Nick and his other Nick’s turns over a new leaf.

[asiu]

wow

cool.

[SaintPav]

Just checked my PM.

Still no apology.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

I would be happy if we played in Shanghai once a year before the bye. No problem with that. Why not have both China and New Zealand (2 games). That's 3 games overseas every year. The Hawks have been playing 4 games a year in Tassie for yonks. We do this (properly), and we will never be in debt again.

And by the way, this is exactly what I told Finnis at the open day in Feb 2018. I saw him speaking to a couple of people so I went over hoping to speak to him as well. And I did for about 5 minutes. He is very approachable.

[AuckSaint]

Like your enthusiasm for bringing the game to NZ. However, I have to point out bringing the game here doesn't automatically equate to $ in the St Kilda coffers. See below from The Spinoff blog 2017 as part of an article about the NZ Aussie Rules team....


When the Saints signed a 2012 deal with the Wellington City Council to bring games to the capital, it was hailed as a new dawn for the sport in New Zealand. AFL bosses eyed an expansion market of 4 million people; hotels and bars imagined packed houses of Australian tourists. The deal was for five years.


SYDNEY SWANS STAR ADAM GOODES AT WESTPAC STADIUM, 2013. (PHOTO: GETTY IMAGES)

In the first year, there wasn’t a spare bed in the city. 22,500 fans brought rare colour and life to Westpac Stadium. The Saints lost narrowly to the reigning champion Sydney Swans. A year later, the Saints lost again, in front of 9,000 fewer fans. Another drop in attendance came in 2015, and a bailout clause in the deal was hastily discovered. The Saints skipped town, with barely a trace of ever being there at all.

The bottom line was the Wellington City Council underwrote the project on the promise of tens of thousands of tourists/supported arriving over the ditch and staying/spending money in Wellington. However, after the third year they cut their (assumed) losses and pulled the deal. The AFL didn't pay the Saints, the council did. Similarly I'm sure it's the same in China.

As I said I appreciate the enthusiasm for the NZ matches; I'm just unsure where the money is going to come from. The Auckland council won't even commit to upgrading the oval at Western Springs. I don't think they'll contribute a cent until at least that's done.

[AuckSaint]

Sorry my underlining skills aren't up to it!

Here's the article sections in legible type.....

When the Saints signed a 2012 deal with the Wellington City Council to bring games to the capital, it was hailed as a new dawn for the sport in New Zealand. AFL bosses eyed an expansion market of 4 million people; hotels and bars imagined packed houses of Australian tourists. The deal was for five years.


SYDNEY SWANS STAR ADAM GOODES AT WESTPAC STADIUM, 2013. (PHOTO: GETTY IMAGES)

In the first year, there wasn’t a spare bed in the city. 22,500 fans brought rare colour and life to Westpac Stadium. The Saints lost narrowly to the reigning champion Sydney Swans. A year later, the Saints lost again, in front of 9,000 fewer fans. Another drop in attendance came in 2015, and a bailout clause in the deal was hastily discovered. The Saints skipped town, with barely a trace of ever being there at all.

[Sanctorum]

One game on ANZAC day and one game to coincide
with our school holidays and the ski season. This would
be the perfect scenario. Obviously the AFL would
need to guarantee us plenty of dollars and so Auckland.
We don’t need to establish a foothold. What we will
do is make sure all the new immigrants from NZ when
they get to Australia they will automatically barrack
for St Kilda and all the kiwis that are currently living
here already who don’t follow the footy may decide to
have a look as they may feel it is their team now.
The benefits are endless but we will need to be patient.
Small gains every year is fine by me. It may take 10 years
to have 5,000 kiwi based members. That’s ok. We might
convert 2,000 Aussie based kiwis but that could also
take 10 years. That’s fine and I would be more than
happy with that.

If you are genuine in your resolve to stay on the "straight and narrow" on this forum Nick then that is really commendable, I hope you make a lot of positive comments henceforth, and don't get sucked in by provocateurs!

I actually agree with the case you have made for St Kilda to claim New Zealand on behalf of the AFL. The lack of success in previous games played in Wellington is immaterial to the medium to long term prospects of the Saints playing for premiership points over there - I tend to think that the previous venture was completely under resourced and showed bugger all commitment from the AFL.

In order for St Kilda to succeed in NZ, the AFL needs to give some really serious undertakings to underwrite St Kilda's permanent-part time presence across the ditch.

1. Provide significant financial support to the club to establish a permanent base in Auckland, including the establishment of a social club (Kiwi Saints) which will serve as a permanent hub for local supporters. Offer discount membership fees and the locals will be sure to come on board.

2. Assist the club to employ experienced football people to take the game into local schools and organise junior competitions - let all school age kids attend the 2 annual games (as suggested by Nick) free of charge and low prices for adults.

3. Ensure that the 2 games are played at a time that gives maximum exposure on TV - say 8 pm local time which is 6 pm EST, and avoid head to head clash with other fixtures on those days.

4. As time goes on, I expect the club could opt to play more than 2 games in Auckland.

The AFL (and St Kilda) should treat this venture in the same way as the establishment of GWS and Gold Coast Suns. It is a long term project to spread the game to our Kiwi cousins, with the obvious reward that it will boost the AFL's broadcast negotiations significantly, and in due course increase the player pool from NZ recruits.

Finally, I don't think the same argument can be made for Shanghai, just consider the comparative flight times:

Melbourne - Auckland: 3 hours 35 minutes
Melbourne - Shanghai: 10 hours 35 minutes

And as a matter of interest:

Melbourne - Perth: 4 hours 10 minutes

Whilst it is undeniable that Kiwis are totally obsessed with Rugby Union, if the AFL are serious about taking the game over there, they have a lot more financial clout than the NZRU. Money talks and I have not the slightest doubt that eventually this will become a huge success for both the AFL and St Kilda FC.

[Secret Kiel]

Expansion projects into NZ and China are all about kick backs. Think carbon credits.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

One game on ANZAC day and one game to coincide
with our school holidays and the ski season. This would
be the perfect scenario. Obviously the AFL would
need to guarantee us plenty of dollars and so Auckland.
We don’t need to establish a foothold. What we will
do is make sure all the new immigrants from NZ when
they get to Australia they will automatically barrack
for St Kilda and all the kiwis that are currently living
here already who don’t follow the footy may decide to
have a look as they may feel it is their team now.
The benefits are endless but we will need to be patient.
Small gains every year is fine by me. It may take 10 years
to have 5,000 kiwi based members. That’s ok. We might
convert 2,000 Aussie based kiwis but that could also
take 10 years. That’s fine and I would be more than
happy with that.

If you are genuine in your resolve to stay on the "straight and narrow" on this forum Nick then that is really commendable, I hope you make a lot of positive comments henceforth, and don't get sucked in by provocateurs!

I actually agree with the case you have made for St Kilda to claim New Zealand on behalf of the AFL. The lack of success in previous games played in Wellington is immaterial to the medium to long term prospects of the Saints playing for premiership points over there - I tend to think that the previous venture was completely under resourced and showed bugger all commitment from the AFL.

In order for St Kilda to succeed in NZ, the AFL needs to give some really serious undertakings to underwrite St Kilda's permanent-part time presence across the ditch.

1. Provide significant financial support to the club to establish a permanent base in Auckland, including the establishment of a social club (Kiwi Saints) which will serve as a permanent hub for local supporters. Offer discount membership fees and the locals will be sure to come on board.

2. Assist the club to employ experienced football people to take the game into local schools and organise junior competitions - let all school age kids attend the 2 annual games (as suggested by Nick) free of charge and low prices for adults.

3. Ensure that the 2 games are played at a time that gives maximum exposure on TV - say 8 pm local time which is 6 pm EST, and avoid head to head clash with other fixtures on those days.

4. As time goes on, I expect the club could opt to play more than 2 games in Auckland.

The AFL (and St Kilda) should treat this venture in the same way as the establishment of GWS and Gold Coast Suns. It is a long term project to spread the game to our Kiwi cousins, with the obvious reward that it will boost the AFL's broadcast negotiations significantly, and in due course increase the player pool from NZ recruits.

Finally, I don't think the same argument can be made for Shanghai, just consider the comparative flight times:

Melbourne - Auckland: 3 hours 35 minutes
Melbourne - Shanghai: 10 hours 35 minutes

And as a matter of interest:

Melbourne - Perth: 4 hours 10 minutes

Whilst it is undeniable that Kiwis are totally obsessed with Rugby Union, if the AFL are serious about taking the game over there, they have a lot more financial clout than the NZRU. Money talks and I have not the slightest doubt that eventually this will become a huge success for both the AFL and St Kilda FC.

Great post Sanctorum.

As you said, the AFL would need to get on board and underwrite the game ie marketing dollars and say $400,000 to the Saints for each game played in NZ. Then we would need Auckland to match the $400,000 but the hardest part is to make sure all our supporters get down to at least one game per year. ANZAC day I am confident we can get a good crowd. The second game as I said previously, you would schedule it during the school holidays (during the ski season), which is late June to mid July. This would a great trip for us skiers to be able to take a holiday, watch the Saints and ski on NZ's magnificent slopes.

[asiu]

gaz reckons

the New Nick
should erase that old ‘signature’

[Nick_BlueNRG]

gaz reckons

the New Nick
should erase that old ‘signature’

Done, sort of.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

https://www.coxarchitecture.com.au/proj ... pt-design/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/a ... d=12204293

[AuckSaint]

...but Auckland CIty Council can'e even make the decision to progress the redevelopment.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/112695 ... s-decision

[AuckSaint]

A key part of the development involves moving speedway to South Auckland (and speedway don't want to move) and moving Warriors Rugby League from Mt Smart to Eden Park (and Warriors don't want to move to Eden Park). Eden Park is running at a multi million dollar loss (underwritten by the council) due to the fact it is under used due to it's inability to have concerts due to neighbourhood lobby groups.

Sorry for all this boring background, but I'm just trying to illustrate the fact there are a lot of things needed to be sorted out before Saints even get a place to even contemplate playing in Auckland....

[saynta]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

[samuraisaint]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

I would be happy if we played in Shanghai once a year before the bye. No problem with that. Why not have both China and New Zealand (2 games). That's 3 games overseas every year. The Hawks have been playing 4 games a year in Tassie for yonks. We do this (properly), and we will never be in debt again.

Because we'd lose 3 matches every year we can't afford to lose - and when we are back in contention again, those three matches will make a big difference to our finals chances. The president said that he would put the focus back on playing footy again and that's what he should stick to.

We aren't Hawthorn - we should have made Launceston work but despite all of the benefits we even stuffed Tassie up

The Shanghai game was a dead set embarrassment to the club - if memory serves me correctly we even had players tweeting stuff about 'what's going on' over there due to illnesses before we had even played.

[samuraisaint]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

I'm with you saynta. This Shanghai match is an absolute farce which can only benefit Port Adelaide - if we turned up ready to play when we go across water, then maybe fine, but we don't and this has been a historical issue with club and team for forty years going back to 1980 when we played a Richmond team in a new market (Sydney at the SCG) and lost by 26 goals. Up until that point we had played reasonably well against Richmond for several years before that match.

As I have said before the only reason we are doing this is because the club don't want to play Port over here because they don't draw a crowd, and if we are struggling then we won't either making the game a potential financial loss. My answer to that is; we need to start winning - and we are not going to win in Shanghai.

[samuraisaint]

Selling games overseas requires a lot of AFL support to make sure it works, like giving us priority draft picks, access to zone academies and COLA to boost our playing stocks thereby making us seriously competitive again, like they gave Gold Coast, GWS and Sydney.

Because that is what it will take. At the moment, and going by what I saw in Hobart last year against North, I wouldn't bet on us to beat any team at all away from Melbourne, and with poor performances comes poor crowds and no support. And not a lot in the way of sponsorship either.

Nope, Tassie was the best chance we had and we couldn't even make that work with an extremely talented team. After that I would've suggested Ballarat.

We are one of a few clubs who struggle to make these things work. Back to basics - playing footy.

(And I was a fervent believer in us playing matches in Tassie as far back as 1991 when we played the 'Roys there, and supported the NZ experiment at the time, but no longer.)

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Never going to happen and thank the lord for that. Now, how do we get out of the China deal?


You think the air in Melbourne is bad at the moment? It is worse than that in Shanghai all year round.

And if we get out of the China deal saynta I'm sure you will gladly make up $1mill shortfall every year?

[Nick_BlueNRG]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

I would be happy if we played in Shanghai once a year before the bye. No problem with that. Why not have both China and New Zealand (2 games). That's 3 games overseas every year. The Hawks have been playing 4 games a year in Tassie for yonks. We do this (properly), and we will never be in debt again.

Because we'd lose 3 matches every year we can't afford to lose - and when we are back in contention again, those three matches will make a big difference to our finals chances. The president said that he would put the focus back on playing footy again and that's what he should stick to.

We aren't Hawthorn - we should have made Launceston work but despite all of the benefits we even stuffed Tassie up

The Shanghai game was a dead set embarrassment to the club - if memory serves me correctly we even had players tweeting stuff about 'what's going on' over there due to illnesses before we had even played.

So samuraisaint, how can you possibly say that we would lose all 3 games every year? You have not given a valid reason at all. You just don't like the idea because you don't like the idea.

[samuraisaint]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

I would be happy if we played in Shanghai once a year before the bye. No problem with that. Why not have both China and New Zealand (2 games). That's 3 games overseas every year. The Hawks have been playing 4 games a year in Tassie for yonks. We do this (properly), and we will never be in debt again.

Because we'd lose 3 matches every year we can't afford to lose - and when we are back in contention again, those three matches will make a big difference to our finals chances. The president said that he would put the focus back on playing footy again and that's what he should stick to.

We aren't Hawthorn - we should have made Launceston work but despite all of the benefits we even stuffed Tassie up

The Shanghai game was a dead set embarrassment to the club - if memory serves me correctly we even had players tweeting stuff about 'what's going on' over there due to illnesses before we had even played.

So samuraisaint, how can you possibly say that we would lose all 3 games every year? You have not given a valid reason at all. You just don't like the idea because you don't like the idea.

Yes I have. I have given the most valid reason of all; exposed form. We have played poorly in Tas, which the club recognised and then gave up on, NZ, which the club recognised and then pulled out of, and in our only China game so far. Port were struggling for form badly before that match. We played into their hands with poor selection and even poorer team management.

I have also given other examples such as our inability to turn up interstate as to why the China games are a bad idea. I am not sure that we earn anything like $1 million to play in China either. I heard a figure of half that - and that some of our expenses come out of even that figure. Maybe that figure is incorrect.

Our performances in new territories have always been awful and this is not a good thing for the club's profile. Honestly, who in their right mind, new to the sport, who we are trying to convert into Aussie rules fans, would want to support a club who plays the way we play when we play at these new venues?

[Nick_BlueNRG]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

I would be happy if we played in Shanghai once a year before the bye. No problem with that. Why not have both China and New Zealand (2 games). That's 3 games overseas every year. The Hawks have been playing 4 games a year in Tassie for yonks. We do this (properly), and we will never be in debt again.

Because we'd lose 3 matches every year we can't afford to lose - and when we are back in contention again, those three matches will make a big difference to our finals chances. The president said that he would put the focus back on playing footy again and that's what he should stick to.

We aren't Hawthorn - we should have made Launceston work but despite all of the benefits we even stuffed Tassie up

The Shanghai game was a dead set embarrassment to the club - if memory serves me correctly we even had players tweeting stuff about 'what's going on' over there due to illnesses before we had even played.

So samuraisaint, how can you possibly say that we would lose all 3 games every year? You have not given a valid reason at all. You just don't like the idea because you don't like the idea.

Yes I have. I have given the most valid reason of all; exposed form. We have played poorly in Tas, which the club recognised and then gave up on, NZ, which the club recognised and then pulled out of, and in our only China game so far.

I have also given other examples such as our inability to turn up interstate as to why thwe China games are a dumb idea. I am not sure that we earn anything like $1 million to play in China either. I heard a figure of half that - and that some of our expenses come out of even that figure.

Our performances in new territories have always been awful and this is not a good thing for the club's profile. Honestly, who in their right mind, new to the sport, who we are trying to convert into Aussie rules fans, would want to support a club who plays the way we play when we play at these new venues?

Sorry to say but if that is your reasoning it is very silly, not to mention a defeatist attitude.

[SAINT-LEE]

qusetion..why were you so hated ? Did you purposely set out to be an ar$hole ?

Can a person accidentally be an arseface....asking for a friend.

[SAINT-LEE]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

Damn straight, Chinese have more disposable income than ever in history. The potential to find gems in a crowd of billions is exciting for our club. We should be working China hard!

[Joffa Burns]

If the club is after fans they should chase Shanghai not Auckland. With a population just under 25 million and about double that within 100 km of the city, you only have to chase fractions of a percent oF the population recruiting fans to make it worthwhile. Chasing Auckland market share of sports fans against super rugby, rugby league and basketball all in Aust comps with under 2 million people just doesn’t stack up.

It only works for Auckland if they can convince council of 20+thousand visitors coming from Aussie to the game, spending large whilst here. The last 2 years in Wellington we couldn’t scratch up 15k fans; locally tickets were as low as $2 in 2015 and still couldn’t get the numbers. Plus good financial support from Foxtel for the rights

Damn straight, Chinese have more disposable income than ever in history. The potential to find gems in a crowd of billions is exciting for our club. We should be working China hard!

I have a business in Auckland and spend some time there and could not agree with you more on your NZ summary.

The highlighted points RE China in general is why many companies have lost a lot of money in China.

They go chasing the 1% pot of gold and come back empty handed more often than not.

[skeptic]

Not really wanting to weigh in here but the argument that we lose at these types of games whilst true is a poor argument. Yes we lost at Tassie, in NZ and we were embarrassing in Shanghai.

Running away from that opposed to fixing it is what led to our idiotic decision to leave Tassie in the first. Could you imagine that from 05 onwards we prioritised maximising our preparation and getting it right when we went to Tassie. Had we have mastered one could almost have guaranteed an 09 GF win in those conditions opposed being unable to kick goals in the wind.

Underlying point... and am not sure about where if anywhere to sell games... we have to stop committing to projects and then running the moment they appear to become hard. Have to persevere