Nick and his other Nick’s turns over a new leaf.

[samuraisaint]

Not really wanting to weigh in here but the argument that we lose at these types of games whilst true is a poor argument. Yes we lost at Tassie, in NZ and we were embarrassing in Shanghai.

Running away from that opposed to fixing it is what led to our idiotic decision to leave Tassie in the first. Could you imagine that from 05 onwards we prioritised maximising our preparation and getting it right when we went to Tassie. Had we have mastered one could almost have guaranteed an 09 GF win in those conditions opposed being unable to kick goals in the wind.

Underlying point... and am not sure about where if anywhere to sell games... we have to stop committing to projects and then running the moment they appear to become hard. Have to persevere

But is it a poor argument?

Don't disagree with your point entirely - in fact a lot of it I completely agree with (I wanted to see us keep playing matches in Tassie) - but it would be great if there was at least some evidence that we could turn around our on field form and make a success of these opportunities - but at the expense of repeating myself I will say this - while names and faces at the club change, both on and off the field - I would have thought that after the experiences in Tasmania and New Zealand that the club would have left absolutely nothing to chance in our first game in Shanghai.

Instead we find out that several things happened in the lead up to the match which basically took the core business of winning the game from a difficult proposition, into the realm of an impossible one. The mismanagement has been discussed to death so I won't go over it again. Some of it was bad luck, sure, but the way the lead up to that match panned out was very poor.

I buy memberships for my family and I attend all the games I can, and I did support all of the club's foray's into Tassie, on record on this very site of supporting the NZ games and I was even curious and a little excited about the prospect of seeing how we would go in China - but lo and behold once again all the supporters get let down, and the entire club is embarrassed by poor preparation. It is like Groundhog Day. I think we deserve better.

The club do seem incapable of preparing the team to turn up and perform in these types of games. The team we played in China had really struggled until we played them over there, and we made them look like premiership favorites - and I have already previously mentioned our losses to Brisbane and Carlton in Wellington. They had never played there before and we had - surely we should have won those games and won them well. Instead we got absolutely schooled - it was us each time who looked like we had never played there before.

To make New Zealand work the team needed to go out and win, and win well, instead we got beaten three times; twice by teams who we were heavily favored to beat. The Shanghai project could not possibly have started any worse. At some point you'e like to think that we'd turn things around and play well in at least one of these matches, but who knows? We haven't so far and that is all we have to go by.

And just how much money are the China games really worth to us anyway? I've heard conflicting figures.

[Secret Kiel]

OS games are solely the play thing for Austrade grants and kickbacks and commercial interests and not about growing a fan market as it is well known that will never happen.

[AuckSaint]

Hey Joffa Burns - you are absolutely correct about my comment on grabbing fans in Shanghai - a bit embarrassed after reading what I said again! I actually lived and worked in China for 7 years (3 in Shanghai) and told so many colleagues who visited not to get carried away by the population numbers as it does not automatically mean sales/profits. I had lots of senior execs from my company visit from UK/Aust and almost everyone would say..."if you only sold one product to every person in Chain, that's 1.4billion units which is more than we sell in 50 countries....just do that!"

So you are correct chasing fans for the Saints in Shanghai is not going to be easy; I was just trying to illustrate it's probably a bit more logical than chasing a tiny established small market in NZ. If you can crack China the prize is massive....when I lived there there was an EPL game between Everton and Man CIty (when they had no money) who both had a Chinese player playing, and the TV audience was just under 400 million for the match

[saynta]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

[samuraisaint]

Hey Joffa Burns - you are absolutely correct about my comment on grabbing fans in Shanghai - a bit embarrassed after reading what I said again! I actually lived and worked in China for 7 years (3 in Shanghai) and told so many colleagues who visited not to get carried away by the population numbers as it does not automatically mean sales/profits. I had lots of senior execs from my company visit from UK/Aust and almost everyone would say..."if you only sold one product to every person in Chain, that's 1.4billion units which is more than we sell in 50 countries....just do that!"

So you are correct chasing fans for the Saints in Shanghai is not going to be easy; I was just trying to illustrate it's probably a bit more logical than chasing a tiny established small market in NZ. If you can crack China the prize is massive....when I lived there there was an EPL game between Everton and Man CIty (when they had no money) who both had a Chinese player playing, and the TV audience was just under 400 million for the match

You make some salient points AuckSaint. Good post.

The difference is, soccer, or English football is a global sport already. It is kind of like the McDonalds of world spectator sport. I lived in Asia for years too and a lot of people under 35 already have a preferred European soccer team they kind of support. Almost like a trendy thing over there.

Port set it up to play teams like the Suns and us who won't pull a crowd, and who they can be reasonably confident of beating easily, and make a few bucks. The AFL endorse it because it is a bit of a promotional junket for them.

It won't work for us, same as it didn't for the Suns. Waste of time.

[AuckSaint]

Totally agree samaraisaint....Asia and China are already converted to soccer. Just illustrating what can happen if you crack the market there. Personally the only reason Saints go to Shanghai is for the extra money (via Chinese rich benefactors/AFL deluding themselves they have a "world game") and the sponsorship extras via Chinese sponsors.

[AuckSaint]

Sorry samuraisaint...spelt you incorrectly

[Joffa Burns]

Hey Joffa Burns - you are absolutely correct about my comment on grabbing fans in Shanghai - a bit embarrassed after reading what I said again! I actually lived and worked in China for 7 years (3 in Shanghai) and told so many colleagues who visited not to get carried away by the population numbers as it does not automatically mean sales/profits. I had lots of senior execs from my company visit from UK/Aust and almost everyone would say..."if you only sold one product to every person in Chain, that's 1.4billion units which is more than we sell in 50 countries....just do that!"

So you are correct chasing fans for the Saints in Shanghai is not going to be easy; I was just trying to illustrate it's probably a bit more logical than chasing a tiny established small market in NZ. If you can crack China the prize is massive....when I lived there there was an EPL game between Everton and Man CIty (when they had no money) who both had a Chinese player playing, and the TV audience was just under 400 million for the match

Thanks for the post Aucksaint, you don't contribute great volume to this forum but what you write is worth reading and its very rare I do not agree with your opinion.

A lot of my clients export to China and you are 100% correct in the allure and the comments that surround the "grabbing the 1% of the population" line that they get seduced by the possibilities.

More often than not the experience has not been positive, though being in contract manufacture the risk is with our clients as we don't own the brands.

I have no clue but guess the revenue from these games are AFL guaranteed and negotiated at AFL level with the clubs participants. The challenge is what the club could achieve with local based support. From my experience the best chance as opposed to membership would be a wealthy benefactor that might be able to leverage some benefit in Australia should they connect with a sporting team and this type of arrangement is rarely ongoing.

While the cash is on offer lets take it.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

I have been a member for over 30 years, but that's not the point. If you want us to get out of China then are you prepared to pay the $1,000,000 per year shortfall?

[sunsaint]

dont bother - some will always want to take pot shots at you
Your point is undeniably valid - while we remain a poor financial club, poor membership base, and pursue a nomadic roaming base away from our namesake heartland - the supporters just have to accept these types of games.
Regardless of any views from supporters about the worth of games from their viewpoint - the club is just chasing the financial injection.

And it is NOT some great AFL conspiracy

[saynta]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

I have been a member for over 30 years, but that's not the point. If you want us to get out of China then are you prepared to pay the $1,000,000 per year shortfall?

No where near a million bucks ffs.

made up the figure yourself did you?

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

I have been a member for over 30 years, but that's not the point. If you want us to get out of China then are you prepared to pay the $1,000,000 per year shortfall?

No where near a million bucks ffs.

made up the figure yourself did you?

How much is it then?

[saynta]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

I have been a member for over 30 years, but that's not the point. If you want us to get out of China then are you prepared to pay the $1,000,000 per year shortfall?

No where near a million bucks ffs.

made up the figure yourself did you?

How much is it then?

I wouldn't have a f****** clue but neither do you.

Way short of what you are claiming though

[Secret Kiel]

Does the AFL apply for export and Austrade grant's as part of the China deal.

[samuraisaint]

No mention of $1 million in this interview.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/10/25/ ... -explains/

Interestingly, this interview took place at the end of 2018 and our CEO said that the club had learnt a bit about how to go about this (playing overseas) and he believed it would be a level playing field over there.

The other thing that Whateley raised was that we had played Port 7 of the last 8 times in Adelaide and we usually only play them once a season. Our CEO suggested that we would probably only be playing them once a season (while this agreement is in place).

No actual figure of money was mentioned, more about partnerships and growing the club and getting a better commercial return to invest in the training program. He said that the goal was to work alongside the state government to try to put St Kilda at the centre of trade and investment to aid our long term sustainability.
It is about working with our current partners and existing sponsors, he said.

And using sports as a platform to grow business relationships.

IMO it all sounds like a junket to me which is fine, so long as the team are best placed to actually try to win the game - that is after all the core business of a football club. This did not happen last year and as a member this is my primary concern and interest.

[asiu]

While the cash is on offer lets take it.

that about covers it for me as well

tassy was the golden egg ... imo

pity about that one

[SAINT-LEE]

It will be challenging on China, no doubt.
But American sports are investing 100's millions in China and some sports have a 20 year plan already.

Basketball.
It's not as global as other sports but it is played a lot.
The NBA is investing heavily and reaping rewards.

Baseball is also investing heavily.

The NFL is running summer camps and sponsoring local leagues.

We have a key to open the door....women.

The NBA started a womens league and in their business plan mention the crucial growth of a male gender based sport. Adding a womens league invites half the world's population to play.

The AFL has a womens league. China has so many more women than men. Start Auskick, get the Shanghai Saints club rolling.
Let boys and girls grow up playing together and foster a love for the game.

There is real potential


AFL is played in very very few places. But clever marketing and planning could see the AFL placed amongst the other "new" sports as an option.

[asiu]

nice read

ta.

(i can feel it)

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

I have been a member for over 30 years, but that's not the point. If you want us to get out of China then are you prepared to pay the $1,000,000 per year shortfall?

No where near a million bucks ffs.

made up the figure yourself did you?

How much is it then?

I wouldn't have a f****** clue but neither do you.

Way short of what you are claiming though

No need to swear saynta.

Even if it is only $500,000 then we we pull out as you suggested then you will agree to make up the $500,000 every year correct?

[saynta]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

I already financially support the club, china. Do you?

I have been a member for over 30 years, but that's not the point. If you want us to get out of China then are you prepared to pay the $1,000,000 per year shortfall?

No where near a million bucks ffs.

made up the figure yourself did you?

How much is it then?

I wouldn't have a f****** clue but neither do you.

Way short of what you are claiming though

No need to swear saynta.

Even if it is only $500,000 then we we pull out as you suggested then you will agree to make up the $500,000 every year correct?

You are like a f****** dog with a bone with your infantile suggestion. Get a life FFS.

[samuraisaint]

dont bother - some will always want to take pot shots at you
Your point is undeniably valid - while we remain a poor financial club, poor membership base, and pursue a nomadic roaming base away from our namesake heartland - the supporters just have to accept these types of games.
Regardless of any views from supporters about the worth of games from their viewpoint - the club is just chasing the financial injection.

And it is NOT some great AFL conspiracy

Agree 100% on both accounts BUT at some point, we need to put the pedal to the metal and actually win one of them, and this can only be achieved by preparing properly for them, which we are obviously not doing.

Two other clubs who have sold home games and performed as poorly as us in them; Richmond and Melbourne, have had vastly different outcomes - Richmond stopped selling off home games and upsetting their members and support base and won two flags - Melbourne keep doing it for the money like us and keep getting the same outcomes as we do.

Selling home games for money is bush league and best left to the Gold Coast Suns, not a Foundation Club like us but if, as you say, we must, then the club needs to start taking these matches far more seriously than they have been. We should have done a whole lot better in China last season. I am not going to forget that farce in a hurry, and I recommend that the rest of the members and rusted-on supporters don't either.

[CQ SAINT]

Currently, I believe the onus for raising revenue to fund the match in Shanghai lies with Port Adelaide and the AFL. At under 12000 capacity the game should sell out. 5000 Aussies travelled last year. St.Kilda would be smart to invest in good value travel deals to get numbers there, while soliciting sponsorship deals from the tourism and travel sectors with a focus on long term viability and popularity for the match.
Port raised $4m in new sponsorship from 12 sponsors of which 5 have pledged major sponsorship from last year's game. Our takings, while the actual figures are illusive, would have been much much higher than a Port game at Marvel. This is the bottom line.atm. Sitting idle and watching another struggling club do it does not make sense.
However an internal.focus this year on preparing for and winning the game would be huge for us and the possibility of future sponsorship dollars from our involvement.
Who believes we would have won the game in Melbourne last year? Anyone?
Developing a Stadium in Auckland that can cater for 15,000 with potential to grow wouldn't be out of the question, surely? But currently a focus on Shanghai and Moorabbin must be a priority.

[desertsaint]

We may have the best spectator sport in the world. but need to stop deluding ourselves that there's a viable market outside australia. heck we can't even take over the first and third most populous states here.
soccer is entrenched in asia, and if any other football code was to get a hold it is most likely rugby union. played worldwide with a fantastic world cup, and last year in japan showed that asian teams can become reasonably successful and that there's is a local apetite. wha a great world cup it was.
China is affiliated with the irb and whilst currently the mens team is ranked 80 and the women 24, all it takes is money and motivation and do what all teams, and what new zealand itself does, and plunder the pacific nations for talent.

meanwhile, If we can eke out profit from an annual game overseas why not? but this deal currently with port is all in their favour.
we blew tassie, but hopefully there will be a tassie team put in soon and it'll all be moot anyway.

[Sanctorum]

This has been a fascinating discussion and my take from the overseas ventures by St Kilda is that the club has been vastly under-resourced and ill-prepared to meet the standard required to win any of these games. To expose players to unhygienic food when they were getting ready to play in Shanghai last year was unforgivable and an indictment on the club personnel responsible for the player's welfare.

I also believe that the AFL should be far more pro-active in their support for the teams that play overseas - it is after all a showcase game to sell the code to an entirely uninitiated market. One-sided affairs such as have been the case in the 3 games played in China would have been quite humiliating for the AFL Commission and it's CEO, and would have done little to attract either crowd interest or commercial sponsorship. So I would hope and expect that St Kilda FC mount a strong argument to the AFL to ramp up its financial support to enable the club to be far better prepared for the 2020 contest against Port Power. This is after all a thrust to spread the code to a market that has huge potential in terms of development of AFL to the Chinese, a burden that should really rest entirely with the AFL, rather than the clubs that have limited financial resources to do so. Just imagine the boost to the AFL's TV broadcast rights if China becomes part of the future market, it'll be massive!!

[samuraisaint]

Well played Sanctorum! Sir, if I could like this post twice then I would have!

Our efforts in New Zealand were also well below par and this was despite the fact that we played two sides out of the three who we would have been usually expected to beat at that time. Interestingly however is that we also played the Swans, a side with a COLA allowance at that time and pretty much unfettered access to a state academy. If we are to give up a home game each year to play in a lucrative market then shouldn't we have access to some top up talent so that these fiascos are not repeated annually? We are basically giving a leg up to our competition at our expense by agreeing to this very poor deal. We have already been paying more than our fair share for the Docklands stadium for twenty years.

We are only in the position of playing in China due to a glitch in the fixture which sees us play Port in Adelaide every season, and the only time we seemed to play them twice in a season was when we played them in Tasmania anyway. This was alluded to in an interview which I have posted a link to. Sure they would probably beaten us anyway, but it certainly hasn't been made any easier for us.

There is a fallacy playing out that we have a poor supporter base - this is utterly baseless (forgive the pun). I am regularly shocked by the numbers of St Kilda caps and T-Shirts I see when I am out and about, and bumper stickers on cars. This is not an issue of supporters, but rather a failure to engage a latent fan base. Poor performances such as the one in Shanghai do not help our cause at all.

On the subject of our performances overseas; consider these things which occurred in the lead up to this important match - not all of these are St Kilda's fault btw;
you have already mentioned the food fiasco so I won't go over that again - suffice to say the Port Adelaide team were given a strict diet of toasted cheese and tomato sandwiches and coke zero, our captain who had had an extensive layoff due to compartment syndrome rushed back into the side knowing full well he would have to sit in a plane for over ten hours before playing his first game back in months and then breaks his leg in that match; it was reported that apparently an ill player traveled over with the squad in a pressurized plane cabin with the rest of his teammates thereby exposing the rest of the players to this illness right before a highly promoted game, and the coup de grace - according to the commentary on the day, 400 influential supporters/business interests taken on coaches to the wrong stadium across the other side of Shanghai.


As a member I could not believe these things were allowed to happen. This is elite sport. Where are our processes?