & AA in 2003/4/5)
8. Hudgton – 28 - games 153
9. Gehrig – 29 -games 191 (season 22 & AA 2004)
10. Baker – 24 – 90 games (season 24)
11. Montagna – 21 – 22 games
12. Reiwoldt – 22 – 75 games (AA in 2004)
13. Voss – 27 – 112 games (season 24)
14. Ball – 20 – 41 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
15. Gram – 20 – 4 games
16. Clarke – 1 game
17. Powell – 28 – 116 games
18. Goddard – 19 – 42 games (season 19)
19. Penny – 24 – 71 games
20. Murray – 22 – 10 games
21. Ferguson – 20 – 6 games
22. Fiora – 24 – 78 games
23. Kossie – 22 – 58 games
24. Brooks – 21 – 6 games
25. Fisher – 22 7 games (season 21)
26. Dal Santo – 21 – 51 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
27. Blake – 24 – 59 games
28. Ackland – 23 – 12 games (season 22)
29. Stone – 23 – 19 games but makes great coffee
30. McGough – 21 – 37 games
31. Maguire – 20 – 46 games (season 21)
32. McQualter - 18 – 0
33. Gwilt – 18 – 0
34. Guerra – 23 – 83 games
35. Harvey – 33 – 300 games (AA 2003)
40. Schwarze – 23 – 53 games
44. Milne – 25 – 73 games

That's exactly why I believe that 2005 was the year we would have s*** it in without the ridiculous injury list we had.

You are contradicting yourself Barry, did we have the list to s*** it in or did we not have the right mix?

Who was the huge chunk of key players who were aged under 21?

Who were the GOP's in the key age brackets?
Was it Gehrig, Hammil, Hayes, Jones, Hudgton?

What about our veterans who played the full season like Harvey, Thompson & Peckett, were they not showing leadership?

The key young guns (not under 21) were already stars with Rooey AA in 04 and Ball & Dal in 05.

None of what you write makes sense Barry, which opinion from your posts do you actually support?

As for injuries, what were the issues?
Do you recall the plague of soft tissue complaints from that era?
Who controlled training services?
Why did we go from worst in comp to one of the best for soft tissue management when Dave Misson came to the club?

[skeptic]

3. Clarke – 21 - 57 games
6. Fisher – 21 - games 10
11. Montagna – 21 – 22 games
12. Reiwoldt – 22 – 75 games (AA in 2004)
14. Ball – 20 – 41 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
15. Gram – 20 – 4 games
16. Clarke – 1 game
18. Goddard – 19 – 42 games (season 19)
23. Kossie – 22 – 58 games
25. Fisher – 22 7 games (season 21)
26. Dal Santo – 21 – 51 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
31. Maguire – 20 – 46 games (season 21)
32. McQualter - 18 – 0
33. Gwilt – 18 – 0
40. Schwarze – 23 – 53 games

Right there is the problem... that’s the core and whilst it is an incredibly talented core... it’s young, inexperienced and generally goes on to get a lot better.
That’s 13 players right there

There’s not an argument that the Riewoldt of 09 would have run laps around his younger counterpart which is saying something. The 09 Riewoldt was carrying his team against the odds when needed. The 04 was a young gun but not nearly capable of the same feats... it’s a testament to how much better he got.
Dal, Goddard, Monty, Hayes, Gram, Fisher... all way better and more reliable in the future

On top of that Hayes, Milne, Baker, Penny, Blake, Voss are not a finals hardened core

Take Hamil out as he wasn’t there for either prelim and was started to miss more and more

Note that Voss and Powell aren’t going to be around much longer and aren’t the players they once were though still are good
Note that Ackland and Fiora aren’t that good

You’re core finals ready elite talent is Gehrig, Harvey, Jones and Peckett

Not trying to argue that this team isn’t good because it is... but it’s incorrect to look at this list and assume that all of these players were playing at their peak at this time because they weren’t. Far from it.
It really lacks experience.

Seriously the lengths some on here go to perpetuate the GT myth is mind blowing.
Take out this guy, take out that guy, he was injured etc GT did it with a bunch of kids blah, blah its all typical Saints excuses and quite frankly a fabrication of the truth. Rooey wasn't as good as he was in 09, well he was AA in 04 and had Gehrig, Kossie & Hammil also in the forward line so of course he wasn't the sole focus back then, we had other elite options not like in 09 when it was Roo or nobody.

The truth is we had a beautifully balanced list of gun players and very good veterans, elite mid age talent at their peak, some tough foot soldiers in the right age bracket a bunch of early 20's superstars three who were already AA and some elite kids and we blew it - fact!

Perpetuate the GT myth all you want, its a myth.

At their peak All Australians:
Gehrig, Hayes & Jones

At their peak or thereabout:
Hammil, Milne, Penny, Powell, Voss, Guerra

Veterans still playing VG football:
Harvey (went ok apparently), Peckett & Thompson

Early 20's All Australian super stars:
Reiwoldt, Ball, Dal Santo

Developing young guns all playing the majority of the 05 season:
Maguire, Goddard, Kossie, Fisher, Clarke

Not only could we not win it ...... we couldn't make a GF - FFS!

The biggest blown opportunity of my time watching the Saints.

Not being hardened finals (a typical St Kilda excuse) players didn't seem to hurt the Bulldogs in 2016 or Richmond in 2017 and plenty of others along the way.

How finals hardened were Dunkley, Bont, Boyd, Smith, Mc Lean, Johannisen, Dickson & Daniel going into the 2016 finals?

I’m not perpetuating any myth. It’s just not that slam dunk that you’re making out it is.

What undid is in 2004-05... in 04 we were overwhelmed by the 3 time premiers at the Gabba and lost to the team that repeatedly made it deep into finals only to be knocked out.
05 it was a tough as nails Sydney team.

The Achilles heel was lack of experience and we didn’t have enough of it

With regards to the bulldogs or Richmond... Bulldogs in particular well it wasn’t the same standard of football. I doubt that team would have faired nearly as well against those opponents but I distress. That’s a different conversation.

You can argue all you want about the list being more balanced but you put the list up and the ages are there for all to see. And it stands out.

The 09 list of Riewoldt, Kosi, Milne, Hayes, Goddard, Gram, Dal Santo, Montagna, Baker, Ball, Fisher, Jones, Schneider, Gwilt... and if we’re not going to make considerations and go just on games... Hudghton, Maguire, Clarke x2, Dempster, Gardiner, Dawson and Ray.
That’s a much better team
The majority are 100-150+ game players going into their 4th final series.

Way more top end talent playing at their peak, with more experience

Never had an issue with the idea that GT underachieved... he didn’t get the list balance completely right. Trading out Everite was pbly the costliest mistake of them all to say the least.
The myth to be broken is that RL took on a team of declining no hope misfits and somehow galvanised an almost mighty ducks style miracle.

[BarryGrogan]

You are contradicting yourself Barry, did we have the list to s*** it in or did we not have the right mix?

Who was the huge chunk of key players who were aged under 21?

Who were the GOP's in the key age brackets?
Was it Gehrig, Hammil, Hayes, Jones, Hudgton?

What about our veterans who played the full season like Harvey, Thompson & Peckett, were they not showing leadership?

The key young guns (not under 21) were already stars with Rooey AA in 04 and Ball & Dal in 05.

None of what you write makes sense Barry, which opinion from your posts do you actually support?

2004 we were too young. Weren't ready.

Port were seasoned, mature and hungry. They were too good for us.


2005 we were awesome - and the comp was weak. So it was ripe for the picking. We were just decimated by the time the finals came around.

[Freebird]

After RL’s appointment, I remember reading an interview with GT where he praised the selection and stated that they had tried to recruit Lyon around 03/04’ish as an assistant.

I think about that sometimes. What would that have looked like? Both had something that the other was lacking and if they could have gotten on the same page... Reckon we would have won 6 flags.

Lyon match day coach and GT director of coaching.
I feel the egos would have been too big for it too work.
Ross could work very well under those for whom he had great respect.

So if Ross did not respect those above him that makes him right....to me that makes him a control freak no better than what you're accusing Thomas of.

Ross Lyon almost destroyed the club with his recruiting and me me me attitude as was shown when he left then blaming the club.
How anyone at st kilda has a soft spot for him leaves me bewildered...s*** in everyone at the club's face

Takes over strong sides and takes them down

[Joffa Burns]

3. Clarke – 21 - 57 games
6. Fisher – 21 - games 10
11. Montagna – 21 – 22 games
12. Reiwoldt – 22 – 75 games (AA in 2004)
14. Ball – 20 – 41 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
15. Gram – 20 – 4 games
16. Clarke – 1 game
18. Goddard – 19 – 42 games (season 19)
23. Kossie – 22 – 58 games
25. Fisher – 22 7 games (season 21)
26. Dal Santo – 21 – 51 games (season 22 & AA 2005)
31. Maguire – 20 – 46 games (season 21)
32. McQualter - 18 – 0
33. Gwilt – 18 – 0
40. Schwarze – 23 – 53 games

Right there is the problem... that’s the core and whilst it is an incredibly talented core... it’s young, inexperienced and generally goes on to get a lot better.
That’s 13 players right there

There’s not an argument that the Riewoldt of 09 would have run laps around his younger counterpart which is saying something. The 09 Riewoldt was carrying his team against the odds when needed. The 04 was a young gun but not nearly capable of the same feats... it’s a testament to how much better he got.
Dal, Goddard, Monty, Hayes, Gram, Fisher... all way better and more reliable in the future

On top of that Hayes, Milne, Baker, Penny, Blake, Voss are not a finals hardened core

Take Hamil out as he wasn’t there for either prelim and was started to miss more and more

Note that Voss and Powell aren’t going to be around much longer and aren’t the players they once were though still are good
Note that Ackland and Fiora aren’t that good

You’re core finals ready elite talent is Gehrig, Harvey, Jones and Peckett

Not trying to argue that this team isn’t good because it is... but it’s incorrect to look at this list and assume that all of these players were playing at their peak at this time because they weren’t. Far from it.
It really lacks experience.

Seriously the lengths some on here go to perpetuate the GT myth is mind blowing.
Take out this guy, take out that guy, he was injured etc GT did it with a bunch of kids blah, blah its all typical Saints excuses and quite frankly a fabrication of the truth. Rooey wasn't as good as he was in 09, well he was AA in 04 and had Gehrig, Kossie & Hammil also in the forward line so of course he wasn't the sole focus back then, we had other elite options not like in 09 when it was Roo or nobody.

The truth is we had a beautifully balanced list of gun players and very good veterans, elite mid age talent at their peak, some tough foot soldiers in the right age bracket a bunch of early 20's superstars three who were already AA and some elite kids and we blew it - fact!

Perpetuate the GT myth all you want, its a myth.

At their peak All Australians:
Gehrig, Hayes & Jones

At their peak or thereabout:
Hammil, Milne, Penny, Powell, Voss, Guerra

Veterans still playing VG football:
Harvey (went ok apparently), Peckett & Thompson

Early 20's All Australian super stars:
Reiwoldt, Ball, Dal Santo

Developing young guns all playing the majority of the 05 season:
Maguire, Goddard, Kossie, Fisher, Clarke

Not only could we not win it ...... we couldn't make a GF - FFS!

The biggest blown opportunity of my time watching the Saints.

Not being hardened finals (a typical St Kilda excuse) players didn't seem to hurt the Bulldogs in 2016 or Richmond in 2017 and plenty of others along the way.

How finals hardened were Dunkley, Bont, Boyd, Smith, Mc Lean, Johannisen, Dickson & Daniel going into the 2016 finals?

I’m not perpetuating any myth. It’s just not that slam dunk that you’re making out it is.

What undid is in 2004-05... in 04 we were overwhelmed by the 3 time premiers at the Gabba and lost to the team that repeatedly made it deep into finals only to be knocked out.
05 it was a tough as nails Sydney team.

The Achilles heel was lack of experience and we didn’t have enough of it

With regards to the bulldogs or Richmond... Bulldogs in particular well it wasn’t the same standard of football. I doubt that team would have faired nearly as well against those opponents but I distress. That’s a different conversation.

You can argue all you want about the list being more balanced but you put the list up and the ages are there for all to see. And it stands out.

The 09 list of Riewoldt, Kosi, Milne, Hayes, Goddard, Gram, Dal Santo, Montagna, Baker, Ball, Fisher, Jones, Schneider, Gwilt... and if we’re not going to make considerations and go just on games... Hudghton, Maguire, Clarke x2, Dempster, Gardiner, Dawson and Ray.
That’s a much better team
The majority are 100-150+ game players going into their 4th final series.

Way more top end talent playing at their peak, with more experience

Never had an issue with the idea that GT underachieved... he didn’t get the list balance completely right. Trading out Everite was pbly the costliest mistake of them all to say the least.
The myth to be broken is that RL took on a team of declining no hope misfits and somehow galvanised an almost mighty ducks style miracle.

More typical St Kilda supporter excuses, the competition was stronger then, 3 x premiers, tough as nails Sydney, etc, etc... all bulls***, if you are good enough you win it and though we had the best, most balanced list I've seen in my time as a saint supporter we couldn't even make a GF under GT.

I also don't subscribe to your mighty duck theory, Ross had a very good list at the top end but lacked the depth that GT's teams enjoyed. Ross should have won it in 09, we were the best team all year but weren't good enough when it counted most.

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles, can we say the same about GT?
Ross left for money, GT borrowed it off the President then refused to pay it back then hit up the club for back pay.

Ross has never publicly bagged the players, accused them of drug taking or constantly potted the club, what about dial a quote GT?

Personally I had little time for Butterrs and even less for GT, slimey snakeoil salesmen the two of them, my grandfather always said birds of a feather so its no surprise these two were best mates.

Greg Westaway may have signed the worst deal in our history and was batting out of his league as president, but he was actually a good decent guy.

[Joffa Burns]

After RL’s appointment, I remember reading an interview with GT where he praised the selection and stated that they had tried to recruit Lyon around 03/04’ish as an assistant.

I think about that sometimes. What would that have looked like? Both had something that the other was lacking and if they could have gotten on the same page... Reckon we would have won 6 flags.

Lyon match day coach and GT director of coaching.
I feel the egos would have been too big for it too work.
Ross could work very well under those for whom he had great respect.

So if Ross did not respect those above him that makes him right....to me that makes him a control freak no better than what you're accusing Thomas of.

Ross Lyon almost destroyed the club with his recruiting and me me me attitude as was shown when he left then blaming the club.
How anyone at st kilda has a soft spot for him leaves me bewildered...s*** in everyone at the club's face

Takes over strong sides and takes them down

What I'm saying is Ross probably did not accept the job to work under GT as he would not have respected him.

No fact, just my opinion.

[BarryGrogan]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

[takeaway]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

So you agree Ross is well respected in AFL circles?

[Scollop]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter.

Joffa and others on here have selective memories when it comes to Ross and how he publicly bagged his players. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrase had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

He was either a scumbag because he was in talks with Freo in April 2011 or he was scapegoating his players...who of course had robbed him of his true place in the history books. There were personal issues outside his control and we’d had a fair bit of negative press with players and then there was the tragedy with Nick’s sister. All this combined with the fact that we went so close but just couldn’t deliver may have affected Ross to the point where he seriously started doubting whether the Saints could climb the heights one more time.

Fact of the matter is that history records not only your win loss record and failures but also your behaviour and your words (as in what he said after a simple h&a loss in April 2011) and your legacy which created years of bottoming out and a leadership vacuum after his departure. Perhaps he conveniently gave up on the season and gave up on the Saints once he had secured his financial future.

[saynta]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter.

Joffa and others on here have selective memories when it comes to Ross and how he publicly bagged his players. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrase had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

He was either a scumbag because he was in talks with Freo in April 2011 or he was scapegoating his players...who of course had robbed him of his true place in the history books

Fact of the matter is that history records not only your win loss record and failures but also your behaviour and your words (as in what he said after a simple h&a loss in April 2011) and your legacy. Perhaps he conveniently gave up on the season and gave up on the Saints once he had secured his financial future.

Yep,he Gave up on them alright. Ducking prick. I remember those Sydney games in the tosser's last year. Didn't actually help the players try to win. I actualy hate the miserable prick.

[takeaway]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter.

Joffa and others on here have selective memories when it comes to Ross and how he publicly bagged his players. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrase had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

He was either a scumbag because he was in talks with Freo in April 2011 or he was scapegoating his players...who of course had robbed him of his true place in the history books. There were personal issues outside his control and we’d had a fair bit of negative press with players and then there was the tragedy with Nick’s sister. All this combined with the fact that we went so close but just couldn’t deliver may have affected Ross to the point where he seriously started doubting whether the Saints could climb the heights one more time.

Fact of the matter is that history records not only your win loss record and failures but also your behaviour and your words (as in what he said after a simple h&a loss in April 2011) and your legacy which created years of bottoming out and a leadership vacuum after his departure. Perhaps he conveniently gave up on the season and gave up on the Saints once he had secured his financial future.

It would be helpful if you could provide a link to Ross's declaration of "end of an era" in April 2011. I'd like to read the context, if indeed it was stated.

[freely]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter.

Joffa and others on here have selective memories when it comes to Ross and how he publicly bagged his players. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrase had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

He was either a scumbag because he was in talks with Freo in April 2011 or he was scapegoating his players...who of course had robbed him of his true place in the history books. There were personal issues outside his control and we’d had a fair bit of negative press with players and then there was the tragedy with Nick’s sister. All this combined with the fact that we went so close but just couldn’t deliver may have affected Ross to the point where he seriously started doubting whether the Saints could climb the heights one more time.

Fact of the matter is that history records not only your win loss record and failures but also your behaviour and your words (as in what he said after a simple h&a loss in April 2011) and your legacy which created years of bottoming out and a leadership vacuum after his departure. Perhaps he conveniently gave up on the season and gave up on the Saints once he had secured his financial future.

It would be helpful if you could provide a link to Ross's declaration of "end of an era" in April 2011. I'd like to read the context, if indeed it was stated.

what he said
commentary on what he said

[Scollop]

He said ‘end of an era’ very early in 2011 and repeated it later in the year. I’ll find you an article from google because the afl.com page which was in one of my posts from the time is not working. AFL.com don’t archive the stories too well

[takeaway]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter.

Joffa and others on here have selective memories when it comes to Ross and how he publicly bagged his players. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrase had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

He was either a scumbag because he was in talks with Freo in April 2011 or he was scapegoating his players...who of course had robbed him of his true place in the history books. There were personal issues outside his control and we’d had a fair bit of negative press with players and then there was the tragedy with Nick’s sister. All this combined with the fact that we went so close but just couldn’t deliver may have affected Ross to the point where he seriously started doubting whether the Saints could climb the heights one more time.

Fact of the matter is that history records not only your win loss record and failures but also your behaviour and your words (as in what he said after a simple h&a loss in April 2011) and your legacy which created years of bottoming out and a leadership vacuum after his departure. Perhaps he conveniently gave up on the season and gave up on the Saints once he had secured his financial future.

It would be helpful if you could provide a link to Ross's declaration of "end of an era" in April 2011. I'd like to read the context, if indeed it was stated.

what he said
commentary on what he said

That was September 2011, after the final, not April, at the start of the year. Big difference. Do you wish to reword your argument above?

[takeaway]

He said ‘end of an era’ very early in 2011 and repeated it later in the year. I’ll find you an article from google because the afl.com page which was in one of my posts from the time is not working. AFL.com don’t archive the stories too well

Fair enough, might be hard to find, I accept that. If he did say it in April or early in the year in the context you refer to, that would be disappointing, and to me, very surprising.

[Scollop]

Lyontologists!! They’re loayal aren’t they...

His legacy speaks for itself after he left the Saints. I know it wasn’t his role to structure the footy department but Fact is that the Saints were fragmented as a club as far as I saw from an outsiders POV.

It seemed that both within the playing group and on the admin and board level there were those who pined for Lyon after he left and those who were happy that he’d departed.

I see a coach’s role as being one to help unite a club and move it forward. These are not the words that a positive leader should be saying about his players

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/st-kildas- ... 1d9j1.html

Here you are...I’m sure you’ll still think he benefited the Saints rather than the other way around.

[takeaway]

Lyontologists!! They’re loayal aren’t they...

His legacy speaks for itself after he left the Saints. I know it wasn’t his role to structure the footy department but Fact is that the Saints were fragmented as a club as far as I saw from an outsiders POV.

It seemed that both within the playing group and on the admin and board level there were those who pined for Lyon after he left and those who were happy that he’d departed.

I see a coach’s role as being one to help unite a club and move it forward. These are not the words that a positive leader should be saying about his players

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/st-kildas- ... 1d9j1.html

Here you are...I’m sure you’ll still think he benefited the Saints rather than the other way around.

Is that all you are talking about? Just an after match comment after a poor loss, probably a correct call after that performance. It would have been true to state the gruelling 2009-10 GF would have some lag effect. If I was a player at that time, those comments would have galvanised me to improve. He did say, as many coaches say after bad losses, that they would have to keep picking honest players that are disciplined, selfless and try to shine again. As it was, the team rallied strongly in the second half of the year to make finals - hardly a club that had given up, because their "era had ended".

[Scollop]

It’s ok takeaway. I’m not asking you to change your beliefs in Lyontology

Anyhow...

Here we are on a thread discussing our novice opinions....after a news report regarding Matt Rendell’s opinion...

He has a distinguished career as a footy industry insider...what would he know

[BarryGrogan]

FWIW, calling it in April could be put down to a motivating tactic. You know, put a rocket up them.

However I did find the one later in the year to be very much a resignation speech.

The vibe was along the lines of 'I've done everything I can - but they're just no good now' as opposed to a more humble 'they may need a fresh voice and fresh ideas' type speech.



Regardless though, I couldn't really care that much about whether he's a good guy or not. I simply thought (and still do) that his coaching cost us at 2 Grand Finals.

He's up there with Clarkson in regards to getting his players to buy in to his strategy.

But His strategy was flawed.

Our inability to score was a problem once we'd been worked out in late 09, and he had nothing other than 'kick it to Roo' up his sleeve to address it. We were just so dour and predictable - but Riewoldt basically carried us.

His directive in the final 15 minutes when we were all over Geelong to 'bomb it in and put them under pressure' was one of the worst coaching moves of the modern era.

Geelong's entire dynasty was basically built on defending the bomb to the hot spot! They ate that s*** for breakfast.

Cost us the 09 flag.

Then his rigidity and stubbornness was there for all to see throughout late 09, and even mores in 2010.

Luckily, we were seasoned enough and skilled enough to make it to the GF in 2010, despite clearly not being the best team. Credit to Lyon for that, where credit is due.

As they say, a fool with a plan is better off than a genius without a plan.

The worst part of this was that we were getting mauled in the 1st half of the 2010 GF. Then finally, FINALLY, he made some positional moves at half time and we completely ran over them and looked like a new team in the 2nd half. These were the changes that everyone had been screaming for!!

Finally some flow. Some risk. Some dare. Some unpredictability!

We nearly pinched it. Nkt because of Lyon - but despite him.

So then what happens in GF2 the following week.....back to the same old. It was mind boggling. The same players, back in the same positions, doing the same things fhat Collingwood picked apart during the season and in the first half of the first GF.

Even though it was blatantly clear that the changes in the 2nd half were what nearly stole the flag for us - he still couldn't bring himself to accept it. He stubbornly resorted to his tired old game style and strategy.

Baffling.

[takeaway]

It’s ok takeaway. I’m not asking you to change your beliefs in Lyontology

Anyhow...

Here we are on a thread discussing our novice opinions....after a news report regarding Matt Rendell’s opinion...

He has a distinguished career as a footy industry insider...what would he know

True, and a very good mate of GT.

[Devilhead]

A most depressing thread

Doubt we could have beaten Brisbane in the 04 GF after they smacked us by 80pts in the QF

05 we were decimated by injuries and in 06 we lost Hayes and Kosi early and with a few players coming to the end of their careers and with the internal turmoil we were cooked.

Serious injuries to Penny, X-Man, Hamill, Maguire, Ball, Kosi over this time period 2004 to 2006 cost us ...... there might be more as well

[Joffa Burns]

Ross is a well respected man in AFL circles...

There's a lot of total scumbags that are well respected in AFL circles.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition

Let’s say that you are in command of one of the best lists, choc full of All Australian talent and btw...your players have proven they are worthy of challenging and your captain is only 27 and most of your best players are around that age or even younger

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in consecutive GF’s that it is the ‘end of an era’? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter.

Joffa and others on here have selective memories when it comes to Ross and how he publicly bagged his players. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrase had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

He was either a scumbag because he was in talks with Freo in April 2011 or he was scapegoating his players...who of course had robbed him of his true place in the history books. There were personal issues outside his control and we’d had a fair bit of negative press with players and then there was the tragedy with Nick’s sister. All this combined with the fact that we went so close but just couldn’t deliver may have affected Ross to the point where he seriously started doubting whether the Saints could climb the heights one more time.

Fact of the matter is that history records not only your win loss record and failures but also your behaviour and your words (as in what he said after a simple h&a loss in April 2011) and your legacy which created years of bottoming out and a leadership vacuum after his departure. Perhaps he conveniently gave up on the season and gave up on the Saints once he had secured his financial future.

Seriously scollop, I used to enjoy your input on this forum, didn' t always agree with you but respected your opinion.

Now unfortunately you are posting absolute fabricated bulls***.
Selective memories, blah blah....tell us again how GT got us to to ptrelims with just a bunch of kids and how the messiah would have won three flags if his crack head mate didn't sack him.

Ross left for more money and a better deal from a different employer, I still don't understand why that bothers anyone on this forum. Who wouldn't take a better offer if it was in front of them? Luke Ball did, Plugger did, if you get a better job offer go for it.

Bag Ross all you want scollop and hero worship GT, but the facts are the facts:
- GT got the arse from every football role and football related media role he has held in the game
- Ross got the arse from one senior job after coaching for 23 years
- GT had an unbeatable list in 05 in a weak competition and couldn't even make a GF
- Ross had a very good list but much weaker that GT's and made the GF in 09 losing by a kick and drawing 10
- No other club would look at tainted GT after he was sacked by Saints
- Ross got head hunted with a mega deal to Freo
- Ross owns GT in win/loss ratio
- Players like Rooey love Ross ( confirmed by Rooeys dad) and don't have a bar of GT, hes locked out, the old players hate him after his repeated potting and drug comments
- GT is irrelevant reduced to podcasts, Ross is sought after in the media
- Ross earned his senior role by being an outstanding assistant coach, GT got the gig in a farce because is cocaine sniffing best mate gave him a job he was not qualified for or capable of handling. He got the keys to the Ferrari but the fucker couldn't drive it

The facts are the facts, best list we have ever assembled, balanced and primed to win in 05 & 06 and old peanut butter and jam sandwiches f***ed it up - FACT!