Nick and his other Nick’s turns over a new leaf.

[skeptic]

There is a fallacy playing out that we have a poor supporter base - this is utterly baseless (forgive the pun). I am regularly shocked by the numbers of St Kilda caps and T-Shirts I see when I am out and about, and bumper stickers on cars. This is not an issue of supporters, but rather a failure to engage a latent fan base. Poor performances such as the one in Shanghai do not help our cause at all.

This is a particularly pertinent point and one that’s been brought up on this forum before. We’re not a particularly successful club and simply cannot rely on the lure of finals and premierships to attract supporters... especially given that every club generally does better in terms of attendance when they’re playing well.
When you go through flat patches like the rather extensive one that we’re in, you need the membership package to be more than just selling selling tickets to games.

Alas, as a club... if this forum is anything to go by, we’re simply not ready for progressive out of the box thinking. Many people see their membership as a donation to the club and seem perplexed at the idea that this isn’t an appealing marketing strategy for most

[BarryGrogan]

There is a fallacy playing out that we have a poor supporter base - this is utterly baseless (forgive the pun).

It's Not fallacy. It's fact.

Not only do the figures show that we have a small supporter base (the Roy Morgan report on it has been posted on this forum and on Bigfooty before) but the membership and attendance stats show that Saints fans just don't show up.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8088- ... 1908160718

Even after a decade of finals, the best and most marketable player in the comp as captain, finishing on top of the ladder and playing in Grand Finals - we still didn't draw the numbers that Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond and Carlton did when they were in the bottom 4.

And flip that, to when we're bottom 4 and they're up the top - and it's like comparing Kosciuszko and Everest.


It just is what it is. It's fact.


The other factor is, like Melbourne, is that the average Saints supporter has better things to do with their time than go to the footy. They aren't anywhere near as tragic as the average Essendon, Collingwood or Richmond fan.



The other thing is, that you never really grow your supporter base.

With Aussie rules footy, you don't switch teams. So poaching supporters from other clubs is rare. And even if you do - you'll lose those ones to someone else anyway.

The only way to increase your supporter base is to somehow find Victorians who don't support a team. These are either immigrants or children. Given most children follow their parents' team - this just increases the gap between the large supporter based and the rest.
And as for immigrants, although the population is growing - many of them can continue to follow sports other than AFL when they arrive here. Plenty will 'pick a team', but most will never be a genuine supporter for at least a generation or so.

Supoorter based were forged 100 years ago, and haven't really changed much since.

And, they won't change much in the next 100 years either.

[Secret Kiel]

Can you drop a link to the the Roy Morgan Report?

I'd like to read it.

Which teams hold the record for crowd attendance at Dockalands?

[BarryGrogan]

Can you drop a link to the the Roy Morgan Report?

I'd like to read it.

Which teams hold the record for crowd attendance at Dockalands?

The Roy Morgan report is linked above.

The attendance and membership numbers I referred to are the AFL stats.

[BarryGrogan]

The problem is that people are delusional. And morons.

With all due respect.


Smart people become total idiots when it comes to following sport.


We are a small club. And always will be.

Small clubs get the small fixtures, big clubs get the big ones. Guess what this means?

Any miniscule chance that a small club may have had of growing their supporter base - becomes nigh on impossible when you're relegated to the Sunday arvo timeslot at Etihad whilst the big clubs get primetime at the G.


It's not changing. Never will.

Personally, I don't understand why Saints fans give a s*** anyway. It is what it is.

There's two fallacies at play here:

1) We're a big club that is held back by poor decisions and bad management

2) We can turn it around


Myths.



Check this out (excuse the lazy formatting):


1997

Team Saints Blues Collingwood Tigers Bombers

Ladder Position 1 11 10 13 14

Ave. Attendance 36099 39653 50135 35614 46965


2002

Team Saints Blues Collingwood Tigers Bombers

Ladder Position 15 16 4 14 5

Ave. Attendance 26596 33679 50443 35278 45587


2009

Team Saints Blues Collingwood Tigers Bombers

Ladder Position 1 7 4 15 8

Ave. Attendance 34873 49952 54089 39497 49678


2019

Team Saints Blues Collingwood Tigers Bombers

Ladder Position 14 16 4 3 8

Ave. Attendance 29102 39471 54894 50835 48226



We're small. We stayed small when we've been good. We get really small when we're bad.

The big clubs stay big when they're bad - and get f****** massive when they're good. Even when they're at their smallest - they're bigger than us at our biggest.


It is what it is. Move on.

[samuraisaint]

There is a fallacy playing out that we have a poor supporter base - this is utterly baseless (forgive the pun).

It's Not fallacy. It's fact.

Not only do the figures show that we have a small supporter base (the Roy Morgan report on it has been posted on this forum and on Bigfooty before) but the membership and attendance stats show that Saints fans just don't show up.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8088- ... 1908160718

Even after a decade of finals, the best and most marketable player in the comp as captain, finishing on top of the ladder and playing in Grand Finals - we still didn't draw the numbers that Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond and Carlton did when they were in the bottom 4.

And flip that, to when we're bottom 4 and they're up the top - and it's like comparing Kosciuszko and Everest.


It just is what it is. It's fact.


The other factor is, like Melbourne, is that the average Saints supporter has better things to do with their time than go to the footy. They aren't anywhere near as tragic as the average Essendon, Collingwood or Richmond fan.



The other thing is, that you never really grow your supporter base.

With Aussie rules footy, you don't switch teams. So poaching supporters from other clubs is rare. And even if you do - you'll lose those ones to someone else anyway.

The only way to increase your supporter base is to somehow find Victorians who don't support a team. These are either immigrants or children. Given most children follow their parents' team - this just increases the gap between the large supporter based and the rest.
And as for immigrants, although the population is growing - many of them can continue to follow sports other than AFL when they arrive here. Plenty will 'pick a team', but most will never be a genuine supporter for at least a generation or so.

Supoorter based were forged 100 years ago, and haven't really changed much since.

And, they won't change much in the next 100 years either.

The Sydney Swans and Hawthorn are both clear examples of teams which certainly have (grown their supporter base). I remember going to see us play the Hawks at Princes Park and VFL Park in the 1990s and definitely enjoying plenty of crowd support - and seeing a lot of empty seats in their members enclosure. And the Swans lack of support at matches was obvious before the 2000s. Look at them now. Granted it has taken them decades of success to build their bases. If it isn't possible why do we both having marketing people?

I have been to many games over the years against some of the clubs you mentioned where our support at neutral venues and the G has been the lion's share of support at games against them. Morgan research polls are not an exact science.

I also remember a poll which showed that most of our support resides between Port Melbourne and Portsea, with most concentrated south of Elsternwick. A conservative estimate of our support was north of 300,000. That is a good number - our support base was up there with North's and Melbourne's and comparable with Geelong's. Support for us in finals against Geelong bears this out I think. Granted we can't match the big clubs' number of supporters but we can certainly get more of the number we currently do have to games and to buy memberships.

Finishing on top of the ladder and playing off in a Grand Final (albeit drawing one) is not the same as pinching one every ten or fifteen years. Kids will start barracking for teams who win a grand final. We haven't been able to do that yet - although if you were at our 1996 or 2004 Night Premierships you will remember the supporter happiness which followed. In 2007 not so much as supporter expectations were greater (and with good reason). As the late great Allan Jeans said - We need to win a premiership. We do that and our supporter base will certainly grow.

In the short term if we can start playing a more attractive brand of football the supporters will come - and btw my initial point was that I am not sold on the idea that playing games in China or New Zealand will help - given that our performances thus far have been absolutely diabolical. My point isn't that playing games elsewhere for money is always a poor idea (Playing in Tassie or Ballarat is a great idea) but rather that the club agree to these overseas matches and the team look like they are asleep in them. This I cannot fathom. We are told that playing in China is a great idea, but we were told that about NZ and moving the training base to Seaford too.

I always remember us playing the Lions in Wellington on Anzac Day when they were really struggling and we allowed them to just skip out to a match winning six goal lead before we even started playing. How did that happen? Not good enough - this damages our 'brand' far worse than not playing those matches.

As Sanctorum posted - the club need to be better resourced, in terms of us being able to field a more competitive side (players) and to be able to prepare that side to compete at the elite level to undertake these opportunities ($$$) if that is what the AFL want us to be doing.They did it with the Swans and Brisbane and they are doing it with Gold Coast. Otherwise it is nothing more than a junket and paying lip service to taking our game global. There is also the little matter of losing possibly the most important home grown AFL heartland there is - the southern suburbs of Melbourne, the Mornington Peninsula and the south east suburban corridor out to Gippsland. That's why we have been moved back to Moorabbin, so that grass roots support for the AFL is nurtured. We've paid our way already with our financially crippling Docklands deal.

Sending us overseas to promote the game and playing the way we have been doesn't go close to anyone achieving their preferred outcome - except of course our opposition who can't believe their luck.

[BarryGrogan]

That's just misguided and incorrect fantasy.

I don't mean to be rude, but that's the exact delusion I was referring to.

Smart, intelligent, resourceful people - lose their ninds when talking about their football club.


I don't know where to start - aside frim the above post where ut shows as clear as day that we never have drawn big crowds.

Sydney moved states to grow thrir supporter base FFS. We could have done the same if we went to the Gold Coast.

Hawthorn grew their base 60 years ago! Different times.

The fans they collected in the 80s are bandwagonners and drop off very fast. Fact: they lost 28% of tbeir supporter base between 2018 and 2019!

The other thing to note, is back in the 80s there was only 1 game on TV each week. So good teams could actually lure supporters. Now, the big clubs get primetime - not the good teams. So even when they suck, the big drawi g clubs get the eyeballs.

This is no mistake. The AFL don't hide away from their trickle down economic strategy.


The Bulldogs played in prelims for a few years, then backed it up with a flag 10 years later. Their supporter base grew by about 20% after the flag - then dropped by 21% last year!


It's a myth.


Let's be ridiculous for a second, and pretend that we can somehow, magically buck the trend of the past 100 years and grow our supporter base faster than the big clubs. Let's pretend.

Then pretend we could somehow score 10000 more than all of them per year, somehow.

Firstly, in order to do that, we'd have to what no Victorian club has ever done before and that is grow their supporter base every year.

Then even if we magically bucked that trend - we'd have do it for 15 straight years to have the same supporter base as Richmond!

So that's assuming they don't grow at all (even with blockbuster fixtures every 2nd week) and we add 10000 new supporters every year!!!

It's just a laughable notiin when you remove the emotion from discussion, and consider reality.

[Secret Kiel]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

[BarryGrogan]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

?

What do you mean?

It happened cause a bunch of people rocked up one week when they had nothing better to do.

We drew 54000 to Docklands when two undefeated teams played each other. We didn't fill the stadium.

In context - even though we were the top 2 teams, tbat game was the 18th largest attendance for the year in H&A games. And our only one in the top 20 largest crowds that year!

[CQ SAINT]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

[BarryGrogan]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

[Secret Kiel]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

That game and many others proved the supporters will turn up when we are popular. Lions were popular last year...the supporters turned up.

It's not rocket surgery.

[CQ SAINT]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

That game and many others proved the supporters will turn up when we are popular. Lions were popular last year...the supporters turned up.

It's not rocket surgery.

It may be brain science though. Lol. Think about why the stadium only holds those numbers. Maximise profit and minimise losses. We made bugger all under the previous tenancy agreement because we can't get supporters to turn up. Richmond and Collingwood would have filled it in their poorest periods and still.made a bucket. Brisbane really is a good comparison for us. Its like we are popular club in a non AFL state.

[CQ SAINT]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

Maybe you could consider corporate allotment of space and seats in your assessments.

[BarryGrogan]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

Maybe you could consider corporate allotment of space and seats in your assessments.

WTF does that have to do with us not being able to fill it?

[BarryGrogan]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

That game and many others proved the supporters will turn up when we are popular. Lions were popular last year...the supporters turned up.

It's not rocket surgery.

Oh. My. God.

Are you legit simple?


We were top of the ladder - playing a 'big club' in a top of the table clash - andbwe couldn't fill Etihad.

If that's your idea of 'turning up', what do you call the fact that as posted earlier - that in that same year when we finished top, our average attendance we 15k less than Carlton and Essendon's??

They almost pulled that same crowd on average every single f****** week!!


You're outright delusional. 54444 to a top of the table clash and you're suggesting that's evidence that we 'turn up'???! Hahahaha. f***** hell.

It's outright evidence that we're a minnow! Combined with the other facts I've posted, and surely even the most desperate loser of a fan must concede that we'll never be a big club.

[CQ SAINT]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

Maybe you could consider corporate allotment of space and seats in your assessments.

WTF does that have to do with us not being able to fill it?

Because the same number of seats are not distributed for sale. They are reserved for corporate functions.
I attend a few and can tell you that the seats are rarely full.
I just imagine that at events like A-League and NRL matches that the corporate events are busier, as they are not as common and sponsored to a higher degree.

[BarryGrogan]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

Maybe you could consider corporate allotment of space and seats in your assessments.

WTF does that have to do with us not being able to fill it?

Because the same number of seats are not distributed for sale. They are reserved for corporate functions.
I attend a few and can tell you that the seats are rarely full.
I just imagine that at events like A-League and NRL matches that the corporate events are busier, as they are not as common and sponsored to a higher degree.

My point was that given that these events held over 56k - the fact that we only had 54444 was evidence we couldn't fill it.


In fact given it's AFL capacity is 56347, NRL and A-League numbers aren't required to prove that point.

[CQ SAINT]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

Maybe you could consider corporate allotment of space and seats in your assessments.

WTF does that have to do with us not being able to fill it?

Because the same number of seats are not distributed for sale. They are reserved for corporate functions.
I attend a few and can tell you that the seats are rarely full.
I just imagine that at events like A-League and NRL matches that the corporate events are busier, as they are not as common and sponsored to a higher degree.

My point was that given that these events held over 56k - the fact that we only had 54444 was evidence we couldn't fill it.


In fact given it's AFL capacity is 56347, NRL and A-League numbers aren't required to prove that point.

But initially, you gave them anyway. 1700 unfilled reserved seats sounds about right to me. The seats were more than likely paid for but not filled. Thats called 'sold out.

Essendon and Carlton. Are they minnow club's or have they just been in a slump since moving to the Docklands. The Bulldogs won a premiership not long ago. They couldn't fill it.
Your argument on our membership is accepted. The stadium capacity and the 'fact' we couldn't fill it is tenuous at best.

[Secret Kiel]

Who's arguing that we aspire to be a big club?

Interesting to note that the template for stadium design around the world is now 50 to 60k. Even the Olympic movement has acknowledged that building stadiums with a capacity for a one off show isn't good economics.

We had good attendance figures at dockalands when we were popular and docklands is a great fit for a club like ours.

Back on China, that project is not about growing a supporter base for our club, that's a smokescreen. It's about kickbacks for the AFL and thier corporate partners. Our club is just the current feedstock for the boiler.

[asiu]

thats good then

at least it’s a step up from irrelevance

[BarryGrogan]

Don't we hold the record for the largest crowd at Docklands. How did that happen?

Is is simple really. At the height of our popularity in recent times, playing a Victorian team in a Stadium that only fits 55,000. Our supporters turned up.

Considering the A-League squeezed 55436, and the NRL got over 56000 - it's actually a real insight that we couldn't fill it.

Maybe you could consider corporate allotment of space and seats in your assessments.

WTF does that have to do with us not being able to fill it?

Because the same number of seats are not distributed for sale. They are reserved for corporate functions.
I attend a few and can tell you that the seats are rarely full.
I just imagine that at events like A-League and NRL matches that the corporate events are busier, as they are not as common and sponsored to a higher degree.

My point was that given that these events held over 56k - the fact that we only had 54444 was evidence we couldn't fill it.


In fact given it's AFL capacity is 56347, NRL and A-League numbers aren't required to prove that point.

But initially, you gave them anyway. 1700 unfilled reserved seats sounds about right to me. The seats were more than likely paid for but not filled. Thats called 'sold out.

Essendon and Carlton. Are they minnow club's or have they just been in a slump since moving to the Docklands. The Bulldogs won a premiership not long ago. They couldn't fill it.
Your argument on our membership is accepted. The stadium capacity and the 'fact' we couldn't fill it is tenuous at best.

It's not an argument - it's a fact. A top of the table clash, and we only drew a crowd that was the 18th largest H&A crowd of the season.

Fact.


A team that played finals for 4 of the previous 5 seasons, including a prelim, was undefeated on top and even though fools keep laughably suggesting that all we need to do is start winning to magically pluck an extra 100000 fans out of our arse - and we couldn't fill our home ground.

We had less people turn up to watch than turned up to the NRL State of Origin.

In that one game that supposedly proves that 'we show up', We only drew 5k more than what the big clubs averaged EVERY SINGLE WEEK!!!

[BarryGrogan]

The seats were more than likely paid for but not filled. Thats called 'sold out.

No, that's called '1700' people didn't show up.

[BarryGrogan]

Who's arguing that we aspire to be a big club?

Interesting to note that the template for stadium design around the world is now 50 to 60k. Even the Olympic movement has acknowledged that building stadiums with a capacity for a one off show isn't good economics.

We had good attendance figures at dockalands when we were popular and docklands is a great fit for a club like ours.

I've read many posts that bemoan the fact that we're a 'small club'. I've read even more that live in fantasy that we are actually a big club living in the body of a small club.
And I've read just as many that straight out blame poor club management for preventing us from being a big club.


It's just total frog s***.

[Secret Kiel]

Who's arguing that we aspire to be a big club?

Interesting to note that the template for stadium design around the world is now 50 to 60k. Even the Olympic movement has acknowledged that building stadiums with a capacity for a one off show isn't good economics.

We had good attendance figures at dockalands when we were popular and docklands is a great fit for a club like ours.

I've read many posts that bemoan the fact that we're a 'small club'. I've read even more that live in fantasy that we are actually a big club living in the body of a small club.
And I've read just as many that straight out blame poor club management for preventing us from being a big club.


It's just total frog s***.

Size doesn't matter.